I'm not saying it, but I'm thinking it.

Tinykin said:

Fais, stop being a sleezy lawyer/journalist type hiding behind carefully chosen lawyer/journalist speak.
Be a man, and say clearly what you mean, that is, openly accuse the CNT of doping. That's what you are all but saying isn't it?

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I dont think he is being sleezy or hiding , he eventually pointed out what he is trying to say here but he is not 100% sure about it

p.s. to tinykin& mr richard : About the age hiding issue, it was a tactic the chinese did for olympics, do you really think they need to hide their age in a sport that they absolutely dominate for competition reasons only? I dont know if there is another reason, but especially for the modern generation of chinese players they certainly dont need to hide their age just to compete against younger players

I didn't say that he was being sleezy. He's just using the same "double-speak" tactics that sleezy journalists use to avoid being accused of anything. Personally I think it's a cowardly approach.
I'm saying that if thinks that the CNT are doping their players, say so openly and back it up with reasonable arguments. This forum is not a court. We are all just chatting our thoughts so no need for the subterfuge of language manipulation. I won't think any less of him for taking the straight approach.
Example, he could have said something like;
"What do you guys guys think of the CNT and doping? I think that that FZD has taken steroids and these are my reasons for saying so........."

Yes my point exactly, because he isnt 100% sure he didnt accuse anyone straight and with crystal clear arguements (his lack of knowledge is more than obvious). Anyway there are so many facts that counter the whole doping issue, that the whole conversation does not need any more analysis in my opinion. Besides FZD has not achieved anything godlike, something that would make us suspicious about his performance

I dunno...

If an American citizen went on an internet forum and stated that "I'm not saying it, but I'm thinking it"... "the President's wife has GOT to be doing something illegal to make those tasty chocolate cakes that are winning international awards"... or "I'm not saying it, but I'm thinking it"... "but the President has GOT to be cheating to get all those laws passed" I think that would get a prompt visit by some authorities.

Of course simply saying that based on the observations of such and such person's continued actions, it would cause a reasonable person to believe such and such because of such and such... that is saying essentially the same thing, but being a lot more direct, honest, and clear without all the questions of manipulation or liability. We get that on this forum.

FZD is a true athlete no steroids just lot of training and practice

I get your points.
Maybe I'm being upset by what I think are unsupported allegations against FZD.
The fact is once these things are said or hinted at, the mud sticks. That's what I call sleezy journalism. If said often enough with no proof, there will always be the suspicions about him.

Der_Echte said:

I dunno...

If an American citizen went on an internet forum and stated that "I'm not saying it, but I'm thinking it"... "the President's wife has GOT to be doing something illegal to make those tasty chocolate cakes that are winning international awards"... or "I'm not saying it, but I'm thinking it"... "but the President has GOT to be cheating to get all those laws passed" I think that would get a prompt visit by some authorities.

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And no matter what happens, many will believe it which was probably the intent of the person making the statement, hypothetically of course.

fais said:

I agree with everything you've said, but now I question about the case re. Dima (no, I'm not accusing dima either). The use of steroids/perf enahnce. drugs (and getting away with it) in all the major sports across the US and ESPECIALLY in the olympics is sooo widespread, IMHO to think no one in TT is doping sounds improbable and there fore not as unlikely and irrational as everyone is making it out to be... Also, many, many, many professional athletes have doped and beaten the system. Lance Armstrong for one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Lance_Armstrong_doping_allegations) comes to mind. To the person who laughed at my idea of steroids in TT... well guess what, someone is probably using it or they wouldn't be testing, would they?Many people openly accuse the chinese team of boosting their rubbers, why is what I propose so far fetched? When I said i'm not saying it, but rather thinking it, I was deliberately NOT accusing FZD of doping, because I'm not convinced that he is (I'm just not convinced it is impossible for FZD or any uncannily gifted player to never have doped, nor should anyone else here be convinced). Just watching him play (and staring at that massive jawline of his stired the idea in my head of doping in the world of TT. Competing at such a high stage with so much riding on the line is the exact reason for these athletes dope. Avoiding controversy or destroying an organization/athlete's image is the exact reason for said organization to cover it. Everyone knew March McGuire was doping, but it didn't stop him from entering the Hall of Fame. If Germany's poster boy Dima did juice, don't you think Germany (or even ITTF for that matter) would want their images sullied or would a quick slap on the hand and behind the curtain fix be the way to go. "Oh yeah, he wasn't roiding... its just some chinese rice he ate.. not the rice the rest of the chinese players eat tho!", I agree, that is completely rational .

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http://tabletennista.com/up/posts/Img395056857.365x265.jpg how big is that jaw... ive seen many ppl bigger. i didn't think it was that big. I think it was a subjective matter. even if you come up with objective measure, and say it's big. I don't think it's a problem loll..I agree as well, that things are not impossible. I'm not saying it's impossible as well. just very improbably. if you agreed with what I've said. then many A team, B team members all are using juice. lol given the fact that they will invest in 10 players and 1 player will come out succeeding (unless for the case: they saw great potential in fzd and decided to have him doping. which doesn't make sense at all, since winning did not previously need roid, and why ruined fzd's natural potential before even seeing him what he would get.I think the key to me and many of us, is just that roid is just not the main factor of a win. to me, TT is more about physical endurance during practice, and less so in the match (many non-tt players don't see that and think that the sports lack phtsicality.)

TTFrenzy said:

p.s. to tinykin& mr richard : About the age hiding issue, it was a tactic the chinese did for olympics, do you really think they need to hide their age in a sport that they absolutely dominate for competition reasons only? I dont know if there is another reason, but especially for the modern generation of chinese players they certainly dont need to hide their age just to compete against younger players

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Um sure they do if they want to win Junior Championships and such. We have 20 something Chinese players playing in our under 18 events at our U.S. Open. I'm sure it's not just here. In China there are several coaches who explicitly tell new talented kids' parents to go get their documents changed at a local authority. It's commonplace so people are used to it. Liu Shiwen once made a mistake in an interview during her junior career where she all but basically pointed out that she was older than 18. The Chinese have already had age issues where they had Gymnasts that were younger than 16 competing in a 16 & over competition.

As far as why it's done think of it like this, players are all competing to get to the top spots on their teams so they can be selected for CNT training which will give them a shot at celebrity status. The easiest and best way for them to be noticed is to win the junior events on a pro tour or in China and having the advantage of being a couple years older or more means more power and more experience.

I'm not saying every CNT player is doing this, but in FZD case it's all but apparent. Legs like that don't develop at 14-16 years of age in asians. It's just not possible. My father had large legs when he was 16 and so did I, but we were also 6 feet which is tall for Koreans. Add to all this and FZD is maybe 5' 5" and his legs were larger than mine? That would mean that when he was 12 his legs were the equivalent of my size when I was 16 and that doesn't make sense at all.

@Rich
Doesnt mean most koreans grow slow then every korean will grow slowly.thats just a generalised statement.

Mr. RicharD said:

but in FZD case it's all but apparent. Legs like that don't develop at 14-16 years of age in asians. It's just not possible. My father had large legs when he was 16 and so did I, but we were also 6 feet which is tall for Koreans. Add to all this and FZD is maybe 5' 5" and his legs were larger than mine? That would mean that when he was 12 his legs were the equivalent of my size when I was 16 and that doesn't make sense at all.

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Where is your solid proof ? Scientific basis of comparison, genetical built perhaps other race vs asians regarding physical training.. ?

-Rajah M.D.



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fzd is a multi-talent one day he'll win every major title

Na fais, you gave us some great stuff to talk about and make strong positions. Almost everyone likes that whether they realize it or not.

fais said:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/2010-10-15-3380462764_x.htm

Dima got off his suspension on the grounds of plausible deniability...REALLY? REALLY????

"Contador blamed the finding on "food contamination," saying he ate beef brought from Spain to France on a rest day."

Well OF COURSE! If only he had seen the label on the back of the packet right next to the nutritional info that read "WARNING: do not take if pregnant or if you plan to compete in regulation Table Tennis matches and/or other organized sport that tests for use of illegal substances"

I apologize Richard, for making it sound like im slinging mud at FZD, I should not have singled him out. If I am permitted, I would like to change my supposed allegations to the following:

"I feel it is highly, HIGHLY probable that all of the ITTF top ranking TT players (at the very least, top 5) are indeed doping and getting away with it.... Dima made the mistake of getting caught". But rest assured, where there is money involved, image to maintain, merchandise to market, fans to draw and tickets to sell... there will always be a way to sweep my mud slinging under the rug.

Here is a history of ALL the sports at the olympics where athletes have been CAUGHT using illegal substances:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Olympic_Games

I mean, holy ****, equestrian is on the list! And Archery! But not our beloved TT, these guys, the best in the world, are completely natural. Even Dima. I mean, if Dima was doping, he would surely be #1, because no one else is! unless...

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I get your point but why an athlete of table tennis starts using clenbuterol which is mostly used by bodybuilders in order to burn fat fast and maintain muscle mass. It is most likely that he ate contaminated meat because clenbuterol is also used in animals for the same reasons (retain muscle mass and less fat in the product)

Liu guoliang was also found guilty of epitestosterone (1999 after his wttc win) and after two random tests made, he was found again with high levels of epitestosterone above the limit. After some lab analysis it was found that this "Drug" was naturally produced by his body and that there was noway that he used epitestosterone from an external source (pill/injection). Same case for theodoros zagorakis the team captain of greece in 2004, his body naturally produced more testosterone than permitted and he was also found not guilty after tests

lol, this thread is getting more and more funnier.

FAIS conspiracy -you should say - after speed glue ban, CNT and World top players started to drink speed glue/voc into the body to maintain the same speed


Let me add some logic and truth back into this thread, just not sure where to start....

Okay the banned substance - it is actually very easy to have intake of banned substance unknowling. You must remember Dima is a normal human being, he would hang out with friends, eat at other people's home, eat out at normal resturants. The only way to know is if he/his team/country does random test on them to make sure they are "safe". Yes, they are taught about these banned substances and what to watch out for - ie certain pain killers or medication, they have special diet program, but they do not consume all food/liquid within a "secure" environment, so any form of contamination is possible.

I guess I will just continue to laugh about it.

Richard raised the age issue - something that I raised 1 week ago in this thread. That will have more discussion weight over Fais conspiracy.

Guys, China is a huge country - not just land mass, but population. Its bigger than Europe - and how many countries are in Europe?

There are lots of places which are "rural" and "back then" did not have a good internal system.
It was easy for someone to register 1 to 2 years after the child was born - hence a more "innocent" example. And yes it is true that you can bribe (back then) local municipal officers to tweak birth certificates - normally this happens when the kid is at a decent level already and it is due to massive internal (Chinese) commpetition, to get more advantage over other "juniors" to get into Provicial A Teams as well as CNT B team. So when some are doing it, then others follow - so advantage disappeared and a huge problem emerged - not just in table tennis, but in many other sports too.

This age thing got nothing to do with World Junior Titles - China is good enough to take it, but should I rather say - they don't focus about such world ranking compared to seniors title - they rather have players training more than competiting full time on the world junior circuit.

Now China has improved and still improving. However lots of Rural places still have "human" systems in place. There are more anti corruption protocols in place and faking of age is becoming more and more difficult.

Regarding FZD being his true age - I doubt, maybe at most 1 to 2 years difference imo. Now 16 years old or 18 years old - Fais will still claim there is steriods, because he must be bored or something.

I have a video of Xu Xin winning the U17 in China few years ago. In that video his birth date and year is different to his current date and year....so yeah, its sad but it is true. Is it a big thing in TT world stage? No, but it is unfair within China - among other ugly things like political connections, favoritsm, money etc. But no matter how ugly it is, there is tons of hardship and training to achieve CNT level - those "special" arrangements can only do so much, the rest requires on actual performance.
Does CNT TT require to take drugs to beat the other countries? lol..... Its like saying Team USA (Basketball) requires to take steriods when playing Fiba tournaments.

I think I have covered all the required facts to suggest that this thread can be closed - otherwise soon Fais will suggest FZD is from Mars

I could import the best drug addict 18yr old body builder with big arms and big thigh/legs big jaw frankenstein to play and yet it wont make a big diffrence- why? Coz there is a huge mothafukin DIFFRENCE regarding training..
Bloody hell!

Think outside the box

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Ma Long at age 14/15 vs 18 year old dude
http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/f...player-from-The-Slovak-Republic(2003-3-video)

If Ma Long is on steriods and 3 years older than his age, then that dude is from Mars and 25 years old