The Never Ending Tragedy - Ma Long vs Hao

Heh..
I was expecting Ma Long to win too.. Especially in the assumption that Ma Long is now mentally mature and strong (relative to the world class players of course)..
Turns out my expectation (and many of ours!) is once again wrong..

Here's my short and VERY rough calculation.. Just assume that:
Ma Long has 120% of Wang Hao's current 100% physical capability at the moment (power, strength, footwork, stamina, probably technique, etc).
Ma Long's mental strength is only able to make him play at 65% of his real game potential at highly-prestigious events such as this WTTC.
In the other hand, Wang Hao's mental strength makes him able to play at his 90%.
Ma Long vs Wang Hao = 78% vs 90%
Victory to Wang Hao

I never expect (or precisely, root for) Ma Long to actually win a tournament, not even a match to be honest.
My seemingly first expectation is now broken to pieces. Many of you guys' too.
Hopefully this is not my last and this is definitely not the last for Ma Long's fans (hoping him to win).
However, judging from the current circumstances, Ma Long doesn't have too much time left to show that he is worthy to be considered a table tennis legend, up to par with say, Kong Linghui and Liu Guoliang, if that is in his life goal.

So, better get hurry Ma Long.
Past is to be remembered and forgotten but the future is to be strived for, favorably to be strived without being affected negatively by what is in the past nor the present.

Easier said that done (including for many of us), but we know that you could actually do it. Go for it Ma Long!

I think the post of UpSideDownCarl explains this "tragedy"



http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/f...-World-Table-Tennis-Championships-2013/page18

What this represents is a growing mental barrier. Wang Hao lost the Olympic Final 3 times, it is often said that if he had won the first in Athens then he probably could have won all 3. Ma Lin was 3-1 and 7-1 up against Wang Liqin in the World Championships Final and lost, that was one of 3 World Championships he lost in the final, if he had won the first, do you think he could have won it again? Possibly.

Ma Long now faces a growing psychological barrier facing his performance at the World Championships. We will have to wait another 2 years to see if he can in fact break that barrier and win, but to be completely honest it's going to take something radical, he seemed to doubt himself from the word go in the semifinal match and he just had no confidence, it was not enjoyable to watch and I did hope he could come back and win it.

I'm rooting for ZJK to take it all but I would have liked to see a ZJK/ML final. I'm really disappointed.

It's a shame for ML but you can't disassociate the mental from the physical aspect of sports. When you think of all time great sports athletes like Michael Jordan people mention his killer instinct, not just his shot making ability. Unfortunately ML hasn't reached that point yet.

I think the Chinese coaches mentioned Wang Liqin had a big problem with his mental game and confidence, but he finally overcame that hump and he ended up 3x World Champ. So who knows?

Dan said:

I was on the edge of my seat literally. I really thought Ma Long was going to take this worlds. He looked so tense from the start, it is confusing. He does so well throughout the year but at the real big tournaments he struggles. If Ma Long played Wang Hao in the China Super League or a World Tour he would play on such a different level... the saga continues...

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Keep in mind Wang Hao doesn't play nearly his best in Pro Tours. His coach has also stated that WH plays on around 60% of his maximum in Pro Tour due to lack of motivation. This increased level will also make it harder for Ma Long to play well.

It was as if he put his forehand shots back in his drawer and he does possess one of the best forehands in the business. Was it a lack of confidence in his forehand? Also he has been mucking around with his blade setup a bit too much for a top 5 player, I mean its not like there is any new breakthrough technology wise in blades. Almost everyone uses an ALC blade and he went from an ALC back to an all wood blade. Its one thing for us EJ novices to be mucking around with setups and another if a top 5 pro does so.

So, I put this post into the thread for the world championships:

UpSideDownCarl said:

Alright, I am going to say this and I don't think any of the Ma Long fans out there are going to like it.


I was hoping Ma Long could win the World Championships this year and put the whole discussion to rest. But, two things I saw this morning in the first two quarter final matches (Ma Long v Timo Boll and Wang Hao v Yan An) made me realize he could not win and made me realize he would lose to Wang Hao.


First, I saw Timo make Ma Long struggle with a good and intelligent short game. Second, I saw Wang Hao use the short game and the same Jedi mind tricks on Yan An in their quarter final match that he used on Ma Long in 2011 WTTC.


Yan An's short game is better than Ma Long's. Yan An's BH is better than Ma Long's. But Ma Long's FH is better than anyone's so people sometimes seem to miss this that his short game is not as good as it needs to be.


So when I saw Ma Long struggling against Timo and what Wang Hao did to Yan An, I had a feeling Ma Long still could not handle Wang Hao.


It was not nerves. Ma Long would never have gotten past Timo without Liu Gouliang in his corner. Liu Gouliang saved Ma Long several times in that match when he was falling prey to Timo's short game.


I knew, against Wang Hao, he would not have LG in his corner. I knew he could not handle the short game and the Jedi mind trick. Wang Hao was nice and eased up for games 4 and 5. In game 6 he decided to end it: and look at the score.


Zhang Jike's short game is good enough to handle Wang Hao, and in big events, against the better players, he comes to play and win. He did not show up for Baum. He knew he could win without being fully there. He showed up for Xu Xin. He will show up tomorrow.


I believe Zhang Jike will win. But we will see what Wang Hao has up his sleeve.


And, unless Ma Long gets a real top flight short game and improves his backhand, he cannot win WTTC. But, honestly, I think this was his last chance.

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This is something that only really clicked for me today. This is not just a case of nerves. He could play Wang Hao over and over and he will not beat him in this kind of situation. Wang Hao brought his A game and every trick he could pull out.

I really thought Yan An was going to take care of Wang Hao and Ma Long would get passed Yan An. But when I saw what Wang Hao did to Yan An, I knew Ma Long could not get passed Wang Hao. Wang Hao did the same thing to Yan An that he did to Ma Long 2 years ago in the 2011 WTTC. And in doing it, he broke Yan An's game down just like he broke Ma Long's game down 2 years ago and just like he did today.

This has to do with the fact that Ma Long's backhand is not strong enough to control rallies with his backhand, and his short game is not good enough when someone can frustrate him and keep him from launching that giant forehand.

His forehand is better than anyones.

His backhand is NOT.

And his short game is not good enough to keep him in the points when someone like Wang Hao uses those tactics.

Wang Hao's backands down the line that caught Ma Long flat footed deep in the backhand corner after turning to his forehand are part of the reason he needs a better backhand. If he had been able to go backhand to backhand with Wang Hao, those backhands down the line are within reach. But as soon as Wang Hao saw him turning to his forehand, Wang Hao ripped the ball down the line with his backhand and made Ma Long pay for turning to his forehand so deep on his backhand side. Then he did not know what to do. If he turns to his forehand he gets burned down the line, if he stays on his backhand he gets burned backhand to backhand. Timo had him a little confused about where to move and when to turn to his forehand as well today.

This is not nerves, an accident or fate. This was a great tactical win for Wang Hao. He knew what he was doing. I don't care how many times Ma Long beats Wang Hao in regular World Tour events. On this big stage where it really counts, Wang Hao pulled out every trick he had in his bag: stuff Ma Long has not seen since the last WTTC. And Ma Long was not able to handle it because he does not have the skills to cope with what Wang Hao threw at him.

Wang Hao cannot do that same thing to Zhang Jike because that is what Zhang Jike is best at. He is crazy good at backhand and short game. There is no shakehand player who has ever been as good at short game as he is. Wang Hao can cause problems for him though because penholders have an advantage in the short game. Soooo much wrist action.

I really was hoping Ma Long would win this year. And I really did not realize why he could not win till watching those matches this morning. I am really sad for Ma Long. He is so fun to watch and such a beautiful player. But, he really is missing two important technical aspects of the game that have kept him from winning on this biggest stage.

Wang Liqin won with a game that is very much like Ma Long's. I don't think that game with the giant forehand and a backhand and short game that are acceptable but not exceptional can win today.

Ma Long gave it away man.. He played dull in the beginning and the last match was like WTF !!!!!!!!

Carl I have to disagree..
At least about that 2011 match, because there was Ma Long clearly better and unless Wang Hao got that pig edge he would lost.
But I can agree with the rest, except I think Samsonov´s short game is as good as Zhang´s
That may be the reason why Zhang almost lost to Vladi at the olympics..
This will be really tough for Ma Long now, with Yan An, Fan Zhendong, Zhou Yu, Fang Bo and who knows who else comming..
I am only very very sad for this loss and also very very sad for the final Zhang vs. Wang, because that will be pretty much repeat of the story from 2011 and olympics.. and thats going to be pretty boring..
In fact - I dont remember any of those matches even though I saw them, because it was really boring.
Wang Hao in my opinion just cant beat Zhang Jike..

Credit to Wang Hao. Ma Long was too nervous.. I really hope Wang Hao would win the final, then he would have beat all the tough Chinese players (Yan An, Ma Long and ZJK). But yea, ZJK will probably win the final now... we'll see

Now I can't win signed blade Liu Shiwen and Ma Long both lost

Ma long just failed every time with his BH... He had no confidence using it so he tried to step around but that didn't workout... If you look at the wttc of 2011 and you compare his BH then you'll see that he was a two winged looping machine, and this year he wasn't

Yeah, I was asking myself the same thing.
Looked like Wang Hao said to Ma long that he had to play better for the crowd or something ...

i couldnt believe how tense ma long was!!!!he was so tense that i felt it too.
i know that he will be world champion someday!!
wang hao was playing on a very high level,althought ma long didnt cause him much trouble because of his state

Ma Long's mental state is what cost him in this match.
He should not have gone 3 games behind before actually beginning to play at an acceptable level. Wang Hao used the perfect tactics against him, along with a perfect mental game, giving no reaction so Ma had nothing to feed off, and sure enough, Ma had no answer to it.
I agree with the sentiment that a player with a big forehand and an ok backhand at the moment cannot win world titles. Xu Xin and Ma Long both suffer from this problem, and I don't see either of them in the final. I see 2 players with exceptional backhand and forehand wings. Equally balanced players.

Successful players now will be those who are equally strong from both wings. Thats why the one side penholder is no longer a strong style, and soon Ma Long & Wang Liqins style will be outdated aswell.

Sad, but true. I like Ma long but unless he improves his backhand and his mental states, he wont be winning a WTTC or Olympic Games any time soon.

Michal_Z said:

Carl I have to disagree..
At least about that 2011 match, because there was Ma Long clearly better and unless Wang Hao got that pig edge he would lost.

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Not sure I fully understand this. Explain. Wasn't Ma Long up 2-1 in 2011 and then Wang Hao started serving from the middle of the table and keeping the ball low and short and making it so that Ma Long could not launch his forehand and did not cover the whole table with his forehand. From the middle he could go wider on the forehand or backhand side, so Wang Hao forced Ma Long to use his backhand more.

PingPongPom said:

he seemed to doubt himself from the word go in the semifinal match and he just had no confidence, it was not enjoyable to watch and I did hope he could come back and win it.

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Koki Niwa gave him trouble on the forehand backhand switch even though he beat Koki. Timo Boll was exploiting the short game and the forehand backhand issue for Ma Long and, my money says, without Liu Gouliang giving him advice to get him back on course in that match against Timo, Ma Long would have lost.

By the way, for those of you who think Liu Gouliang does not like Ma Long, why was he Ma Long's personal coach in the games? Who else did he do that for?

SirDJ said:

It was as if he put his forehand shots back in his drawer and he does possess one of the best forehands in the business. Was it a lack of confidence in his forehand?

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That is what a good short game can do, keep your opponent from launching their biggest shots. Ma Long feeds on high pushes and rips them with his forehand and ends the point on third balls. He cannot do that against a player with as good a short game as Wang Hao, at least when Wang Hao brings his A game to the arena which he did yesterday. He definitely needed it against Yan An. Ma Long was easier for Wang Hao than Yan An was. But, in the end, he frustrated each of them and he broke down each of their games.

That was Wang Hao, the interior game, and the Jedi mind trick. The mind is part of the game. And the mind is part of breaking down an opponent's game. You saw a warrior in the arena, at his best when Wang Hao took on those two guys.

I think Zhang Jike's short game is too good for Wang Hao to break his game down even if he frustrates him. And I think, in these big events, Zhang Jike's mental focus is good enough to withstand the Jedi mind trick.

I really do feel bad for Ma Long and Yan An, but that was flawless tactics and a great short game to set up the chess match of each point.

You kind of have to give it to Wang Hao for coming through big time in this venue.

Ma Long must change his tactic, he plays way too predictably. In forehand short game when he played with Wang Hao you could even hear him banging on the table with the bat because he chops the ball so much. He should try Zhang Jike's method of very delicate placing the ball right behind the net. Zhang Jike on his forehand does very opposite of chopping the ball, take a look in the match with Xu Xin how extremely open the angle of his bat is when in his forehand-shortgame and he lifts the ball which makes it float instead of trying to add even more backspin like Ma Long does which is then very easy to loop especially for very top players like Wang Hao. So to conclude, Zhang Jike's effectivness doesn't just come down to his very spinny backhand flick although it is probably one of the best but also his dealing with the ball on his forehand by lifting the ball very delicately instead of Ma Long's chopping.

Mwit_Psychoror said:

To Bollforte

I know how you feel as I am also a Ma Long fan. Be optimistic, this is not the last tournament he's gonna participate in. As long as Ma Long is still alive, there's some hope that he can win the WTTC and Olympics. He's won the world cup already remember? There's nothing for him to fear now. But for this match, he must fight against not only the present Wang Hao, but also against his old memory being defeated by Wang Hao twice in WTTC, it must be very hard for him. Having said that there's no excuse though, he's still mentally weak.

Although he has let me down many times now, I will not give up my hope on him. The reason why I support Ma Long is not because he has many big titles, but because I have witnessed the best table tennis in the history of mankind right there in his game.

Regards

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Thanks very much, you just spoke my words. For me, Ma Long is the best player ever in the history not matter what he has and has not achieved, And his only opponent all the time is Zhang Jike in term of skills and tactics. Don't wanna get his mental weakness involved to this discussion, 'coz that would be a huge disadvantage to play against any another players and lead him in trouble, not only Wang Hao