Correct movements in Table Tennis

gen39 · Apr 8, 2014

Hey guys!

I really need your help here.
We all know that TT is not a easy sport and you really need practice in order to execute nicely such strokes, movements in general.
Well, I'm just wondering if we should follow exactly the same what others do in executing a skill? Or it's better to perform in a way that you are comfortable with it? For example in executing a drive.

Is there such a thing that we should do this stroke in exactly this manner? Is it the only way to do that?

I'm just an starting player. And whenever I do a drive with somebody else, this brother will always tell me to twist my waist more with no lots of hand movements. But the ball goes to the right place! I thought I was doing the right thing but then he said it was wrong and what he said is the right way. And my body can't just execute what he said easily.

Thank you in advance guys!

MDanielCRO · Apr 8, 2014

gen39 said:
Hey guys!

I really need your help here.
We all know that TT is not a easy sport and you really need practice in order to execute nicely such strokes, movements in general.
Well, I'm just wondering if we should follow exactly the same what others do in executing a skill? Or it's better to perform in a way that you are comfortable with it? For example in executing a drive.

Is there such a thing that we should do this stroke in exactly this manner? Is it the only way to do that?

I'm just an starting player. And whenever I do a drive with somebody else, this brother will always tell me to twist my waist more with no lots of hand movements. But the ball goes to the right place! I thought I was doing the right thing but then he said it was wrong and what he said is the right way. And my body can't just execute what he said easily.

Thank you in advance guys!

You must know that we are all different. We don't have the same body, hands, legs, etc.. Everybody is different, and everyone has different movements. You should make correct movements but with your improvisation.

You can do some strokes with your own technique, and it can look very good to you, but if you do it correctly it will be much better, stronger, and more consistent. I know it is not easy but you need to listen to this kind of advices.

Der_Echte · Apr 8, 2014

There is NO one PERFECT way for everything, but there are concepts and foundations that effective shots have.

A few of the foundations is that the basic FH topspin... the power is starting from your lower body. That involves getting down bending knees and twisting the trunk. How much is individual. Positioning is important. Timing is important. Being loose and not tense is important. Impacting the ball in the effective strike zone helps ensure the maximum transfer of power and assists control. Staying on balance and recovery are important. Coming back to ready position and a position to continue attack/rally is important.

These are some of the foundations of effective shots. Obviously, in a match, the opponents are doing a good job of placing us in situations where we are not in optimal position, do not have optimal time to react, do not have as much time as we want to prepare and execute. Therefore, we do our best with what we got. Not every shot we make in the match will be the most efficient and effective shot it can be, since opponent has a lot to say about that.

Having said that, while the Fh topspin is a pretty dynamic shot that can be done on the move with some measure of efficiency and effectiveness... I do NOT think it is wise to practice the Fh topspin in an inefficient manner when your objective is to practice in a controlled environment to isolate and build on your foundations. It is possible your partner is seeing something you do not to make your form more effective. We all do not learn how to be completely effective our first year or two or three.

Of course there is not a SINGLE way to do everything, but there are concepts and foundations that get us to be able to cope more effectively with what is coming at us.

Der_Echte · Apr 8, 2014

The endstate of this training is to make effective shots that are re-producible under pressure and will land time and time again with quality. That is normally the objective of doing stuff over and over and over and over, so we can reproduce it under pressure without thinking about it, so we can instantly move out and deal with the situation. When we have fundamental flaws in our shots, anticipation, movement, balance, etc... they will show up under pressure in a match for sure.

izra · Apr 8, 2014

sure you can execute a drive with only your hand. whatever works is good. but if you twisted your waist and used energy from the body your shot would be more powerful, more consistent and more energy efficient.

gen39 · Apr 8, 2014

Der_Echte said:
There is NO one PERFECT way for everything, but there are concepts and foundations that effective shots have.

A few of the foundations is that the basic FH topspin... the power is starting from your lower body. That involves getting down bending knees and twisting the trunk. How much is individual. Positioning is important. Timing is important. Being loose and not tense is important. Impacting the ball in the effective strike zone helps ensure the maximum transfer of power and assists control. Staying on balance and recovery are important. Coming back to ready position and a position to continue attack/rally is important.

These are some of the foundations of effective shots. Obviously, in a match, the opponents are doing a good job of placing us in situations where we are not in optimal position, do not have optimal time to react, do not have as much time as we want to prepare and execute. Therefore, we do our best with what we got. Not every shot we make in the match will be the most efficient and effective shot it can be, since opponent has a lot to say about that.

Having said that, while the Fh topspin is a pretty dynamic shot that can be done on the move with some measure of efficiency and effectiveness... I do NOT think it is wise to practice the Fh topspin in an inefficient manner when your objective is to practice in a controlled environment to isolate and build on your foundations. It is possible your partner is seeing something you do not to make your form more effective. We all do not learn how to be completely effective our first year or two or three.

Of course there is not a SINGLE way to do everything, but there are concepts and foundations that get us to be able to cope more effectively with what is coming at us.

Thanks Der_Echte! Really appreciates your post

But one thing I also want to know about is that, will it be good/advantageous for me if I proceed to practicing on how to execute other strokes?
You know, whenever we train and that brother in the team saw us (beginners) practicing FH topspin he would say we should need to execute the FH drive correctly in order to proceed.

Der_Echte · Apr 8, 2014

gen39 said:
Thanks Der_Echte! Really appreciates your post

But one thing I also want to know about is that, will it be good/advantageous for me if I proceed to practicing on how to execute other strokes?
You know, whenever we train and that brother in the team saw us (beginners) practicing FH topspin he would say we should need to execute the FH drive correctly in order to proceed.

Every coach has their own different view of how and when progression should happen. Some also have their own view of how to go about "fixing" a player's stroke. Some want the player to blow it all up and start from scratch zero and their method is LAW. Some coaches work with what they got and change one or two things at a time and also believe in introducing the player to new stuff early in development.

So... it depends on the philosophy of the coach for this. As times change, coaches are also changing philosophy whether they realize it or not. The more advanced our training and techniques become, the more we discover what gets us there and not. So naturally, mindsets can change.

Some coaches (like just about EVERY Korean coach) want the player to demonstrate near perfection in something before moving on. So these kind of coaches will (once the player gets to the stage of doing FH drive single ball practice) keep the player doing FH to FH until they can do 100 or more in a row correct at a medium fast or fast pace. These kind of coaches will have the player stay on that drill and introduce or teach the next step ONLY after they demonstrate enough to move on. The Korean coaches all seem to use the same top-secret coaching manual haha.

On face value, I gotta agree with your friend in the club. If a player is still struggling to get correct from with a FH drive, it is not time to move on to the FH loop yet. Still, I am a little more liberal myself in the how/when department of progression. I feel that is the player shows a decent enough understanding and demonstrated proficiency of the FH drive, especially impact zone, use of whole body, correct position and movement into position, and acceleration, I would introduce the FH loop to this player earlier than I would other players. Same with BH loop for me. That is just me. many are either more liberal or way more strict to a schedule or a standard before moving on.

Myself, I could not do 100 FH to FH at fast speed to save my life, but my FH loop is a lot more dynamic and advanced in development than my FH drive, so coach in Korea kinda gave me a special exception and moved me into all the different footwork drills and combination single ball drills involving explosive movement. They are evil and want to see you suffer.

Some coaches will strike a balance and introduce some new stuff for the player to work on... while they are still trying to get the other thing right, but are well along the way.

Der_Echte · Apr 8, 2014

Keep in mind, I am just a player trying to improve like many of us on the forum. We have professional coaches all over this forum who will provide useful insight. When you gain enough knowledge/experience and see it done enough, you will form your own philosophy/judgments. Do not accept whatever I say as some absolute, I would rather follow sound principles and theory and learn how to apply it to my situation before I believe that something is THE LAW.

mahomedy13 · Apr 8, 2014

Proper technique=better consistency/results.Try to learn these techniques from a coach as it will improve your game.

TTFrenzy · Apr 9, 2014

Der_Echte said:
Keep in mind, I am just a player trying to improve like many of us on the forum. We have professional coaches all over this forum who will provide useful insight. When you gain enough knowledge/experience and see it done enough, you will form your own philosophy/judgments. Do not accept whatever I say as some absolute, I would rather follow sound principles and theory and learn how to apply it to my situation before I believe that something is THE LAW.

Very nice insight there friend. There is no same law for everyone, what suits YOU is the law. Both of your posts were very balanced and well said, some firm advice without talking too much! One last thing dont pay so much attention to someone just because he has the tag "professional" and several degrees that certify his value. What matters is how he teaches you not his degrees

A true professional is the one who always tries to improve his coachins skills and finds the suitable and "different but personal" method to develop his athlete into a unique player.

DDF2 · Apr 9, 2014

As already said by others, I don't think there is "the perfect stroke" that suits every situation. The movements you do always depends on the position of your body to the table and the ball.
However I think that for the basic strokes like FH and BH flat strokes as well as FH and BH topspin you should definetly listen to advice from coaches or experienced players. In the phase where you are still learning how to hit the ball and developing your control it's very important to have a solid foundation you can rely on.
After you have played for some years you will automatically start adjusting strokes according to situations and strategies, because by then you know what kind of ball results from what kind of body movement.

Der_Echte · Apr 9, 2014

In my own country one has to be careful about what coach you get. Many do not know what is what, some are barely 1900 or 2000 level and can tell you the truth in a heartbeat. Some are the highest level of amature or semi pro, and just string you along sucking $60+ and hour from you like a leech while the player does not significantly grow. It is a pity that some players have taken lessons from former national players for 3 or more years and still haven't cracked 1400 level of low average USA club player!.

I agree with your statement that a piece of paper saying you did this level of coaching certification or achieved this level as a player doesn't give anyone the absolute expert power to be top man in the coaching world. Heck, ask Tony. I think he just did the Level I international certification. he might have learned a few things from it, but I doubt it. He was already a coach in tis profession making a living from it. There wasn't much a roving team to rubber stamp cert everyone was going to tell him how to do his job!

I think a better measure of a coach (and also a club if using the same measure) is how well the players develop over time. That would be the best indicator for me whether the coach knows his stuff and can bring home the goods! Maybe another measure would be how well a player who has been coached by that guy handle himself, represent himself, how he can also explain to others what is going on with him, how to analyze his problems, and overcome them.

I am with you, a piece of paper doesn't mean crap unless you can back it up! I would look for other ways to see how a coach proves he can develop a player or a group of players.

Der_Echte · Apr 9, 2014

TTF, I get where you are coming from about the coaches, but I mean we really got professional coaches on this forum. FAB, Tony, Matt, & Dan are 4 coaches on this forum who come to mind right away and if anyone sees how they think and communicate over the last two years on this forum, you will get the idea they know their business and can back it up. That is why I refer to such coaches as their proven record will make anyone more easily believe their advice when it comes to coaching.

In the USA National Football League, there is a saying...

Coaches Coach.
Players Play.
Managers manage.
owners pay the bills and make the prfits

Everyone has their role. Maybe later in my TT life I will be fit enough to effectively train new and developing players like our established coaches. For now, I just offer my perspectives of what I have done and failed, or done and worked without failing.

I also feel it is very important to understand and take hold of major concepts + be able to apply them in real situations to solve problems. I think that separates the book smart from those who have some smarts and a lot of common sense and good judgement.

Der_Echte · Apr 9, 2014

gen39, to get back to your specific example of your TT friend telling you to use more waist and less arm/hand...

When you have a wide base stance, a slightly FH ready open base ready position, you use you your legs and waist to start the stroke and use them for a base and impact the ball inside your effective strike zone... you have a LOT more control and power every time. You also have a much better balance and ability to get back to ready position and continue WAY better than being off balance or using the body ineffectively.

I think he is telling you good advice. When you are doing a FH to FH, you are prolly not hitting it at max speed. One can use just the arm at 25% power and maintain that kind of shot, but not for long with control, definitely not at a higher power with less time repeating 25 times.

later, when you do that shot VERY close to table, like over the table, you will use more arm with a low wide base. You will be using mostly the lower arm pivoting with the bent elbow like a hinge pivot point and using 25% power. That shot using more arm (mostly lower arm) is good form over the table and repeatable. That shot doesn't require a lot of trunk rotation... there is no time for it that close to table, your low stance gives you balance and control so the lower arm can do the low power work vs a fast ball that is controllable.

gen39 · Apr 10, 2014

Der_Echte said:
Keep in mind, I am just a player trying to improve like many of us on the forum. We have professional coaches all over this forum who will provide useful insight. When you gain enough knowledge/experience and see it done enough, you will form your own philosophy/judgments. Do not accept whatever I say as some absolute, I would rather follow sound principles and theory and learn how to apply it to my situation before I believe that something is THE LAW.

Thanks!
Well, you know I'm just very curious between what's more effective between the two (if I proceed now or not), thank you for sharing with me your thoughts again Der_echte

gen39 · Apr 10, 2014

Der_Echte said:
gen39, to get back to your specific example of your TT friend telling you to use more waist and less arm/hand...

When you have a wide base stance, a slightly FH ready open base ready position, you use you your legs and waist to start the stroke and use them for a base and impact the ball inside your effective strike zone... you have a LOT more control and power every time. You also have a much better balance and ability to get back to ready position and continue WAY better than being off balance or using the body ineffectively.

I think he is telling you good advice. When you are doing a FH to FH, you are prolly not hitting it at max speed. One can use just the arm at 25% power and maintain that kind of shot, but not for long with control, definitely not at a higher power with less time repeating 25 times.

later, when you do that shot VERY close to table, like over the table, you will use more arm with a low wide base. You will be using mostly the lower arm pivoting with the bent elbow like a hinge pivot point and using 25% power. That shot using more arm (mostly lower arm) is good form over the table and repeatable. That shot doesn't require a lot of trunk rotation... there is no time for it that close to table, your low stance gives you balance and control so the lower arm can do the low power work vs a fast ball that is controllable.

Hmmm... So that supports the statement that you can't do (most of the time) the perfect shot during a rally right?
Like what you said practicing is just a way to improve your strokes during a game, so that you know what it is and be able to adapt in it. It helps you to bring back the ball on the table even on worse conditons...

And also Der_echte, thank you for commenting regarding what my friend tells me about how to execute the FH drive. I appreciate that so much Sir! Way To Go!

SpinQuark · Apr 11, 2014

I played golf for many years and I have been playing Table Tennis for three years now and I see many similarities. The purpose of good technique is to produce an action that generates consistently good results. No two players can ever be identical, but everyone can seek to develop good technique. A good result can be produced by a quick flick of the wrist, but the margin for error will be much smaller because the timing must be perfect to get a good result. The correct technique will offer the highest margin for error so when the timing is slightly off the bat will still meet the ball at an effective angle and speed etc.

if you hit a lot of table tennis balls or a lot of golf balls you will improve regardless of your technique. However the limit of your improvement will be dictated by the quality of your technique. To become a good player I think you must commit yourself to improving your technique as early as possible. I see many players (golf and table tennis) are happy to practice by playing a lot with bad technique but they will never reach their potential. Improving technique is hard work. You can't see your own body and so often you may feel you are doing the right thing when actually you are not. This is the big advantage of coaching, to have somebody who understands what good technique is, and has good eyes to see where a players movements need improvement, and which drills and exagerations and mental images will help produce the change and commit it to 'muscle memory'.

I always found with golf that to make any change you had to make a lot of conscious effort and feel as though you were greatly exaggerating the change in order to achieve the right change in movement. Then you had to spend many hours practicing the change to get it embedded. As you get older I think it gets harder to reprogramme the neural network in your brain, but I have been quite surprised already by the improvement that a focus on technique can bring even to a 50 year old. For me one of the great rewards of technical sports is the challenge and therefore satisfaction that comes from improving your technique. What once seemed impossible (e.g. Making a serve spin back to the net) becomes regularly achievable. Like a traveller I dread arriving at the terminus of my improvement because the journey is the best part.

Dan · Apr 13, 2014

There have been many fantastic posts here so I won't go into to much detail. But one thing that I have noticed over the years, is a lot of players who start out they try to much. They play to big, drop back from the table to much and don't focus on the simple, basic elements. It is so important to keep everything simple and get the basics right.

Some points to keep a focus on.

- contact ball at top of the bounce
- brush the ball
- try to implement weight transfer (forehand topspin for right hander - right leg weight, transferring into left leg)
- practice, practice practice

Try to practice as much as possible but practising what coaches have told you. If you can, and are serious to improve try to get a 1-1 lesson with a coach once a week. Around this time work improving the different points the coach has taught you.

And most importantly, have lots of fun!

If you can embed videos of yourself playing tt here and we can all help with some good positive feedback for you.

See you around

gen39 · Apr 14, 2014

Dan said:
There have been many fantastic posts here so I won't go into to much detail. But one thing that I have noticed over the years, is a lot of players who start out they try to much. They play to big, drop back from the table to much and don't focus on the simple, basic elements. It is so important to keep everything simple and get the basics right.

Some points to keep a focus on.

- contact ball at top of the bounce
- brush the ball
- try to implement weight transfer (forehand topspin for right hander - right leg weight, transferring into left leg)
- practice, practice practice

Try to practice as much as possible but practising what coaches have told you. If you can, and are serious to improve try to get a 1-1 lesson with a coach once a week. Around this time work improving the different points the coach has taught you.

And most importantly, have lots of fun!

If you can embed videos of yourself playing tt here and we can all help with some good positive feedback for you.

See you around

Thanks Dan!
I'll try to embed videos of our training here..

phillypong · Apr 16, 2014

I found shaun oneill and this video not bad at all.
there was also a shaun oneill clinic video on table tennis that was very interesting as basic guidelines.

Correct movements in Table Tennis

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