I am disgusted!

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 19, 2013

This is actually the thing that people should realize here. What Fan Zhendong is doing is actually the next evolution in table tennis. There is a reason why he is that good that young. He has the backhand like very few people have. That backhand is the same kind Zhang Zike was developing and that Dimitrij Ovtcharov also has. It is a combination of a European backhand and the kind of backhand that a reverse penhold player would use.

That is not it though. That backhand is really a great weapon especially for over the table looping on return of serve and third ball. But, this is where Fan is special. That is a Chinese forehand and a European forehand mixed. Sometimes he does just forearm snap and the forehand is a very small stroke. Not as often, but sometimes he does the whole arm swing of the Chinese forehand. The result is, he has pretty decent power but he gets to every effin' thing. And he keeps moving the ball around because he can hit the ball at pretty much any angle at will.

When Wang Liqin came up, it was a new innovation. That was a giant forehand but from a shakehand grip. It is almost like a penhold forehand with the shakehand backhand. However, that is one giant forehand and the backhand, in comparison to what guys are doing today, is not so great. So, if the ball is coming back as quickly as it is now, and it is going all over that style is, in the future going to have a hard time against guys who can play the way Fan is playing. But, what Fan is doing will be picked up by other players. People will figure out the nuts and bolts of the techniques he is using and why he is sooooo good in rallies. When Waldner came up, that blocking added to the looping skills and the two winged attack was a new thing.

What Fan is doing is the direction the new techniques and developments in table tennis play are going. But European countries and other countries will catch on to that evolution of the sport.

ttmonster · Nov 19, 2013

You exactly summarized the technicalities Carl. I have one more observation , I haven't seen Fan flicking with his forehand that much, not sure why , any thoughts on that ? Also, because he is using two different techniques for close to the table v/s away from the table which is a little difficult to master on the backhand side , there are still some chinks in the backhand . I saw he is compensating for the wide backhand by reaching out and using his wrist but typically that would have a problem when the ball slows down. Thats what Vladi was trying to do against him, create some doubt by giving some junk. I was really disappointed with Dima though, I really don't understand why he was trying to take him on on speed and not variety . Nonetheless we should celebrate this new talent and hope he takes the game to greater heights. I just wish we had more touch players with greater imagination who can effectively do a post mortem of his game in the table itself

WiWa · Nov 19, 2013

Let me just point out that Ma Long beat Boll 4-0 when he was 16, and had much more trouble with him 5-6 years after the date. People are just getting used to Fan's game, whereas the Chinese coaches make sure he already knows every detail about how to beat the established names.

It's really not unlikely that Fan will experience a setback in his performance, simply because others will figure out how to beat him. Give it some time

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 19, 2013

ttmonster said:
I haven't seen Fan flicking with his forehand that much, not sure why , any thoughts on that ?

ZJK does not flick much with FH either. He moves over to FH side and uses BH. Same deal. Same return of serve technique. Even if he can do it, over the table is safer with BH if you can get there and get back into position.

Tony's Table Tennis · Nov 19, 2013

Good post UpSideDownCarl

Many people don't understand table tennis enough, and all these see is Chinese, and there see is 16 a years old and start hating. In a way, it is also discrimination. If FZD was a Japanese or America or any other nationality, I doubt people will be throwing up etc.

The truth is, the sport keeps improving, and if you can't keep up, you are out of it.
This is no different to any other sport out there.

Now imagine if your kid trains hard for 10 years, and does something well - same as getting straight As in school etc. But receives hatred discussion on forums. And labelled how your son is going to hurt the game and what not....... sad for human beings I must say.

ttmonster · Nov 19, 2013

UpSideDownCarl said:
ZJK does not flick much with FH either. He moves over to FH side and uses BH. Same deal. Same return of serve technique. Even if he can do it, over the table is safer with BH if you can get there and get back into position.

This I am aware of Carl, they want the ball on the backhand side knowing BH-BH there are few people who can hold their own against them . However, Fan has a much more strong forehand than ZJK with more variety, would not it be logical for him to play more forehand flicks than ZJK ?

Tony's Table Tennis · Nov 19, 2013

ttmonster said:
This I am aware of Carl, they want the ball on the backhand side knowing BH-BH there are few people who can hold their own against them . However, Fan has a much more strong forehand than ZJK with more variety, would not it be logical for him to play more forehand flicks than ZJK ?

Correct.
Also with BH flick updated, the FH flick is not as common any more.
BH flick is superior and have greater variences compared to FH
so no reason to use FH flick. So it is not a technical disadvantage, but rather an advantage in strategies

TTFrenzy · Nov 19, 2013

ttmonster said:
This I am aware of Carl, they want the ball on the backhand side knowing BH-BH there are few people who can hold their own against them . However, Fan has a much more strong forehand than ZJK with more variety, would not it be logical for him to play more forehand flicks than ZJK ?

I dont think FZD has more variety. He just kills every shot (and maybe sometimes plays FH topspin down the line)... Zhang Jike and Wang hao are the best in variation when it comes to loops and every stroke in general.

They are not so mechanical players like FZD XX or Ma long, who play like automatons

johndol · Nov 19, 2013

WiWa said:
Let me just point out that Ma Long beat Boll 4-0 when he was 16, and had much more trouble with him 5-6 years after the date. People are just getting used to Fan's game, whereas the Chinese coaches make sure he already knows every detail about how to beat the established names.

It's really not unlikely that Fan will experience a setback in his performance, simply because others will figure out how to beat him. Give it some time

Good point there wiwa. It was the same as when yan an first enter the international scene early this year and that time he almost beat the chinese dragon twice. I would not say that FZD will become a legend in the making, because it is only after 2 tournament and he did have a looong way to go to be the best. But before that time comes, we just might want to enjoy his presence and hope he will add some sparks to the current scene. To those people who are tired waiting for an epic match of ML vs ZJK saga, FZD most probably can fill up the hole and fulfill what we desires the most. A match worthy to be called the best

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2

Tony's Table Tennis · Nov 19, 2013

johndol said:
Good point there wiwa. It was the same as when yan an first enter the international scene early this year and that time he almost beat the chinese dragon twice. I would not say that FZD will become a legend in the making, because it is only after 2 tournament and he did have a looong way to go to be the best. But before that time comes, we just might want to enjoy his presence and hope he will add some sparks to the current scene. To those people who are tired waiting for an epic match of ML vs ZJK saga, FZD most probably can fill up the hole and fulfill what we desires the most. A match worthy to be called the best

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2

I agree with where you are coming from.
But it is not just 2 tournaments.

He did very well in the super league and national games.
Both are considered par or higher level than these world tours.
Not to mention, he has talking over the number 1 player role in his team, Wang Hao is number 2 now.

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 19, 2013

ttmonster said:
This I am aware of Carl, they want the ball on the backhand side knowing BH-BH there are few people who can hold their own against them . However, Fan has a much more strong forehand than ZJK with more variety, would not it be logical for him to play more forehand flicks than ZJK ?

He takes the backhand to the forehand side over the table to take the shot. If you can do the footwork it is a safer and more powerful shot over the table than the forehand. Once the ball is coming past the table he uses his forehand.

TTFrenzy said:
I dont think FZD has more variety. He just kills every shot (and maybe sometimes plays FH topspin down the line)... Zhang Jike and Wang hao are the best in variation when it comes to loops and every stroke in general.

They are not so mechanical players like FZD XX or Ma long, who play like automatons

I actually do not think this is accurate. FZD's forehand is not so big. It is versatile. He has the short strokes and the big ones. His shots have spin, but they are not all out rips most of the time. When the ball goes really fast, a lot of the time he is counter looping and using the other player's power but he is taking a little stroke with just a forearm snap and the bend of the knees. This is why he is so ready and able to move to the next shot. All those guys, Ma Long, ZJK, XX Wang Hao, they all take bigger strokes most of the time than FZD. That is why FZD can stay a little closer to the table and and get to the next ball. That is actually the major thing he is doing. He has added a little stroke to the repertoire of the Chinese forehand. He can use the giant Chinese forehand. But he only uses it sometimes. More of the time, he uses placement and a short stroke to get to the next ball. And he keeps on moving the placement so the opponent is not as comfortable on the returns. What he does is get people out of position. Not blow the ball past them like Ma Long. When he blows the ball past them, often it is because they took a big swing or he caught them out of position.

That is at least how it looks to me. He has plenty of power, but he is using less power of his own than the other Chinese players most of the time.

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 19, 2013

UpSideDownCarl said:
He takes the backhand to the forehand side over the table to take the shot. If you can do the footwork it is a safer and more powerful shot over the table than the forehand. Once the ball is coming past the table he uses his forehand.

Here is the mechanics of why the backhand is more effective over the table. It starts as a much more compact shot. Over the table with the backhand, you can get the full 180-degree rotation of the bat. The tip of the bat can start pointing towards you and and end pointing towards the opponent which means it is a full stroke and you get full spin with the full speed of the shot. Because of the nature of the shot, you can really generate a ton of spin. When you spin the ball with that shot you can control it and make it straight topspin or add either sidespin (insideout or regular) based on how you contact the ball. Because the difference in bat angle for top, regular side or inside out side is a very small degree of difference, it makes it harder to read which spin and how much spin is on the ball. For the same reason, it is really hard to tell where the ball will be placed on that banana flick until the ball is leaving the racket. A player can go down the line, to the middle or cross court (opposite cross court from the forehand side) with it and it is hard to tell which one until it is too late. The player has the same range of options and angles whether he is on the backhand side or the forehand side taking an over the table backhand banana loop.

Whereas, a forehand flick, you know pretty much where it is going and what is on it right from the outset. And it is hard to get the full motion. Ma Long has an amazing forehand flick. He can hide it till the last moment and then pull it out. But these guys don't even have to hide that they are going to use the over the table loop and the opponent still has no idea where it will go until too late.

TTFrenzy · Nov 19, 2013

I think FZD has smaller strokes just because he is shorter, he is not using a much different attack than the main chinese technique. Same technique in FH have WAng Hao Yan An & Ma long with small differences . WH uses a shoulder forearm snap, YA forearm snap & waist, ML the same but with bigger backswing. XX same technique again but with more wrist and shoulder snap.

ZJK on the other hand along with Ma Lin are the only chinese that have a larger variety of shots using their FH. They think more about the efficiency of each stroke against a different ball, all the other players just execute automatic mechanical moves developed by multiball exercises.

I cant see any "variety" (in the way I understand it as a word, maybe you have something else in mind) in FZD shots. And this weakness is clear and maybe its because he is not experienced yet. Whenever the topspin loop or block has a slow tempo or goes from fast to slow, FZD makes a mistake.

Ma long vs FZD in national games and ZJK vs FZD in world championships is a characteristic example

w

aLeX-12345 · Nov 19, 2013

That's a bit xtreme

racaldas · Nov 19, 2013

ImaPersson said:
I´m German and what I have been watching yesterday wasn´t that bad, in fact it was great. I think Dima made a very positiv progression in the last year. He beat Timo three times in a row, ok Timo was´nt really on the top of his performance level.
Dima beat some Chinese Players in the SuperLeague, progressed to Nr. 5 in the world. Get European Champion. I think, that´s quite a lot. European players are not Chinese that´s true, but would we want them to be ? Me not.
And if I see all the developments in China, this uge buildings to change the way of big streams to get water to the north. The pollution and the unhuman treatment of children in schools to drill them to definite therselves just by their achievments. I don´t want that for my children. To be Nr. One is just one way of living, and not everybody can get it. Maybe it´s better for all of us not to go on, in this bigger, better, more way. Finally it kills the planet.
Dima was a bit exhausted from the day before, the great and really breathtaking Match against Shioto cost´s a lot of power. So thats human, he´s not a robot.
If you can´t or won´t be like Chinese, be diffrent. I like to see Samsonov, Freitas, Kreanga, Pitchford, Franziska, Niwa, Mizutani and all these guys. Also Winter and Solja, they progressed too.
But the Chinese are the best, so what. Vettel wins 8 in a row, quite boring.
In womens doubles the two japanese Girls were about to win, but they failed, thats sports. Boll/Franziska won but it was nearly lost and so tight, thats also sports. But Ai Fukuhara was laughing and had fun with her Chinese opponent Wen, that was great and also an important thing in sports to respect your opponent and after the fight friendship is possible.
Boll and Dima in China at the marriage of Cheng Qi, thats also part of sports. Peace!

I agree, PEACE !

racaldas · Nov 19, 2013

ttmonster said:
Table tennis is an individual sport and the better man in a head to head wins !! And if the better man is a 16 year old teenager from China , so be it !!! The thing is there is no such thing as a country destroying a sport by dominating it !! If that was the case, then Brazil or Argentina would have destroyed football or soccer, west indies in the 70s and Australia in the 80s and 90s would have destroyed cricket, America would have destroyed basketball and the list goes on endlessly . What dominance does is it challenges the rest of the world to come up with something better , helps devise new strategies and skills and overall, helps the sport grow. If samsonov at his sunset years can give him trouble think what waldner at his prime would have done to him !!! I think there is a lot of negative attitude in this sport , and I am sad to say its a lot of complaining and whining instead of looking at the brighter side. We are lucky to witness a legend in the making. Pele, Maradona, Ali , Waldner , Tendulkar, Federer etc. all were prodigies that went on to become legends . What if thats what is happening right now in table tennis ? ....... Lets wait and watch and please please enjoy this beautiful game of ours. The nationality does not matter.

that's it, TT !

racaldas · Nov 19, 2013

UpSideDownCarl said:
This is actually the thing that people should realize here. What Fan Zhendong is doing is actually the next evolution in table tennis. There is a reason why he is that good that young. He has the backhand like very few people have. That backhand is the same kind Zhang Zike was developing and that Dimitrij Ovtcharov also has. It is a combination of a European backhand and the kind of backhand that a reverse penhold player would use.

That is not it though. That backhand is really a great weapon especially for over the table looping on return of serve and third ball. But, this is where Fan is special. That is a Chinese forehand and a European forehand mixed. Sometimes he does just forearm snap and the forehand is a very small stroke. Not as often, but sometimes he does the whole arm swing of the Chinese forehand. The result is, he has pretty decent power but he gets to every effin' thing. And he keeps moving the ball around because he can hit the ball at pretty much any angle at will.

When Wang Liqin came up, it was a new innovation. That was a giant forehand but from a shakehand grip. It is almost like a penhold forehand with the shakehand backhand. However, that is one giant forehand and the backhand, in comparison to what guys are doing today, is not so great. So, if the ball is coming back as quickly as it is now, and it is going all over that style is, in the future going to have a hard time against guys who can play the way Fan is playing. But, what Fan is doing will be picked up by other players. People will figure out the nuts and bolts of the techniques he is using and why he is sooooo good in rallies. When Waldner came up, that blocking added to the looping skills and the two winged attack was a new thing.

What Fan is doing is the direction the new techniques and developments in table tennis play are going. But European countries and other countries will catch on to that evolution of the sport.

good analises, Carl !

redonix76 · Nov 19, 2013

It's funny how just 1 player can bring out the ignorance in so many people. 1 player!!!!!! I would agree with all the negativity if every single Chinese players came out like FZD, but obviously this is not the case.

You all think that he's a robot but yet how come other Chinese players are not the same if they all train the same amount and the same way? Training and hard work can only go so far but you need talent to to take advantage of that.

Everyone needs to calm down and think rationally a second here, please. How many hundreds of thousand of professional Chinese players are there in China? How come only a handful of them are as good as ML, ZJK, or FZD? it's very obvious...these guys have talent something that the other 100,000+ other Chinese player may not have, therefore they are no where near as good as the top players of China or even other countries.

Matt Hetherington · Nov 20, 2013

I don't see how this is new, Ma Long was just as dominant when he was that age and everyone was excited not in depression mode. The European's and other non-asian countries know exactly what they are up against, I'm sure they don't regard Fan Zhendong as 'just a 16 year old boy' or for that matter even care if he's young, he's trained hard and deserved to win. The professionals can handle it

WiWa · Nov 20, 2013

UpSideDownCarl said:
He takes the backhand to the forehand side over the table to take the shot. If you can do the footwork it is a safer and more powerful shot over the table than the forehand. Once the ball is coming past the table he uses his forehand.

I actually do not think this is accurate. FZD's forehand is not so big. It is versatile. He has the short strokes and the big ones. His shots have spin, but they are not all out rips most of the time. When the ball goes really fast, a lot of the time he is counter looping and using the other player's power but he is taking a little stroke with just a forearm snap and the bend of the knees. This is why he is so ready and able to move to the next shot. All those guys, Ma Long, ZJK, XX Wang Hao, they all take bigger strokes most of the time than FZD. That is why FZD can stay a little closer to the table and and get to the next ball. That is actually the major thing he is doing. He has added a little stroke to the repertoire of the Chinese forehand. He can use the giant Chinese forehand. But he only uses it sometimes. More of the time, he uses placement and a short stroke to get to the next ball. And he keeps on moving the placement so the opponent is not as comfortable on the returns. What he does is get people out of position. Not blow the ball past them like Ma Long. When he blows the ball past them, often it is because they took a big swing or he caught them out of position.

That is at least how it looks to me. He has plenty of power, but he is using less power of his own than the other Chinese players most of the time.

That part of his game actually reminds me of a women's playing style, especially the BH haha. Maybe it is superior to men's style after all

I am disgusted!

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