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Otherwise, why bother having national teams at all? Why not just have "Planet Earth A" vs "Planet Earth B", all the way down to team Z, with 90% chinese players in there? That might be the purest representation of TT sporting excellence we have, but it's hardly the way national-level sport works.

Well, I have to be honest, I have always wondered why table tennis works this way where the tournaments are about country not about players.

At Wimbledon, in the player matchups, it does not say Spain next to Rapha's name. The players may come from different countries, but, which country they come from is not really a central focus.

Why is it so central in Table Tennis? I really have never understood that. Okay, in team competition, there are teams. This team is from Germany, this one is from Korea. No big deal. But, why is it mentioned in the singles events.
 
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The Point is that these Chinese-German players are living in Germany for over 10 years. So in my eyes they are looking Chinese but are German. I am living in Germany since 1994 and for evrybody I'm the pole here :D The best example is like you said the German football national team. Nobody cares that there is a Turkish man, a polish or a man from Ghana. But in TT they are not happy about it that there are Chinese looking players...


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UpSideDownCarl, PolishTT

Both are you have valid points.....
I honestly don't know or don't understand what the fuss is about in both cases.

I have been in South Africa for over 20 years. Some times my student joke to they friends or opponent saying, they just import me from Chinese national team to train them. Other than that, I don't get xenophobic abuse. But recently with China Malls errupting every where, this is making a negative reaction to all oriental people. Some people just can't tell the different between "local" Chinese, or "new" Chinese for that matter - unless there is some spoken dialogue.
 
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I must add, though, that I had never before heard of Han Ying and Shan Xiaona.. That probably adds to the feeling as well. I've never seen any discussion about Wu Jiaduo and Zhenqi Barthel being German or not.

So maybe its just unfamiliarity, people want to identify with their heroes but some find it hard to accept new heroes when they have a Chinese background apparently..
 
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Finally remembered my password to this forum after so long. I just want to point a few things out, not meant to be directed to anyone in particular.
1. There is already a rule by ITTF that players changing nationality must wait for a number of years (i think 3-7 depending on their age) before they can represent that country internationally.
2. There is nothing wrong for anyone in any profession to move to another country to pursue their careers. I moved to Canada for better job opportunities and life style, but it doesn't mean I suddenly became a "canadian" over night.
3. Why blame the players when it is the government who granted their citizenship of the country, go protest your laws, not the players.
4. I strongly believe that players should be recognized by their individual talent, not which country they are from.
5. Everyone just chill, there will always be that small group of people who are against everything, I am sure a larger portion of people in china would react the same way if their national sports team is represented by a non-chinese ethnic person.
 
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AndySmith.
I agree with what you said. So lets say Germany has done all of the above, and now still this?
According to the article, it talks about Racism in there. So I don't think it matters if you or me say this is racism or not, the article has already mentioned it.

If the players have met with the eligibility criteria, then that's the end of the story really. You might have an issue with the criteria, so you could campaign about that, but to boil the issue down to "germans" vs "Chinese-germans" is a gross oversimplification of how complicated this is, and only really shows the ignorance of the people involved. I mean, what is a "Chinese-german" anyway? You're either German, or you're not.

However, one problem is the idea that if you're a citizen, you should be able to play for your national side. The problem here is that different countries have different eligibility rules for citizenship, so in a world where national teams want to cynically import talent then some countries would have an advantage over others in their ability to do it. This is where the international federation steps in to apply a universal rule, or they should do anyway. The playing field should be as level as possible.

Personally, as a supporter I don't like to see foreign imports into national sides if the players have been educated and trained in other countries. For example, in the England Cricket Team we currently have several players of South African descent. Nothing against South Africa or South Africans here, but (for example) Trott was trained in SA, and played for the national SA under 15 and under 19 sides. When England win the ashes, the sense of nationalistic pride I feel is slightly diminished. I can't feel totally proud of England's cricket youth structure which produced the team, because it didn't totally produce it. It doesn't feel right to me - this feels like a hybrid England/SA team winning the ashes, not an England one. I can still enjoy the sporting spectacle, still say the best team won, still say that the players were there on merit, and still say that the England team was comprised of English citizens (in Trott's case, he has an English passport). But can I be proud of my country for producing such an excellent side? Not fully, because we didn't fully produce it. A minor quibble in the overall scheme of things.

Of course, there's something inherently prejudicial about national level sporting teams and events. This doesn't sit well with a world with increasing migration, and not everyone will be happy with the solution that sporting governing bodies arrive at. There are no perfect solutions, just grey areas.
 
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If the players have met with the eligibility criteria, then that's the end of the story really. You might have an issue with the criteria, so you could campaign about that, but to boil the issue down to "germans" vs "Chinese-germans" is a gross oversimplification of how complicated this is, and only really shows the ignorance of the people involved. I mean, what is a "Chinese-german" anyway? You're either German, or you're not.

However, one problem is the idea that if you're a citizen, you should be able to play for your national side. The problem here is that different countries have different eligibility rules for citizenship, so in a world where national teams want to cynically import talent then some countries would have an advantage over others in their ability to do it. This is where the international federation steps in to apply a universal rule, or they should do anyway. The playing field should be as level as possible.

Personally, as a supporter I don't like to see foreign imports into national sides if the players have been educated and trained in other countries. For example, in the England Cricket Team we currently have several players of South African descent. Nothing against South Africa or South Africans here, but (for example) Trott was trained in SA, and played for the national SA under 15 and under 19 sides. When England win the ashes, the sense of nationalistic pride I feel is slightly diminished. I can't feel totally proud of England's cricket youth structure which produced the team, because it didn't totally produce it. It doesn't feel right to me - this feels like a hybrid England/SA team winning the ashes, not an England one. I can still enjoy the sporting spectacle, still say the best team won, still say that the players were there on merit, and still say that the England team was comprised of English citizens (in Trott's case, he has an English passport). But can I be proud of my country for producing such an excellent side? Not fully, because we didn't fully produce it. A minor quibble in the overall scheme of things.

Of course, there's something inherently prejudicial about national level sporting teams and events. This doesn't sit well with a world with increasing migration, and not everyone will be happy with the solution that sporting governing bodies arrive at. There are no perfect solutions, just grey areas.

The only reason why I pointed out is Chinese-German, as it is better than Chinese.

You are right. These migration of players can be a pro or con to any sport. Like you said, English cricket also suffers some form of set back.
I'm not a great follower of football/soccer, but I assume the same thing for a weaker English national team, where by at club level, the main spots is for international players and not enough focus on local players.

I think those small group of fans just need to mature up and face reality, and if they want to complain, they must complain at the right people and avoid abusing innocent people.

Now I would like to see, if this is a small group or big group. If it is big group, then it can be dangerous (even safety risk), for those German of Chinese decent. Again, nothing different to Nazi, the way I see it.

Then, talking about schooling etc.
If a Chinese is sent to England or US to study, and gets his/her Masters or PHD, and return to China. They are considered great assets, and can assist the economy. I believe same applies for many Asian countries, like Japan and Korea too.
But in sports... people see them as outsiders
 
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feel sorry. have to recognize China is making this item dull.

It's not good to see tabletennis became a chinese-player-game. Without any suspense in the cross-country competition, many fans changed focus on a game from which country will win to longing for a non-Chinese-victory, or to supporting a certain star, including me. The difference between the NBA and the Europe Championship cases lies in whether it is a commercial game or a symbol of national honor. In my opionion raising national flags on the ceremony of championships and Olympic Games is a big mistake. Nationalism or patriotism is also a big mistake, but is so deep-rooted everywhere. If a handful of Germans represents China to play football, I think similar remarks will also apear in China.
 
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The Germans dont seem to have a problem with Polish people playing in the national football team.

You got that right! Nor do they got issues with Turkei players on their squad either! Heck, I loved the Turkei and Polish players on my FC Bayern and the success they helped FC Bayern achieve. Podolski, Klose and Altentop to name a few who played at Bayern.
 
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The Germans dont seem to have a problem with Polish people playing in the national football team.

Do I think it matters that so many countries table tennis teams are dominated by players originally born and trained in China? No. But I can understand how some people might not like that for their country's national team.

What we can marvel at is how good the Chinese are at training great table tennis players, at starting them at an early age and getting them ready to be top level players. There are so many of them that there is not enough room on the Chinese team for all of them.

I do not think that there is a way for other countries to compete unless that country's government was involved in organizing a recruiting and training program for the sport that started with children being scouted for talent at the earliest ages.

Yes, this will achieve the goal, but it isn't the only mandatory way. Culture and infrastructure plays a lot in this. Our most popular sports in USA are easily accessable in the most remote locales in USA, were talkin' American Football, Golf, Basketball, and Basesball. We have great infrastructure there, popular culture supporting these sports, established TV audience, established leagues at the lowest grassroots level, a visable path to big money earning professionalism in the sport, and parental support. These are the most important things. Establishing a sport as a school sport isn't really the government, but I see where you are coming from. It really helps if the schools adopt the sport, but if the other ingredients are there, then is cool. Soccer was that way and is now a school sport in most places in USA. There is a path to pro level earning real money. Companies are interested in partnering up. Those things carry much more weight than government intervention, but that intervention could sure help it get there. ITTF actually tries to foster some of this, but is so inept in doing so, USA national assn. is quadruple ineffective there as well, email is free and they are not leveraging it to every institution around. If I was in charge of marketing for USA TT, I would be all over gorilla emailing every school and workplace showing them what TT can do for them.
 
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I know a few instance when TT was not part of the equation when immigration occured.
So now the person gets naturalize, pay it taxes etc (just like every other citizen), so in the sport of Table Tennis, they get looked at funny?
We don't get this in the business world, why is it such a big problem in sports, or rather table tennis?

For those that import for the sake of TT, then of course, it is bad planning. ie Singapore.

This is a tough one, as you can not deny the rights (human rights) of naturalize players (unless it is like ITTF). Some may say, use quota system, but that itself is unfair to the chosen and unchosen.
Simply, the best citizen should represent his/her country. If you don't want this problem, then don't give citizenship, or have some form of rule that you need to do x.y.z to get in. And once they get in, the public should respect than to be racist.
Immigration is not easy.
well I asked that question because bottom line is no country wants to be last in any competition. they import players to boost their team as well as develop individual players and since sport is business, if your team is winning you increase spectators and interest on the sports ...Its more interesting to watch two players play at the same level than watch a player get a beating from another year after year.
 
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It's an empowerment that creates and unfair unbalance in our own national teams. By suggesting that the present native group is incapable of competing on its own that it needs to be disregarded is just unfair. This is a serious infiltration into the very nature of fragile europe. Some 20 years ago Chinese weren't so dominant in table tennis, however they somehow didn't get ruthlessly replaced by other non-chinese groups but instead were seeking to gain a help from europeans which gained in form of guide and took it to their homeland to train their players better. What happened to us however? A serious hypocrisy what's right and wrong is hovering around here and only common sense (not the latest trend of using the "R" word for every argument) will tell you what's right. Might as well start calling South Koreans or Japanese racists because their teams are all 100% but that never happens as only the europeans are always the victim and blamed.
 
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This is happening in a lot of European countries. I watched the England national team play Spain. Where there was a Chinese player playing for Spain ranked at the time number 12 in the world. I believe there should be stricter rules in place. I believe this because European countries are finding it harder to bring through their own players. Also it's not fair on other countries who field players who are from there own country. I do not think this is racist. I am not racist. But the there should be tougher rules in place. I think the player should live in the country for a certain amount of time. I think this should be standardised across all sports. Whats the point in bringing through your own talent only to replace this talent with instant success from China?
 
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This is happening in a lot of European countries. I watched the England national team play Spain. Where there was a Chinese player playing for Spain ranked at the time number 12 in the world. I believe there should be stricter rules in place. I believe this because European countries are finding it harder to bring through their own players. Also it's not fair on other countries who field players who are from there own country. I do not think this is racist. I am not racist. But the there should be tougher rules in place. I think the player should live in the country for a certain amount of time. I think this should be standardised across all sports. Whats the point in bringing through your own talent only to replace this talent with instant success from China?

In case you don't know. There is already a very strict policy from ITTF, for ITTF world title events. So this is the international tier
Then you get your national tier.

Now if your country requirement is low, you can't blame the Chinese immigrant, or what ever other country. The problem is not them.
Again, this is just like school or business. Everything if done acording to the law, then why is there still fuss about? People must go and have law amended then.
 
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bzing... FRAGILE EUROPE! hahahahah you made my day even if I suspect you are being tongue in cheek about it! Haha what a line of BC thought!

You come across as joking around, but if you were actually serious, no one realizes how nationalistic, racist, thin-skinned, lack of vision/courage/whatever that passage was haha.
 
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bzing... FRAGILE EUROPE! hahahahah you made my day even if I suspect you are being tongue in cheek about it! Haha what a line of BC thought!

You come across as joking around, but if you were actually serious, no one realizes how nationalistic, racist, thin-skinned, lack of vision/courage/whatever that passage was haha.

I enjoy freedom of speech and don't offend anyone. You on the other hand constantly provoke it by using douchey behaviour and childish name calling. That is a very leftist thing. I have decided to veer away from those ruthless profiteers that care nothing but gain and stand for people representing our national teams just like at least there are still some people like from that article that have a sense of honour unlike you and I take stand by defending as europeans are being neglected while any other asian country like japanese etc are all consisted of their own people. People like you would do a perfect Stalinist. They see people as worthless beings devoid of ties to society or to each other, and that's how it lead to the worst disaster in humanity. Dissolve people's perfect living of all the values and morality and shaft them for a better gain or like in China deprave people of not being even able to speak up of different politics. The very leftist, marxist thing that Stalin did taking away people's freedom costing most human lives than any other is in fact happening very same thing here in our sport teams only in a less "brutal" way, however it is the same flipside of a coin ideology that you proclaim so much. Only a leftist including Genrikh Yagoda, you, Trotsky, Stalin and others can bring such selfish character not sparing a thought of their own people to even improve the wellbeing and train people to be better in sports, they rather betray their own people for a better profitable gains or in this case sport success.
 
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lol bzing,
chill man

The last time i visit london, I didn't see much Brits.
now you are talking about neglection.

Did you ever look at the problem from within, before you start shooting people from the Far far far East?
I heard South Africans are very welcome in England, as South Africans are hard working peeps and the employers rather employ South African over the Brits for that matter. Now, if you want to compare South Africa with Asia....no contest then when comparing with Brits....

As I said, how in the world did England even invaded China? even a small Japan invaded China. This was because China was sleeping, and the people allowed it to happen. But must spoiled parents will always teach the kid, it is the other peoples fault, isn't that so?

In Taiwan, recently, one African-American (think its baseball or basketball), has just become a naturalized citizen.
The entire sport community is behind this "foreigner" and feel honoured that he is willing to become Taiwanese and bringing huge experience to the country.
I did not see much racist stunts going around.
In fact, I see more of it in the western world (even in South Africa), compared to Asia.

Another thing is the Shanghai Sharks, with Americans invovled.
Asian see way pass the colour of the skin, they see intentions and have common grounds to work on.

And yes, you do have some Asians that rather "prefer they own", so what do they do? They will beat them fair and square.
Sun Yang - Chinese olympic swimmer interviewed moments after winning the 1500m: "I have proven to the world that Chinese people can also swim in the pool. We can swim in the pool together with the Americans and Europeans. I hope this will encourage more young ones to work harder and do better than me, and bring more glory to our home land"

Anyways, I'm just sick of seeing people always moaning about how Chinese dominate and what China is doing is bad for the sport.
Correct and incorrect as you simply don't punish people that has been working harder than you, because you can't beat them fair and square!
And this is not just Chinese for TT, or American for basketball. People need to mature up and see past these matters, and if your country want to challenge the best, then prepare to work hard and invest!
 
just an observation :

- the development of a sport comes from a national level decision (look at china in table tennis, germany in football as two basic examples). they believe their side/individual player(s) should be at the top, but get beaten so go back to the drawing board to change things to improve future performance (short, medium and long term)
- this decision then dictates how the sporting structures need to change to get the best out of the resources and individuals available (this is where so called "imported players/coaches/trainers" could be an option)
- this then takes time to start showing success, with lots of modifications along the way if things are not going as planned
- the critical point is that the whole sport agrees that there is a problem and sits down to make a plan to fix it, everyone does their part to develop the team or individual to get them to the higher level of performance

look at the english national football squad (caveat : i'm not into football, it's just a very good example that many people may be able to relate to), they are somehow expected to do amazingly even though they do not have the track record to back it up (1 world cup vs how many for germany/italy/brazil/spain/?, currently ranked 17th in the world with the usa [historically not really viewed as a footballing nation] ranked 13th). is winning a major tournament like the world cup a reasonable expectation? but since there has seemingly not been an honest appraisal of the state of the "english" game and what needs to be done *at a national level* nothing significant will change and hence the performance of the team as a whole will not change.

ymmcv (your mileage most certainly varies)
 
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