Hinoki deeper study

lasta · Mar 21, 2019

BTW about the "grab and hold", would you compare that feel to thick 5 ply balsa/kiri blades? Ie very "captive" or maybe even hollow on impact. Personally, I hate that, but very thick, even soft mono-materials should provide a lot of "density" on hard shots. At what effort would you say the dense feel is achieved, and on other shots, does it feel mushy?

UpSideDownCarl · Mar 21, 2019

Hinoki is great for looping. For tangential contact. For brushing. The reason is how it grabs the ball.

I personally don't feel it is very good for flat hitting. It is slower and less responsive on direct contact.

If you are using short pips, you are not brushing, you are not looping, you are not making tangential contact. I think you would be better with woods like Koto, Walnut, Rosewood, Ebony....any hard top ply. Those woods will also help you differentiate between the shots you intend to be completely flat (low spin) and the ones where you spin some.

Old school Chinese and Korean players did use SP with Hinoki. But it was not necessarily because it made sense. It was what they thought the biggest, most powerful gun was back then. Now there are better tools.

See if you can find someone with an Ebenholz and try that out. I think that will be much more useful to your SP than Hinoki.

lasta · Mar 21, 2019

Thanks Carl, very informative exchange, and you just saved me enough money to buy 3 more blades

.

I have tried the Ebenholz, and own a Gatien Absolum. These are great for crisp blocks, but the contrast of hard outer+softer core gives the impression of hollowness/softness and loss of power on high impact. Still prefer multi-ply single materials for the linear and dense feel.

Kaizoku · May 3, 2019

I got a question. Have you tried treiber z or treiber fo (or Fi) offensive
What blade would you consider closest to Andro treiber z? And how would the three others compare? You can also measure material wise other than experience of course.

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Konrad Bak · May 3, 2019

Cornilleau hinotec is great for short pips. Z is one of a kind but throw is low and blade is hard with soft feeling + fast and stiff

Kaizoku · May 3, 2019

Konrad Bak said:
Cornilleau hinotec is great for short pips. Z is one of a kind but throw is low and blade is hard with soft feeling + fast and stiff

You're saying there is not made any similar blades to treiber z? I mean andro treiber fo of is an 'upgrade' with just a new composite material. (that made the blade slightly faster than treiber z)

But surely blades with hinoki and two composite veneers should be able compare to treiber z in playing characteristics. Aye?
For it to be one of a kind it has to be a unique unused composition of materials.

I have also tried nittaku miyabi btw. I found it very fascinating. But the smaller sweetspot and difference in playing characteristics was not 'good' enough for me to consider going for a hinoki one ply instead of a hinoki 5+2 ply with composite material. Also a bit slower than my taste.
But then again. That's besides my question xD

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Suga D · May 3, 2019

Kaizoku said:
You're saying there is not made any similar blades to treiber z? I mean andro treiber fo of is an 'upgrade' with just a new composite material. (that made the blade slightly faster than treiber z)

But surely blades with hinoki and two composite veneers should be able compare to treiber z in playing characteristics. Aye?
For it to be one of a kind it has to be a unique unused composition of materials.

I have also tried nittaku miyabi btw. I found it very fascinating. But the smaller sweetspot and difference in playing characteristics was not 'good' enough for me to consider going for a hinoki one ply instead of a hinoki 5+2 ply with composite material. Also a bit slower than my taste.
But then again. That's besides my question xD

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I'm not sure, but as far as I've been informed the BTY Garaydia is also built with Hinoki outer plies. I'm not sure if the core is the same as Treiber Z and is comparable though.
But maybe someone on the forum has been using both blades and can elaborate on that.

Konrad Bak · May 4, 2019

first, people think that Treiber Z has zylon/ zylon carbon nah. Its Kevlar. People who thinks its only kevlar they dont have all rights. Its something like woven of Kevlar and something that looks similiar to Butterfly's arylate.
there is difference in structure on lookbook
https://cdn.andro.de/andro_workbook_2017_2018_EN/#22
the difference between Treiber Z and all hinoki + carbon blade is propably throw and feeling, there is no vibration on Z version.
If you watch review CO I CI- the throw is high

Kaizoku · May 5, 2019

Konrad Bak said:
first, people think that Treiber Z has zylon/ zylon carbon nah. Its Kevlar. People who thinks its only kevlar they dont have all rights. Its something like woven of Kevlar and something that looks similiar to Butterfly's arylate.
there is difference in structure on lookbook
https://cdn.andro.de/andro_workbook_2017_2018_EN/#22
the difference between Treiber Z and all hinoki + carbon blade is propably throw and feeling, there is no vibration on Z version.
If you watch review CO I CI- the throw is high

Interesting insight. But holdup, Andro Treiber Co (composite next to top layer) and Ci (composite next to core) has higher throw than Treiber Fo and Fi?
Any idea what the top ply is for CO/CI?
I know Fo/Fi is hinoki. but Co/ci does not seem like hinoki. maybe limba idk.
in this print screen, http://prntscr.com/nkic2k according to Andro, Ci/co is better for a tempo game while Andro fi/fo is better for breaking tempo.
Whereas, Fi/fo has TXL fiber, Ci/co has Kevlar Carbon. as you mentioned.
this is the newest workbook: https://cdn.andro.de/andro_workbook_2018_2019_EN/#22

Edit:

Btw, would anyone have a comperance between the Nexy Hinoki blades and the Andro Treiber series?
Would be appreciated.

Composition for Andro blades are clearified btw:
Andro Treiber Z: Hinoki - Z fibre- Ayous - Kiri - ayous - z fibre - Hinoki
Andro Treiber FI: Hinoki - Ayous - TXL Fibre - Kiri - TXL - Ayous - Hinoki
Andro treiber Fo: Hinoki - TXL fibre - Ayous - Kiri - ayous - TXL fibre - Hinoki

I also had a curious idea regarding combining Glass fibre with this composition instead of the other fibres.
I'd imagine it would be a really good feeling blade with more spin potential but slightly less speed?
- actually Xiom Zetro quad seemed to have Glass fibre according to tt blades database. But also 2 carbon layers which seems like overkill... no?

RodneyOlson · May 22, 2019

Study study and more study!

7sagittarius7 · Jun 14, 2019

Here is a very short video comparing weight and speed of three of my blades with hinoki outer ply and composite material: XIOM Vega Tour, Nittaku Septear Feel and Darker Esteem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2KEql5b72E

langel · Jun 14, 2019

7sagittarius7 said:
Here is a very short video comparing weight and speed of three of my blades with hinoki outer ply and composite material: XIOM Vega Tour, Nittaku Septear Feel and Darker Esteem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2KEql5b72E

There is something very wrong with the test - go to 0:20 and slow down the play back to 0.25.
Its very well visible that the hand in the middle frops the ball Earlier, but somehow the ball is falling much slower.
Anyway my personal understanding is that the simple drop test tells absolutely nothing.

Kaizoku · Jun 16, 2019

langel said:
There is something very wrong with the test - go to 0:20 and slow down the play back to 0.25.
Its very well visible that the hand in the middle frops the ball Earlier, but somehow the ball is falling much slower.
Anyway my personal understanding is that the simple drop test tells absolutely nothing.

Well, it does actually indicate Speed: Darker Esteem>Septear feel>Vega tour
But other than that, not much no.

Konrad Bak · Jun 16, 2019

I thought about treiber fo not koto version

Kaizoku · Jul 1, 2019

Has anyone tried both Andro Treiber Z (or fo!) and the new Xiom ZX3 ? I tried looking for the "new vega tour" so I presume that's it. I'm wondering if it felt different and how different, majorly about speed and throw? As I don't really trust ttdb with few reviews and few rating numbers inbetween... (on ZX3 that is)

langel · Jul 2, 2019

Kaizoku said:
Has anyone tried both Andro Treiber Z (or fo!) and the new Xiom ZX3 ? I tried looking for the "new vega tour" so I presume that's it. I'm wondering if it felt different and how different, majorly about speed and throw? As I don't really trust ttdb with few reviews and few rating numbers inbetween... (on ZX3 that is)

Can't speak about Andro.

I would not say that ZX3 is the new Vega Tour. They look similar, but are not and pplay different with different feel.
Vega Tour is with Katsura core, ZX3 is with Kiri core. ZX3 is a bit faster, stiffer, crisper. Vega Tour has a better feel, its more "stable", better control and more spin.
Anyway personal feeling will depend on many factors.

nivekkan · Sep 30, 2019

UpSideDownCarl said:
Yeah. I think the continual reverting to the issue of the destruction of trees, old trees and rainforests seems to be a bit out of place.

If that person wanted to start a thread about the logging industry and the way different kinds of woods used in table tennis blades are farmed and harvested, by all means, have fun with that. But if this thread is technically about playing characteristics of a Hinoki blade or top ply, and someone keeps reverting to the subject of the age of the trees without even being able to list the specifics of the Hinoki industry....well, that is actually called Internet Trolling.

Feel free to make a thread on logging practices that contains specifics on how the manufacture of table tennis blades effect the eco system. Which woods are more eco friendly. Which are not. Do your research and present your findings.

But, if the conversation keeps going around in a circle like this:

1- Hinoki feels great when you spin.

2- they are using 250 year old trees as a marketing scheme shame on them for killing the rain forest.

3- Hinoki feels great/ No I don’t like Hinoki.

4- save the trees.

5- Hinoki feels great/ Not to me.

6- The people who like Hinoki are just like the people who kill elephants for ivory.

Etc,

Then I may decide to use my delete button.

So, please stop the trolling. And everyone else: please resist the urge to feed the trolls. [emoji2] No more in this thread about deforestation in the Amazon. [emoji2]

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Finally a sensible comment. Shut up and gimme the info of the god damn wood. I LOVE how annoying this thread became. Lol

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