Who is best - Zhang Jike or Ma Long?

bricephan said:

Regardless what ZJK's fans are trying to prove here, I wish ZJK should improve a huge more to make the game against ML more interesting and intense.... I am feeling the game between two getting boring when ML always crushed ZJK by far score.. Somehow, ML-XX matches are getting more interesting, or so against young guns like FZD, YA, ZY...

Tell your ZJK improve more his short game to be able to beat ML and not to lose to young guns so frequently

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My friend zhang jike was winning 2-0 in a convincing way and he started playing carelessly after the 3rd set and wasnt able to find his rhythm. Ma Long didnt do anything different in all of his games that's why he lost to Xu Xin in the final. Anyway this whole debate about who is better is pointless, we must enjoy the game and the better player 99% of the times gets the titles, that is for sure

TTFrenzy said:

My friend zhang jike was winning 2-0 in a convincing way and he started playing carelessly after the 3rd set and wasnt able to find his rhythm. Ma Long didnt do anything different in all of his games that's why he lost to Xu Xin in the final. Anyway this whole debate about who is better is pointless, we must enjoy the game and the better player 99% of the times gets the titles, that is for sure

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I completely agree with you my friend TTFrenzy. However, I find this fun . Since the topic is "Who is best" we should consider more things than just "short games" and stuff.

I have two more arguments for Zhang Jike :

1. He is more stylish and handsome, confirmed my tabletennista and the man himself ( http://tabletennista.com/2014/1/why...-very-marketable-videos-p&utm_campaign=fb-tta )

2. Also , he is the first Chinese Player to give his acceptance speech in english !! that is an accomplishment most of the players ( past , current and future ) in the CNT don't have .

So right now hands down he is the best !!!

However, on a serious note, I strongly believe currently games are determined by quality of serve and receive. And both of this facets of table tennis requires complete focus , concentration and a relaxed mind. This is what makes the game so difficult ( you have to be focussed and relaxed at the same time ) .

In the last encounter, Zhang Jike lost it after couple of sets. His quality of serve and receive was not as good as it is normally . I guess that is because he is coming back from an injury and also that he has not played competitive table tennis at the highest level for quite a few months. So to me this result is inconsequential .

The big take away from Pro Tour Grand Finals was the win of Xu Xin against Ma Long . Again this does not prove conclusively who is the better player. that can be done only at the end of their respective careers . But I personally want Xu Xin to be more successful , for nothing else but the fact that we need more penholders at the top level . We don't want pen hold style to become an extinct art.

Yeap Xu Xin's achievement is great. I think no one expected him to perform so well. His shots were godlike

As for ZJK I think he thought that he had cornered ma long and didnt keep his performance stable, I dont think it was because of an injury besides serve & receive demand, as you said correctly, a calm state of mind and focus at the same time, ZJK was not so focused making unusual mistakes for his level

bricephan said:

Regardless what ZJK's fans are trying to prove here, I wish ZJK should improve a huge more to make the game against ML more interesting and intense.... I am feeling the game between two getting boring when ML always crushed ZJK by far score.. Somehow, ML-XX matches are getting more interesting, or so against young guns like FZD, YA, ZY...

Tell your ZJK improve more his short game to be able to beat ML and not to lose to young guns so frequently

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not crushing ZJK by any means...but i agree with sense of not only ZJK but also ML should step up more in their game bcoz their match recently are not that entertaining...i dont know why but maybe they have lost some of their motivation...i talking about both and this is bad to Ma Long since he is not accomplish yet...or maybe the physical abilities are not there anymore (catching old)?...by the way, this is the example of their match that I think interesting that maybe is forgotten or slipped out by some fans..

The last time ML played against ZJK was in CTTSL and ML won 6-0 .

khuonglt said:

The last time ML played against ZJK was in CTTSL and ML won 6-0 .

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ZJK fans take this one not as a crushing lost, but it is more like ZJK did not play his best even though his club manager wanted to ^^

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The thing here is, these guys are both great and they are both underachievers for different reasons. I think ZJK can be amazing when he really has the fire to win. And then he can totally suck like he can't play at all when he seems not to have the motivation. I actually think ZJK has something going on with him where he has Manic/Depressive mood swings. To me, it looks like, in the 3rd, 4th and 5th games of that match at the Grand Finals, he just turned off.

Ma Long has amazing talent and when he has a lead, he is hard to beat. But there are times when someone pushes him in a way that is unexpected and he can lose to players he should never lose against. Or, under real pressure, he seems to fall apart sometimes.
And
I am not a fan of either ZJK or ML. I do think they are both amazing when they are on. And both of them can be really bad when they are not on.

It is unfortunate for ML and ML fans that in the last two World Championships that ML was not on and ZJK was. And it is fortunate for ZJK and his fans that he was on at the appropriate times. But it does seem like, ZJK knows how to peak at the right time. And ML peaks when it is not as important. It would be fun to see them play when they were both really on.

bricephan said:

ZJK fans take this one not as a crushing lost, but it is more like ZJK did not play his best even though his club manager wanted to ^^

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If you were a grand slam champion do you really get motivated to play your best in super league? I don't think so. In my club i don't play my best against very opponent but just against those who have more than 40% chance to beat me.

nice sherlock like analysis Carl . I know you are right , but its sometimes fun to choose a side and rankle the others. But that aside, who are you a fan of in comtemporary table tennis , Vladi ?

UpSideDownCarl said:

The thing here is, these guys are both great and they are both underachievers for different reasons. I think ZJK can be amazing when he really has the fire to win. And then he can totally suck like he can't play at all when he seems not to have the motivation. I actually think ZJK has something going on with him where he has Manic/Depressive mood swings. To me, it looks like, in the 3rd, 4th and 5th games of that match at the Grand Finals, he just turned off.

Ma Long has amazing talent and when he has a lead, he is hard to beat. But there are times when someone pushes him in a way that is unexpected and he can lose to players he should never lose against. Or, under real pressure, he seems to fall apart sometimes.
And
I am not a fan of either ZJK or ML. I do think they are both amazing when they are on. And both of them can be really bad when they are not on.

It is unfortunate for ML and ML fans that in the last two World Championships that ML was not on and ZJK was. And it is fortunate for ZJK and his fans that he was on at the appropriate times. But it does seem like, ZJK knows how to peak at the right time. And ML peaks when it is not as important. It would be fun to see them play when they were both really on.

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ma long is the strongest

I'm sure that Ma Long is the strongest player
but maybe Jhang Jike and Xu Xin could communicate with masses better than him

Tony's Table Tennis said:

Who is the best - result between the 2 of them, or the result of the 2 of them?

Result between the 2 of them, Ma Long has more wins
Results of the 2 of them - Zhang Jike is leading by far

Number 1 in China means nothing, results in the World counts more - or that is atleast the view of CNT management.

If Ma Long beat ZJK = Ma Long is the best, then, many people are "best" as ZJK has quite a few losses the after his grand slam lol

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I love both players. I just see a big bias towards ZJK in the comments here, so will try to counter that a bit

In the world counts you mention, ML has been number one in the ITTF world rankings an extensive period of time (with some interruptions). In this aspect, ZJK lags quite behind ML or Wang Hao... Considering mental toughness, he's been quite consistent in mentally falling apart over and over in the majority of ITTF events and that just creates a safe cushion between him and the #1 rank. In fact, there have been so many matches the last two years where he just gave up in the middle for whatever reason that I'm usually worried to watch him - it may get pretty frustrating and feels like a waste of time. That is not mental toughness. Arguing that his opponents are not good enough for him to even try - come on, winning matches is his (only) job, if they are so easy, just kill them... But he just somehow cannot deliver in that. ML mental toughness seem to be much more consistent. He clocks in and wins, over and over. Yes, he has experience of losing in big events and that holds him back compared to ZJK, but in 99% of his play time he's the dragon and never gives up even when things don't go well.

Attitude-wise, ML makes TT a cool sport to watch. Frankly, if TT were just about Ovtcharov's screams, Maze's barrier kicking, and *somebody else's* forgetting to shake hands, it would be pretty sad.

ZJK has the best BH in the world and ML the best forehand!

Alborz said:

If you were a grand slam champion do you really get motivated to play your best in super league? I don't think so. In my club i don't play my best against very opponent but just against those who have more than 40% chance to beat me.

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Are you talking abt the match between ZJK and ML? What a immatured logic

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a thing my coach used to say-
you don't call yourself better than somebody by beating them,
but rather how both of you do against national (or international) competition

i think you could determine who's "better" simply by their current World Ranking, since they earned those points by beating other people.
Ma Long is in front of ZJK at the moment, so Ma Long would theoretically be the better player.

It's an argument that will continue to go round and round in circles. Ma Long has failed at the World Championships essentially that is his only failing. He won the world cup and had a flawless record at the London Olympics in the teams, but was not included in the singles due to his performance on the big stage previously.

Zhang Jike knows how to win the big events that's for sure. But lets face it, he can still show up on any given day and play far below his potential level and lose to the likes of Taku Takakiwa, Chen Chien-An, Joo Se Hyuk. In saying that Ma Long also had a phase were he lost to Lee Sang Su and Koki Niwa. Don't forget that Ma Long has won an incomprehensible number of World Tour events though and has been World Number 1 on more occasions and for longer than Zhang Jike.

I think at the end of the day both have strong and weak points which you could pick at and debate over endlessly. I think Ma Long needs to win at least a World Championships in order to shift the balance a little more in his favour atm.

bricephan said:

Are you talking abt the match between ZJK and ML? What a immatured logic

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I wasn't tacking about that. Ma Long defeated Zhang Jike twice 3-0 but it doesn't mean he is better than Zhang Jike. I have said this before: Ma Long has better technique and Zhang Jike has better mentality and that mentality is his key of winning those major titles. Ma Long's better technique give him more chance to beat Zhang Jike in normal matches but if they face each other in final of WTTC or Olympic Games, Ma Long will fall apart because of his weak mentality.
Both of them are the best in their own ways.

ttmonster said:

nice sherlock like analysis Carl . I know you are right , but its sometimes fun to choose a side and rankle the others. But that aside, who are you a fan of in comtemporary table tennis , Vladi ?

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I love Vladi. I love Timo. I do really like watching Fan Zhendong. I think we can expect some fun table tennis from him. I actually like Xu Xin a lot too. I just don't think he is really as good as the other CNT players. I do like watching all the guys from the CNT but I often find myself rooting against them because I would like to see people from other countries win more. I really do like watching Maze play also, but he has been injured so much.

There is this guy from France named Damien Provost who I like. He is a good player and a good teacher. He is fun to watch play.

But my heart is really still stuck with those two Swedes who were at their best in the 90s: Waldner and Persson. That whole Swedish team was beautiful to watch. They were very complete players. They could attack, they went on defense. When they went on defense they would find ways to get back on offense. They used touch, drop shots. They used all the skills you can in table tennis. And when I see someone who is trying to do that, I will usually like watching them and start rooting for them.

I'd like to add one thing that we should keep in mind.
Let us assume that you are trying to promote this sport (like what ITTF is doing).
Now, if you want to focus on some aspects of a sport to get attention of people
NOT familiar with the sport, who would you choose to spend time on?

Option 1: a player who has won some big titles, tears his shirt off when wins a title,
can speak some English, is handsome, is a fashion guy, ....

Option 2: a player who has the record in winning Pro Tour titles, record in winning two
titles without dropping a set, record in most matches won in a row, record in most Pro
Tours in a row, probably being number 1 in the rankings for the longest time, ....

I think the answer is easy.
People not in this sport, don't even care about Option 2.
That is why most media (outside China) is focused on ZJK.

These two players are just perfect and better than other current players (excluding WH).
We can only choose the 'better player' when these two play each other in big tournaments for a number
of times (maybe 5 times!). In all other tournaments, there is less stress to test ML's mentality and ZJK is
'unmotivated'.
But, unfortunately this won't happen and the answer to this post will be
unrevealed forever to us. But for the media, the answer is already obvious!

To put this in simple words, there is no 'better player' between these two but there is a 'better promoter'.

Some ZJK fans might say that ML has lost in big tournaments so he is not better. But, if this is our logic, then
WH is the worst player on Earth because he has lost all big matches (Olympics and WTTC finals) but he is not.

Both of them are the best.

I agree to most of what arhabib has to say except the last two lines. Wang hao is not the worst player but he is a big underachiever, the kind of talent and innovation he brought to sport , few have, the backing he got from Liu Guoliang , few have , so its definitely a big black mark on his career that he was not able to complete his Grand Slam. Even when ZJK and ML was ruling the roost for the last couple of years, he was able to defeat ML with better tactics and game sense. So its clear that when push comes to shove he has "choked" more often than not in the finals and it definitely goes against him. I still remember the WC final against ZJK where he was so far ahead and ZJK was able to come back, a champion like WH should have been able to close the door during such situations. And I firmly believe on these occasions ZJK is better than the rest. Okay so here is my view point on this whole debate, all these players are different creatures :

1. ML is like a roger federer , who has the best form ever , but he has always played like the roger either before he started his grand slam run or after he finished his grand slam dominance. Even liu guoliang accepts that he has mental deficiencies that probably he was able to turn around in the Chinese National Championship against FZD. But , guys be real, that was his first come from behind win in a big tournament. But still was not against an inform Wang Hao or ZJK who are big international winners but against an up and coming 16 year old pro tour winner, so according to me it does not say much and Liu is just trying to boost Ma's confidence levels. Unless he wins a World Championship or an Olympics , we can't anoint him as "the King" and he knows that. But considering his "great form" and smooth technique he will have more years to do this if he can fix his mental failings. So good luck to him. And I believe even an WC win will do because really the Olympic committee has made it a farce by limiting the numbers of players to 2. All the best players in the world should get to play Olympics. period !!

2. Zhang Jike is a little bit like a Serena Williams who does not wake up unless the gauntlet is really thrown at him. I agree with Carl that there are other mental issues with him where he appears disinterested most of the times. Even Liu Guoliang set him the target of reaching Semis in WC , it rubbed him off the wrong way and after he got out of jail against Vladi he virtually destroyed the competition . I remember seeing the match against Xu Xin and he made Xu look like an amateur. So , I believe at his best he has been better than Ma Long in crunch matches till now and the record confirms that . His technique , especially his forehand is different than Ma's and because of the spin he generates by taking the ball late he will always have injury issues with his back and shoulder , hence he will pick and choose his tournaments and not try to dominate the Pro Tour as Ma Long has. I think even he does not try to because he knows that his career will be cut short due to injury if he tries to win every other tournament. And, nobody in the sport currently knows to peak at the right time better than him. In the recent history of the sport only Waldner was able to do that.

Anyways, both are great in their own ways but we can have this debate if both of them hang up their boots at the same time like Ma Lin and Wang Liqin did and we can retrospectively look at their careers without any bias. Till then lets enjoy the best of Ma Long and Zhang Jike and hope that they meet at WC, Olympics and World Cups to come and that Matt is forced to add more shots in this video ..........

Anyone noticed their matches are getting boring? Just see their match in the final of 2011 Austrian Open, 2012 Slovenian open and 2013 World Tour Grand Finals.
First one is the best match ever. Second is also good but not as good as first one. The last one is still good but not as good as the first two and all of those matches are 7 set matches. If it goes like this then a Zhang Jike vs Ma Long match will become a very boring match. In 2011 and 2012 Zhang Jike badly wants to beat Ma long because he was never defeated him before. But after 2013 i looks like Zhang Jike has give up the fight against Ma Long, probably because he has defeated Ma Long in 2012 and after that or he has completed his Grand Slam. So if they not face each other in a major competition then it will not be as good as their matches before in 2011 and 2012. We will lose those great matches in future