Can't believe...

PolishTT · Oct 10, 2013

Hi guys,

I think you will have all heard about the German Women's team that they won the team competition at this years European Championships. Today i read an article on the German newspaper page "Focus online". The article was about the Chinese-German players in the team. And what did I read there? Idiots have been sending letters to the German president of table tennis that it's not fair that the Chinese-German players are playing and not the "Germans"?

What is that? I couldn't believe it when I was reading that... Also on tribune some German "fans" said that they will not applause for Chinese players... I think that this is not normal and racism should not be in my favourite sport. Isn't it enough that this Chinese-German players can't play on World Championships?

What do you think about this? What about other Chinese players with other nationalities?

Regards!

ps: for whom can speak German

http://www.focus.de/sport/mehrsport...eutschen-tischtennis_aid_1123347.html?SThisFB

WiWa · Oct 10, 2013

On the one hand, I can understand the feelings that they don't want people originated in China to dominate European Championships. But as with Li Jiao and Li Jie for Holland, they have the nationality to play for the team. Its maybe more like a frustration that they can't train their own players to a similar level starting from youth on, since to be fair, most of those 'European Chinese' players have had their TT education in China.

I think this is also interesting to look at though: in football it is just the same, but for some reason nobody cares about it there.
http://www.kulfoto.com/funny-pictures/23240/german-national-football-team

Steven · Oct 10, 2013

It's similar to what happened in the Dutch women's team the previous years. The Netherlands won gold in 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011. Their main players were Li Jiao and Li Jie (born in China), Elena Timina (born in Russia) and Linda Creemers (born in the Netherlands). They never received the title "Dutch sportsteam of the year" for this, which is awarded every year.
I don't remember this really ever hit the news in the Netherlands because here table tennis is way less popular than in Germany. But what I think is that it strengthens the idea that China rules over table tennis which in turn makes it a less attractive sport for spectators.

bzing · Oct 10, 2013

Well it's called freedom of speech. They have the right to express their views if it's their own country and it's quite understandable. If the european players are replaced by chinese then there is no sense of competitiveness between different cultures which we can enjoy and reflect how well a particular country is performing in table tennis or any other sport, I don't know about you but to me would be boring to see only chinese vs another chinese all the time. Is it in your opinion fair that all asian countries are all pure and have their own lands while european are relentlessly discriminated in their own countries in every aspect of life including sport by branding everyone "racist" when someone disagrees, not realising how meaningless this word is and constantly perpetuated by the media and the leftist. Soon you'll be seeing less and less europeans in sports thanks to the marxism that is spewing around which is self-detrimental to the old good european values. It's sad, really sad.

craniumburn · Oct 10, 2013

Question is why import/naturalize players?
Sent from my i-STYLE Q2 DUO using Tapatalk 2

Tony's Table Tennis · Oct 10, 2013

I think those German fans should wake up and know that in this day and age, the world is one big international community.

Now those Chinese German's are still Germans
Unless in they eyes, they only consider native Germans to be "true German". Not much different to how Hilter discriminate certain Germans from each other imo.

So if they are not happy that there is not enough native Germans, and what ever other Germans you get, in the national team, then they need to make it happen. Pointless saying this or that. Talk is cheap, go and make things happen.
If they can do it in the Men's Team, I'm sure they can do it in the Women's team. I believe the problem is in Germany, not China!

Same thing in South Africa - hence why there is xenophobic violence in the past.
Non South African Africans are talking jobs in place of the local South African's. Do you know why? coz the South Africans are so lazy. So when your weakness is other people's strength. Don't blame others for your own weakness.

Tony's Table Tennis · Oct 10, 2013

craniumburn said:
Question is why import/naturalize players?
Sent from my i-STYLE Q2 DUO using Tapatalk 2

I know a few instance when TT was not part of the equation when immigration occured.
So now the person gets naturalize, pay it taxes etc (just like every other citizen), so in the sport of Table Tennis, they get looked at funny?
We don't get this in the business world, why is it such a big problem in sports, or rather table tennis?

For those that import for the sake of TT, then of course, it is bad planning. ie Singapore.

This is a tough one, as you can not deny the rights (human rights) of naturalize players (unless it is like ITTF). Some may say, use quota system, but that itself is unfair to the chosen and unchosen.
Simply, the best citizen should represent his/her country. If you don't want this problem, then don't give citizenship, or have some form of rule that you need to do x.y.z to get in. And once they get in, the public should respect than to be racist.
Immigration is not easy.

Matt Hetherington · Oct 10, 2013

You are forgetting that if domestic players have to compete with Chinese imports to make the national team then they really have to raise the bar, this is the case for us in NZ we have a very strong Chinese player here and if our NZ number 1 can raise his level to be able to beat that opponent then long term we will be better off

Tony's Table Tennis · Oct 10, 2013

PingPongPom said:
You are forgetting that if domestic players have to compete with Chinese imports to make the national team then they really have to raise the bar, this is the case for us in NZ we have a very strong Chinese player here and if our NZ number 1 can raise his level to be able to beat that opponent then long term we will be better off

So true.
The ones that is willing to face the competition will improve.
The ones that is not willing to face the competion will come up with excuse.

I feel Team USA, especially the womens team (even though they American born but of Asian decent), are top 100 in the world because of high quality table tennis domestically and not because of the colour of they skin.

Der_Echte · Oct 10, 2013

A naturalized citizen is a citizen, period. Anyone not liking that can lobby their lawmakers to change law. Racist punks can go fluff-off. I don't like 'em, but as long as they are not affecting my paycheck or my family, I'll leave 'em alone for the time being. Maybe they get out of hand to begin to threaten the way of life and security and it is time to take action before they get that way, but not at this point yet as it hasn't approached approaching that yet.

A naturalized citizen achieving glory for his/her new nation should be afforded the same respect. Anyone not liking that can come and meet me... and my fist for a delicious knuckle sandwich and a side order of boot to butt as a going away present.

I am about as Caucasian glow in the dark white skin human ever created, but I have a very thin tolerance for bullcrap racism. We cannot respect and tolerate each other, we had better find a way or we are screwing ourselves and our way of life. Needless warring in so disruptive to everything and takes decades to recover from. I have lived as a "minority" in just about every community I have lived in and as an adult, most of those were not native English speaking ones. I think it is a good thing for everyone to be in a situation to try to fit in a new society/culture/language at least for a year or two to understand and appreciate ones own language and culture. It is also good for your fighting spirit and respect for others.

If anyone starts the bullcrap line of "Well, look at what your nation is doing related to war right now" you can all get lost. I wasn't the one who decided to take over a few countries and you do not see me popping up everywhere yelling about supporting that or how right it is, even if my profession are the very ones executing that order to take over those countries. The motivations behind all that mess should be very clear to even the most simple peoples, and they sure were not the ones announced. Ill leave it at that rant over.

Der_Echte · Oct 10, 2013

Anyone NOT agreeing with my opinion can get a 500cc glass of fine German beer or mineral water and sit across the table and have a good drink and good time with me, I'll buy the first two ones.

UpSideDownCarl · Oct 10, 2013

This is a complex issue. First there is the feeling from people from Germany that the women on the team are not really German and were simply imported and Nationalized to improve the team rather than training people born in Germany to be good enough to compete as they have done on the men's team. Whether that is true or not, there is that perception, as a result of the fact that so many European women's teams are made up of women who were originally born and trained in China.

Now some of the people in Germany may want to know why they can't train woman who were born in Germany and are of German ethnic decent to play at a level where they can be good enough to win. If this just happened in one country, it would be different. But there are many countries where there are players who were imported from China and those players are among the best on that countries national team. So, if people are expressing their frustration that they would want to be able to train people from their own country to be that good and win the title legitimately rather than importing players from another country to make their team stronger, perhaps it may come out the wrong way.

But then, there is that issue that Matt just mentioned which is, that these players, with all the training they had from childhood in China, could raise the bar and make people from the countries they go to train better, play better and be more competitive.

Say there was one country that was just way, way, WAY better at futball (real football, soccer) than any other country, say it was Peru, and all the European national teams were loaded and filled to the brim with players Peru--now Peruvians look nothing like Europeans, so it would be easy to tell--do you think that some people might be upset by the fact that so many European countries were importing players from Peru instead building the interest and infrastructure to train people from their own country to be on their futball teams.

It might be different if people are imported from all over the world because of their talent and not just from one country. But if 15-20 different countries are all using players from one specific country, it sort of seems to stand out.

Like, in pro sports in the USA, nobody would take much notice because in any pro sport, there are players from pretty much any country where there are great players. So in the NBA, you have players from Europe, from China, from many countries in Africa and South America. And even though, in US Hockey, there are a lot of players from Canada, they still import players from all over the world. But another difference with this, these teams are not presenting themselves as a team that represents US ethnicity. The European Table Tennis teams seem to be presented as representing the people from the country.

Der_Echte · Oct 10, 2013

Tony's Table Tennis said:
So true.
The ones that is willing to face the competition will improve.
The ones that is not willing to face the competion will come up with excuse.

I feel Team USA, especially the womens team (even though they American born but of Asian decent), are top 100 in the world because of high quality table tennis domestically and not because of the colour of they skin.

Technically correct, but we are leaving out some important things.

Look at the culturalization of the parents of the children. They are all about setting goals early and driving like a major force to get there relentlessly. They have a culture of sport that is very favorable predispositioned to table tennis, even regard the sport as a noble sport full of challenge and fun worthy of playing daily and training to be the best.

Their parents spent all that time and literally hundreds of thousands of dollars on lessons, club dues, and travel for more training and tourneys... both domestic AND mostly international.

Look at the average American culturalization related to sports. Let's say we are in the workplace and two Americans are talking to each other. One says to the other that his golf swing was a piece of crap, but he has been taking expensive $300 a month lessons (that include unlimited driving range membership) that have paid off and now his handicap is 12, down from 33. Other guy raises his eye and says GREAT! he also secretly wants to be better than his work mate and looks for a better teacher.

Same workplace and another two Americans talking. "Hey Bob, why you so good at Ping Pong?" Bob replies, "I have been taking $300 a month lessons". Other American is so shocked and surprised he falls off chair, spits out his drink spraying Bob and everyone around him and nearly chokes and cracks his head hitting the floor... Dude gets up and exclaims... "What, you actually pay real money to learn how to play... PING PONG???!!!" "WTF is wrong with you dude? Why you tossing away all that money"

That is a typical exchange representative of our American culture related to TT. It is no wonder there are so many foreigners in America who achieve a high level of TT level compared to non-foreigners in USA when our sport culture is so against TT as a serious sport worthy of time and money. TT is viewed as a cute thing we want to do well at and fail, and do it in a rinky dink fashion in a basement with little skill.

NOW... if the workplace had a couple TT tables in a break room and encouraged the workers to play, the exchange might go a little more favorably. One worker would be superior, who takes lessons. This player is winning all the lunch bets and is draining the pockets of everyone. The other workers desperately want to improve to stop the flow of money from their pockets and to achieve some victories to regain bragging rights. They might even start taking lessons from that guy since he is there during lunch and is teaching them for the same money instead of defeating them all the time. Ego at a workplace is a sudden and powerful motivator sometimes, especially if the better TT player is a female, then triple the determination for the workers to improve and take lessons.

corbytoffee · Oct 10, 2013

The Germans dont seem to have a problem with Polish people playing in the national football team.

UpSideDownCarl · Oct 10, 2013

Do I think it matters that so many countries table tennis teams are dominated by players originally born and trained in China? No. But I can understand how some people might not like that for their country's national team.

What we can marvel at is how good the Chinese are at training great table tennis players, at starting them at an early age and getting them ready to be top level players. There are so many of them that there is not enough room on the Chinese team for all of them.

I do not think that there is a way for other countries to compete unless that country's government was involved in organizing a recruiting and training program for the sport that started with children being scouted for talent at the earliest ages.

Tony's Table Tennis · Oct 10, 2013

UpSideDownCarl said:
This is a complex issue. First there is the feeling from people from Germany that the women on the team are not really German and were simply imported and Nationalized to improve the team rather than training people born in Germany to be good enough to compete as they have done on the men's team. Whether that is true or not, there is that perception, as a result of the fact that so many European women's teams are made up of women who were originally born and trained in China.

Now some of the people in Germany may want to know why they can't train woman who were born in Germany and are of German ethnic decent to play at a level where they can be good enough to win. If this just happened in one country, it would be different. But there are many countries where there are players who were imported from China and those players are among the best on that countries national team. So, if people are expressing their frustration that they would want to be able to train people from their own country to be that good and win the title legitimately rather than importing players from another country to make their team stronger, perhaps it may come out the wrong way.

But then, there is that issue that Matt just mentioned which is, that these players, with all the training they had from childhood in China, could raise the bar and make people from the countries they go to train better, play better and be more competitive.

Say there was one country that was just way, way, WAY better at futball (real football, soccer) than any other country, say it was Peru, and all the European national teams were loaded and filled to the brim with players Peru--now Peruvians look nothing like Europeans, so it would be easy to tell--do you think that some people might be upset by the fact that so many European countries were importing players from Peru instead building the interest and infrastructure to train people from their own country to be on their futball teams.

It might be different if people are imported from all over the world because of their talent and not just from one country. But if 15-20 different countries are all using players from one specific country, it sort of seems to stand out.

Like, in pro sports in the USA, nobody would take much notice because in any pro sport, there are players from pretty much any country where there are great players. So in the NBA, you have players from Europe, from China, from many countries in Africa and South America. And even though, in US Hockey, there are a lot of players from Canada, they still import players from all over the world. But another difference with this, these teams are not presenting themselves as a team that represents US ethnicity. The European Table Tennis teams seem to be presented as representing the people from the country.

I guess USA is just more mature than Germans in this regards.
Since USA is made up of mixed cultures.
Some countries are just a bit behind in terms of the "international era".
Never the less, Germans are good enough to make it to the top. If they are not doing it, why not?

Tony's Table Tennis · Oct 10, 2013

corbytoffee said:
The Germans dont seem to have a problem with Polish people playing in the national football team.

hahahaha

Tony's Table Tennis · Oct 10, 2013

Der_Echte,

You are spot on.
There is many cultures or familes that set priorities differently.

I think one thing that is not helping China, is it huge population level and maybe oriental appearence.
Maybe if they look Polish, the German racist fans won't notice it.

Any ways, I aways believe the problem is inside, not outside.
Just like how 8 countries invaded China. The problem was that China was weak and allowed it to happen. Yes equally to blame the invaders, but rather control something you can, than oppose to play the blame game forever.
The national team in most countries is made up of national selectors, so I think it is unfair for sports women in this case to get abused by the general public.

AndySmith · Oct 10, 2013

At a national sporting level, we are talking about one country verses another. There have to be rules about how each player qualifies for membership of a country, otherwise there would be no national identity in a national team. It would just be a free for all - who would care about Great Britain's achievement when Team GB win Olympic Gold if the team contains ZJK, ML and XX? No one, and it wouldn't be fair to nationalise these players with the sole purpose of strengthening Team GB.

So in the case of Germany and the Netherlands, what is the history? Were the Chinese players trained, coached and educated in China, then tapped up with the sole purpose of playing TT for the national side? Or did they genuinely dream of one day becoming German or Dutch, placing true worth on becoming a citizen of that country? Because to me, there is a vast difference between a person wanting to switch nationality for social reasons, and wanting it to cynically just play at the national level.

IMO, it's not about being born in a country, it's about representing that country in an open and honest way. You should carry the passport, be a member citizen, and have spent a minimum amount of time living there (say 5 years, with the additional proviso of being educated there too perhaps). Measures to prevent national teams taking short cuts to success.

This shouldn't be about racism (although I'm sure the debate can be hijacked by racists). There should be rules in place which prevent countries from simply snatching up foreign nationals and rehoming them with the express purpose of playing at the national level. Otherwise, why bother having national teams at all? Why not just have "Planet Earth A" vs "Planet Earth B", all the way down to team Z, with 90% chinese players in there? That might be the purest representation of TT sporting excellence we have, but it's hardly the way national-level sport works.

Tony's Table Tennis · Oct 10, 2013

AndySmith.
I agree with what you said. So lets say Germany has done all of the above, and now still this?
According to the article, it talks about Racism in there. So I don't think it matters if you or me say this is racism or not, the article has already mentioned it.

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