The Never Ending Tragedy - Ma Long vs Hao

Bollforte94 said:

What I am curious about:

What did Wang Hao say to Ma Long after the match was over? He does not really look friendly. It was like the 2011 semifinal in Rotterdam. Wang Hao screamed 4 times and showed his fist in Ma Long's direction. There was less than 3m distance.

(At the end)

And at the start of the match look at the "handshake" between these two. Even for chinese this was a ridicolous shakehand. Maybe something happended before the match.

I am quite sure Ma Long and Wang Hao are no friends.

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He wasnt hostile against ma long, he said to him that he played really good after the first 3 sets and that he shouldnt be so sad

And few more facts for those who criticize liu guoliang being "harsh" to ma long. LGL believed in ma long when he was really young and gave him opportunities at an early age (16-17) as he saw his FH was of tremendous potential. He gave ML many opportunities and they all went down the hill. I see many people criticizing Wang hao as a loser but results show he is far better than ML through his career

Loss in world cup SF 2008 against timo boll (ok a bit inexperienced maybe, but wh was at the same age when he reached olympic finals)

Loss in WTTC semi final 2009, loss in the national chinese games the same year against wang hao.

Loss in SF world cup 2009 against samsonov, he was winning 9-6 in the last set and lost it

Loss 2010 WTTTC against timo boll (and he was winning 2-0 but lost 3-2), LGL trusted him once again and he blew it (no you know why LGL choose ZJK to face Boll in 2012)

And finally loss in 2011, 2013 SF against a player who he should crush. The loss against koki niwa and lee sang su dont count because the events were of small importance

In addition stop blaming ML's "weak" BH, his BH is not weak his mentality is weak. Check all the wins against ZJK in pro tours (not the short videos, watch the whole games!) ML is winning 50 to 60 % points in BH BH situations. ML BH is great he just doesnt trust it so much and that is his weakness he doesnt have confidence.

He needs two improve on his confidence short game and dont play so foolish attacking hard every single ball but playing with tactics and varying his game.

Wang Hao vs Zhang Jike is less spectacular than ML vs ZJK but we always see an excellent display of tactics and "magic tricks" between WH & ZJK.

Ma long is always seeking to attack and when his shots are bad the loss is inevitable. I still have credits for him he is a tremendous player, lets hope he doesnt get too disappointed

Sad times indeed...and that is when so many people can find so much time and energy to express their disapointment and disbelieve on Ma Long's defeat and very little praise for Wang Hao's brilliant win over the so called favourite for the title. Unless I watched a different match what I saw was Wang Hao coming out with a game plan and superb execution, seem to remember various times Ma long being quite frustrated on being pressurised on his back hand!! And if I may I'd also like to drop this in: - The same goes to the match between Zhang Ji Ke v Xu Xin. Xu Xin for sure the best on form player and without a doubt the most dynamic of the world's top four but then again Zhang Ji Ke has excelled himself to a level that many have taken/given as none existent anymore...and has done again in the final to hold on to his World Title. As good as Ma Long and Xu Xin are and can be throughout the season reality is Zhang Ji Ke is dominant when he needs to be and Wang Hao although now with so many finals loses he is part of that domenation. No intention here to upset 'cos the bottom line is we all have our favourite players but... ZHANG JI KE IS THE MAN!!!!

As LGL said ML's BH will crack under WH's RPB, while ZJK's BH can suppress WH and excel. It tells the difference between win and lost. But then LGL always critized WH's footwork. ML on the other hand, although not having the same level of footwork as ZJK, he can made up by his speed. ZJK is the only one who can keep a stable low stance and still move from left to right in a breeze.

Well to be fair, Wang Hao was in really good form. I mean look at his later game against ZJK. The third game he won pretty convincingly, and the 4th game, he was winning by a lot before he lost it. Then the 5th game he won very convincingly. If he had won the 4th game as he probably should have, it could have been an entirely different game.

It frustrating to see Ma Long lose to Wang Hao again, since Ma Long is probably my favorite player out of the current top Chinese players. But I think one of the main reasons people get annoyed seeing Ma Long lose to Wang Hao is that Wang Hao just doesn't get as much respect as he deserves. People kind of write him off as on a tier that is below Ma Long, ZJK, and Xu Xin. While I kind of see why they do that, for the most part Wang Hao deserves to be considered on the same level as them. Like the other three, he barely ever loses to non-Chinese players. The reason why he loses to ZJK is because ZJK's main strength is his solid backhand. His comparatively better backhand increases his chance to win each point by just enough that he ends up winning more games against Wang Hao. On the otherhand, while Ma Long's backhand is very solid and definitely good enough against most just about most people, its not so good as ZJK's to create the same advantage where he can depend on it to gain a good deal of points against Wang Hao. If you see the points between ZJK and WH, ZJK basically tries toe keep the points primarily as backhand exchanges. If and when the point changes to mid range forehand exchanges, ZJK tends to lose more of those points than Wang Hao. Compare this with Ma Long, who overwhelmingly favors his forehand. His backhand isn't good enough to get as many points off backhand exchanges against Wang Hao, and on the other hand, his forehand while amazing, has to deal with Wang Hao's forehand, which is also amazing, and better thank ZJK's. Therefore, Ma Long's main strength is significantly diminished against Wang Hao, since their strengths cancel each other.
I remember hearing some interview with Liu Guoliang, and he was talking about the three main properties of a hit: power, speed, and spin. Wang Liqin has amazing power, but his hits aren't as spinny. Ma Lin has amazing spin, but his hits have less power. Liu Guoliang then goes on and says that when Wang Hao plays at this top level, he has the highest combination of all three properties of any of the Chinese players. I definitely can see that in his forehand. Wang Hao practices forehand shots that have a level of power and spin that is hard to match, since usually power and spin have an inverse relationship to each other.

Ma long and Zhang jike are the best

I just watched the Wang Hao Ma Long match a few times.

If you watch, over and over again, Wang Hao is using that reverse serve to Ma Long's forehand and keeping it short and really low. Ma Long cannot attack it so he is trying to push it. But his push with his forehand is not so good and he really cannot handle that reverse serve. He pops so many of them up. A lot of the time when Ma Long serves Wang Hao pushes really short to Ma Long's forehand too. Same basic result although Ma Long is better at pushing against a push than against that reverse serve. And then, Ma Long starts trying to open on those balls that are too short for him to take a big swing on his forehand and he really misses a lot of those.

That is tactics.

That is keeping those pushes short, low and at a place where Ma Long is temped to take them with his forehand but actually cannot. When they go to his backhand he is okay at handling them because he can actually take them over the table. But, he is really looking to get his forehand off and neglecting the opportunities to open with his backhand.

I also watched the match from the Finals of the Kuwait Open where Zhang Jike beat Ma Long 4-1. Zhang Jike does the same exact thing to Ma Long as what Wang Hao does. The one difference I see in that match, when Ma Long does get off his huge forehand to open while close to the table, Zhang Jike is usually there and responds with a counter loop. It is a very short stroke but it has all of Ma Long's power and he gives it right back to Ma Long, who is usually not ready for his giant forehand to come back. He is often not even set for a next shot when Zhang Jike rips Ma Long's forehand back.

Here: have a look:


Before this match, I had never seen Zhang Jike have a real answer to Ma Long's relentless attack. My money says he watched what Wang Hao has done and learned to keep those serves extra short to Ma Long's forehand and realized how much trouble he actually has with the reverse spin when he is trying to take it with his forehand.

This comes from that practice Liu Gouliang has them do where they are trying to serve under the racket and get the ball to land really close to the net.


And it also comes from learning to push really short where you take the ball right off the bounce and just touch it over the net so it barely gets over and does not bounce very high at all. Very hard to do and you must have really good touch, footwork and anticipation to do it consistently in a match. But that is what Wang Hao did to control the game and keep Ma Long from launching his huge forehand attacks.

Dan said:

I was on the edge of my seat literally. I really thought Ma Long was going to take this worlds. He looked so tense from the start, it is confusing. He does so well throughout the year but at the real big tournaments he struggles. If Ma Long played Wang Hao in the China Super League or a World Tour he would play on such a different level... the saga continues...

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"Once again Ma long is out from a tournament he truly deserved to win.

Why he does the same mistakes every time after coming to the brink of winning. I am a true supporter and a very big fan of Ma Long. He broke my heart once again.
He lost to his compatriot Wang Hao , whom he could have easily defeated 4-0. Losing to Wang was not of much respect as would have been to Zhang. Nevertheless he had broken millions heart this time.

--(From a sad Heart)"

paras.oriental said:

"Once again Ma long is out from a tournament he truly deserved to win.

Why he does the same mistakes every time after coming to the brink of winning. I am a true supporter and a very big fan of Ma Long. He broke my heart once again.
He lost to his compatriot Wang Hao , whom he could have easily defeated 4-0. Losing to Wang was not of much respect as would have been to Zhang. Nevertheless he had broken millions heart this time.

--(From a sad Heart)"

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he who deserves to win a tournament, wins the tournament.

People should understand that spectacular table tennis (like ma long plays) is not the same thing like efficient table tennis (like wang hao and zhang jike play, and they give us spectacular rallies also). Wang Hao may not have the pro tour record of ma long, but he is trully a better player, 3 occasions hen won all of them no question about that. With that kind of mentality even if ml went to the final i doubt that he would beat ZJK easily as many people tend to claim, ZJK would win most likely ending this "stupid" debate. And i say stupid because he cant even reach the final how the hell can we compare players who are in a different level in important tournaments?

Whether we like it or not and believe me I wanted ML to reach the final very badly so we can finally see a "clash of titans" Wang Hao and ZJK are on a higher level than ML and XX.


Its a pity that ma long is not even in the picture in the last 4 . Something is going terribly wrong, whether he cannot handle the pressure or the coaches are not doing good job with him. But having a national team with 48 male players and a really fierce competition I personally believe that they help them as much as possible but if they fail consecutively they stop training them in particular and focus on other players. Check Chen Qi and Hao Shuai for example, they had tremendous possibilities when they were young and after some failures they didnt develop at all.

They are the same players, maybe slightly better that they were 4-5 years ago. Lets hope ma long doesnt experience the same luck with them

paras.oriental said:

"Once again Ma long is out from a tournament he truly deserved to win.

Why he does the same mistakes every time after coming to the brink of winning. I am a true supporter and a very big fan of Ma Long. He broke my heart once again.
He lost to his compatriot Wang Hao , whom he could have easily defeated 4-0. Losing to Wang was not of much respect as would have been to Zhang. Nevertheless he had broken millions heart this time.

--(From a sad Heart)"

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I agree, he sure does break out heart on quite a few occasions

And I think the next WTTC will be even more difficult to Ma Long because the pressure to win a WTTC is even bigger...

UpSideDownCarl said:

I just watched the Wang Hao Ma Long match a few times.

If you watch, over and over again, Wang Hao is using that reverse serve to Ma Long's forehand and keeping it short and really low. Ma Long cannot attack it so he is trying to push it. But his push with his forehand is not so good and he really cannot handle that reverse serve. He pops so many of them up. A lot of the time when Ma Long serves Wang Hao pushes really short to Ma Long's forehand too. Same basic result although Ma Long is better at pushing against a push than against that reverse serve. And then, Ma Long starts trying to open on those balls that are too short for him to take a big swing on his forehand and he really misses a lot of those.

That is tactics.

That is keeping those pushes short, low and at a place where Ma Long is temped to take them with his forehand but actually cannot. When they go to his backhand he is okay at handling them because he can actually take them over the table. But, he is really looking to get his forehand off and neglecting the opportunities to open with his backhand.

I also watched the match from the Finals of the Kuwait Open where Zhang Jike beat Ma Long 4-1. Zhang Jike does the same exact thing to Ma Long as what Wang Hao does. The one difference I see in that match, when Ma Long does get off his huge forehand to open while close to the table, Zhang Jike is usually there and responds with a counter loop. It is a very short stroke but it has all of Ma Long's power and he gives it right back to Ma Long, who is usually not ready for his giant forehand to come back. He is often not even set for a next shot when Zhang Jike rips Ma Long's forehand back.

Here: have a look:

Before this match, I had never seen Zhang Jike have a real answer to Ma Long's relentless attack. My money says he watched what Wang Hao has done and learned to keep those serves extra short to Ma Long's forehand and realized how much trouble he actually has with the reverse spin when he is trying to take it with his forehand.

This comes from that practice Liu Gouliang has them do where they are trying to serve under the racket and get the ball to land really close to the net.

And it also comes from learning to push really short where you take the ball right off the bounce and just touch it over the net so it barely gets over and does not bounce very high at all. Very hard to do and you must have really good touch, footwork and anticipation to do it consistently in a match. But that is what Wang Hao did to control the game and keep Ma Long from launching his huge forehand attacks.

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very solid analysis. bravo carl ! I think yan an has done the same thing to ML in their encounter @ Qatar open. Yan blocked many FH topspins of ma long getting him out of position

Ma Long is the best, but I do not know what happened to him the last few months I think it's kind of psychological pressure...

Great analysis; nothing left to add.
For us as Ma Long fans it is enjoyable to watch him play because of his aggressive style
but the truth is that he is NOT the best overall player.
Top players have found a way to suppress his huge FH and he struggles in short play (close
to table). And when he starts to struggle, he makes many unforced errors and loses control
of the match. I agree with this after watching his recent matches for at least the second
time.
If someone like Timo plays Ma Long 10 times in a year on occasions when both are in good shape,
he will most probably find a way to control the rhythm and beat Ma Long in the 11th match, this is
just my thought of course.
One thing to say is that after being the #1 player for a long time and not being selected for the
Olympics, I think at the back of his head, he assumes he cannot beat Wang Hao and Zhang Jike.
I mean, that background has definitely damaged his confidence against those players.
In any case, I will still love to see Ma Long come back and win some titles!

UpSideDownCarl said:

I just watched the Wang Hao Ma Long match a few times.

If you watch, over and over again, Wang Hao is using that reverse serve to Ma Long's forehand and keeping it short and really low. Ma Long cannot attack it so he is trying to push it. But his push with his forehand is not so good and he really cannot handle that reverse serve. He pops so many of them up. A lot of the time when Ma Long serves Wang Hao pushes really short to Ma Long's forehand too. Same basic result although Ma Long is better at pushing against a push than against that reverse serve. And then, Ma Long starts trying to open on those balls that are too short for him to take a big swing on his forehand and he really misses a lot of those.

That is tactics.

That is keeping those pushes short, low and at a place where Ma Long is temped to take them with his forehand but actually cannot. When they go to his backhand he is okay at handling them because he can actually take them over the table. But, he is really looking to get his forehand off and neglecting the opportunities to open with his backhand.

I also watched the match from the Finals of the Kuwait Open where Zhang Jike beat Ma Long 4-1. Zhang Jike does the same exact thing to Ma Long as what Wang Hao does. The one difference I see in that match, when Ma Long does get off his huge forehand to open while close to the table, Zhang Jike is usually there and responds with a counter loop. It is a very short stroke but it has all of Ma Long's power and he gives it right back to Ma Long, who is usually not ready for his giant forehand to come back. He is often not even set for a next shot when Zhang Jike rips Ma Long's forehand back.

Here: have a look:

Before this match, I had never seen Zhang Jike have a real answer to Ma Long's relentless attack. My money says he watched what Wang Hao has done and learned to keep those serves extra short to Ma Long's forehand and realized how much trouble he actually has with the reverse spin when he is trying to take it with his forehand.

This comes from that practice Liu Gouliang has them do where they are trying to serve under the racket and get the ball to land really close to the net.

And it also comes from learning to push really short where you take the ball right off the bounce and just touch it over the net so it barely gets over and does not bounce very high at all. Very hard to do and you must have really good touch, footwork and anticipation to do it consistently in a match. But that is what Wang Hao did to control the game and keep Ma Long from launching his huge forehand attacks.

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arhabib said:

One thing to say is that after being the #1 player for a long time and not being selected for the
Olympics, I think at the back of his head, he assumes he cannot beat Wang Hao and Zhang Jike.

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I really liked your post. I just wanted to clarify one piece of information.


It was not that Ma Long did not get picked to play in the Olympic singles event. Liu Gouliang had no choice in this matter. Ma Long DID NOT QUALIFY TO PLAY IN THE OLYMPIC SINGLES EVENT. I wish he had. But each country could only have 2 players in the singles event. The first 2 to qualify would qualify for singles.


After the first two, a country could have a third player qualify for team and then they could have one player qualify as an alternate.


The first part of qualifications were the world rankings after the 2011 WTTC. I think it was May 2011. If a country had players in the top 28, the top 2 spots could qualify. If there was only one player in the top 28, only one player from that country could qualify this way.


The first to qualify was Wang Hao. I believe Timo was ranked 1 and Wang H was 2. Zhang Jike, after winning the 2011 WTTC, was ranked 3 and was the second highest ranked player from China. Ma Lin was 4 and Ma Long was 5.

[{EDIT} I looked in May 2011 Wang Hao was #1, Timo Boll was #2, Zhang Jike was #3, Ma Lin was #4 and Ma Long was #5.]


So, because Wang Hao and Zhang Jike were ranked higher than Ma Long in the rankings directly following the 2011 WTTC, those two qualified 1st and 2nd and NOBODY BUT THOSE TWO COULD HAVE PLAYED IN THE OLYMPIC SINGLES EVENT FOR CHINA.


In the Asian Olympic trial tournament Ma Long qualified to play in the team event BUT HE WAS NOT ELIGIBLE TO PLAY IN THE SINGLES BECAUSE WANG HAO AND ZHANG JIKE HAD ALREADY TAKEN THOSE TWO SPOTS.


Again, MA LONG DID NOT QUALIFY TO PLAY IN THE SINGLES EVENT FOR CHINA.


He did not hit world ranking of #1 until 3 or 4 months too late.


I think the system was lame. But nobody decided to not choose him. He simply did not qualify. At the time Ma Lin would have qualified ahead of him. Ma Long was the #4 ranked player from China. He only could have qualified if he had been# 1 or 2 for China.


Sort of bad luck since he was coming off an injury which caused him to drop in the rankings.

I think there's a peculiar characteristic that ma long has.
he always seems to stand out or "shine" more than the others.
even if he's not really better, he just stands out more.

he's like an attempt for perfection from the whole human race :-D

maybe not now after he lost but in the chinese team they always spoke wonders about him.
in the forums everybody says he is the best again and again.
dan from ttdaily when he was in the chinese training I remember him saying that ma long was practising more advanced stuff than all the others (like he was in another level or something).
in that video dan recorded where they are all playing this challenge of serving it's interesting how when ma long serves they all pay a lot of attention and everybody has an intense reaction.
this doesn't happen so much with zjk wh or xx.
when you come to ttdaily home page, who's is the first big image you see? it's ma long supporting ttdaily...

he's clearly one of the best but there's also a lot of illusion created around him, almost like trying to make him a super hero

That big beautiful forehand does stand out. It is hard not to like that. It is very flashy and it is very powerful. It is also very graceful. And, against a player who does not do what Wang Hao did--which was keep it short enough and low enough so that Ma Long could not get off those big first shots, and then got Ma Long pop it up for easy kill shots, or Ma Long just tried to launch the forehand even though the ball is too low and short to loop, and then he misses--against a player who cannot do what Wang Hao did, Ma Long's forehand looks nothing short of amazing.

One can analyse as much as they want about Ma Long having a weaker backhand and a error prone short game, which is true to an extent, but the real reason why Ma Long couldn't perform was his nerves. We all had anticipated that he had got over his issues and is a much more stronger player now mentally. But the truth is he hasn't. And that is the only reason he has been losing in Big tournaments, not because he has technical flaws.At their levels, I think those get sorted out pretty fast. For example in the pro tour semi finals against Wang Hao,( and the countless number of times he's faced him before at the world tour) he was brilliant, and that is the Ma Long we know. He was missing simple blocks and counter loops which he would do with his eyes closed on another day. He was ending up flat footed for the down the line Wang Hao backhands. Why? Because he was in too much hurry to hit his big forehand and finish the point and that hurry only happens when you're nervous. Wang Hao and ZJK are much more flexible players, who can arrest their downfall in the middle of a match brilliantly. They deserve to be where ever they are.Ma long cannot do it, and more so without a coach by his side. In any sport , " What could've been" is a pretty irrelevant question. I just hope Ma long proves himself someday.

I am really disappointed being a Ma Long fan. But then that makes me realize how he must be feeling right now. I hope he takes this on his chin, as he always has and comes back stronger. I became his fan because he is a treat to watch most of the time, so I find no reason that will change. If anything, if Ma Long comes back from this, well, at some level, my respect for him will increase.

sumangupa said:

One can analyse as much as they want about Ma Long having a weaker backhand and a error prone short game, which is true to an extent, but the real reason why Ma Long couldn't perform was his nerves. We all had anticipated that he had got over his issues and is a much more stronger player now mentally. But the truth is he hasn't. And that is the only reason he has been losing in Big tournaments, not because he has technical flaws.At their levels, I think those get sorted out pretty fast. For example in the pro tour semi finals against Wang Hao,( and the countless number of times he's faced him before at the world tour) he was brilliant, and that is the Ma Long we know. He was missing simple blocks and counter loops which he would do with his eyes closed on another day. He was ending up flat footed for the down the line Wang Hao backhands. Why? Because he was in too much hurry to hit his big forehand and finish the point and that hurry only happens when you're nervous. Wang Hao and ZJK are much more flexible players, who can arrest their downfall in the middle of a match brilliantly. They deserve to be where ever they are.Ma long cannot do it, and more so without a coach by his side. In any sport , " What could've been" is a pretty irrelevant question. I just hope Ma long proves himself someday.

I am really disappointed being a Ma Long fan. But then that makes me realize how he must be feeling right now. I hope he takes this on his chin, as he always has and comes back stronger. I became his fan because he is a treat to watch most of the time, so I find no reason that will change. If anything, if Ma Long comes back from this, well, at some level, my respect for him will increase.

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The point about nerves would hold true were it not for the fact that as pointed out bt Carl, ML was having trouble with Boll in their match.

So many points were lost from Ma Long when he tried to return the service by chopping the ball and then Wang Hao just put an end to it with a strong topspin. Compare that to Zhang Jike's method (not the times when he backhand flicks) with his forehand his bat is angled almost 0° horizontal to the table surface and he touches the ball without adding the spin but reflects it, therefore placing it back very short behind the net, making Wang Hao unable to loop. This vast difference in method of dealing with the short ball was a huge % of Ma Long's chance to win. I doubt his nerves was a major reason, as he coped with top-spin rallies pretty well. Also he's a professional player and he's dealt with all this before, everyone is a little bit nervous in a competition.