No Butterfly Shipping abroad?

Bishop Rasta 27 · Sep 4, 2014

hello TTD

i'm just wondering why some online stores i looked into was prohibited or don't want to ship Butterfly products outside their country...this was specially some TT stores in Japan and some part of Asia...

was this a mandate by the company?

agold · Sep 4, 2014

Bishop Rasta 27 said:
hello TTD

i'm just wondering why some online stores i looked into was prohibited or don't want to ship Butterfly products outside their country...this was specially some TT stores in Japan and some part of Asia...

was this a mandate by the company?

Yes it was. Unfortunately for all of us, butterfly decided that we shouldn't be getting rubbers for so cheap

Bishop Rasta 27 · Sep 4, 2014

now I know...thanks agold for the info...then i'd be getting from other stores with the Butterfly Suggested Price (megaspin,paddlepalace,UK stores and some in thailand and malaysia almost have the same SRP for Butterfly products). the only difference is the shipping price...have to look for a fairly lower shipping fee...

mahomedy13 · Sep 4, 2014

there is a south african shop on bid or buy(bidorbuy.co.za) that sells tenergy for $50 and bryce speed for $45.
Only problem is that i dont think they ship internationally.you can check up though.

joskelly · Sep 4, 2014

This is completely consumer driven based on what different markets will sustain for certain products and brands. Having been a director of a large Japanese corporation (not TT related) I can tell you it is very common practice in all sectors. Consumers in different countries will pay more for different products often influenced by the perception of a brand. In the UK (and many other countries - including the Philippines by the sound of it!) Butterfly has been able to position itself as a premium brand and set the pricing accordingly. They then charge their distributors in those countries more than the Japanese market and 'blame' the difference on transport costs, tax differences and anything else they can think of. If UK consumers then see a supplier like tt-japan.net selling for a lot less than is available locally, pretty quickly word spreads and the local suppliers see their orders decline and so they quite rightly complain to Tamasu-Butterfly. Instead of giving that local supplier pricing equitable with that of the Japanese market, Tamasu-Butterfly, to protect their profit margins, lean on the Japanese vendor and force them to stop shipping overseas. This way they can still have their big fat marketing budget to keep brand perception very high - e.g. paying top players to use Butterfly. This doesn't mean it's not possible to get good deals, only that you have to look harder. Be aware too that just because it says on a website that they won't ship overseas doesn't always mean that if you placed an order it wouldn't 'slip through the net' and get to you!! You'll only know if you try. There are far east sites that still ship overseas but they're often a minefield of fakes and just not worth the risk IMO. If people bought less from Butterfly because they're so expensive you can guarantee their pricing would drop like a brick. However profit focussed big corporations are, they're not stupid and they would always prefer to have a 10% profit margin on high volumes of sales than 75% margin on zero sales. Butterfly are a very efficient marketing machine though and I know lots of kids who are convinced that if only their parents would buy them a JK ZLC with Tenergy 80 Max along with the latest Nike trainers etc they'd win every tournament!

One big factor to bear in mind in all of this is that if you do buy cheap from overseas you damage the TT community in your own country. Most tournaments are supported by local suppliers and without this support there would be an awful lot less for players to be involved with. My advice? Avoid manufacturers that have got too greedy and choose products from manufacturers who aren't trying to take advantage of the consumer so that your money stays within your country's TT environment to the benefit of everyone.

Baal · Sep 4, 2014

joskelly said:
This is completely consumer driven based on what different markets will sustain for certain products and brands. Having been a director of a large Japanese corporation (not TT related) I can tell you it is very common practice in all sectors. Consumers in different countries will pay more for different products often influenced by the perception of a brand. In the UK (and many other countries - including the Philippines by the sound of it!) Butterfly has been able to position itself as a premium brand and set the pricing accordingly. They then charge their distributors in those countries more than the Japanese market and 'blame' the difference on transport costs, tax differences and anything else they can think of. If UK consumers then see a supplier like tt-japan.net selling for a lot less than is available locally, pretty quickly word spreads and the local suppliers see their orders decline and so they quite rightly complain to Tamasu-Butterfly. Instead of giving that local supplier pricing equitable with that of the Japanese market, Tamasu-Butterfly, to protect their profit margins, lean on the Japanese vendor and force them to stop shipping overseas. This way they can still have their big fat marketing budget to keep brand perception very high - e.g. paying top players to use Butterfly. This doesn't mean it's not possible to get good deals, only that you have to look harder. Be aware too that just because it says on a website that they won't ship overseas doesn't always mean that if you placed an order it wouldn't 'slip through the net' and get to you!! You'll only know if you try. There are far east sites that still ship overseas but they're often a minefield of fakes and just not worth the risk IMO. If people bought less from Butterfly because they're so expensive you can guarantee their pricing would drop like a brick. However profit focussed big corporations are, they're not stupid and they would always prefer to have a 10% profit margin on high volumes of sales than 75% margin on zero sales. Butterfly are a very efficient marketing machine though and I know lots of kids who are convinced that if only their parents would buy them a JK ZLC with Tenergy 80 Max along with the latest Nike trainers etc they'd win every tournament!

One big factor to bear in mind in all of this is that if you do buy cheap from overseas you damage the TT community in your own country. Most tournaments are supported by local suppliers and without this support there would be an awful lot less for players to be involved with. My advice? Avoid manufacturers that have got too greedy and choose products from manufacturers who aren't trying to take advantage of the consumer so that your money stays within your country's TT environment to the benefit of everyone.

Great post. In fact a market adjustment occurred when ESN finally started producing rubbers that could compete with Tenergy, and this caused Btfly to drop prices for that product quite a bit a couple of years ago. Since then they have been creeping back up. Blades are another matter. It is hard to imagine the price for super ZLC can be sustained for too long, but people still seem willing to buy it, which amazes me since there's nothing particularly special about those blades.

Der_Echte · Sep 4, 2014

Buying the same thing cheaper somewhere else is what finance people call arbitrage. It is taking advantage of a lower price on another market and buying there. Eventually, the markets move towards the market equilibrium price.

In another extreme example (since we all like extremes) A company's stock price might be artificially high for some reasons, so the arbitrage people (arbitrageurs) do everything they can to drive down the price to actual market value. These guys might get down and dirty and keep selling it short (selling stock they don't own, but must later buy the stock and give it to the broker) (they do that hopefully after the price drops lower and pocket some nice profit) and find a way to leak true (and untrue) data to get the market to realize the stock isn't worth as much. Sounds like dirty business and it often is, but the spirit of getting an artificial price down to true value equilibrium price is simply at the end of the day market forces making the price the true price the market should offer.

In the individual markets where individuals do not seek arbitrage opportunities, there can be many different true market prices.

If there was TRUE free trade and arbitrage, then if the US market price of $79 USD a sheet for T05 is too high, then someone could buy T05 somewhere ele in bulk for $50 a sheet and sell it in US for $60 a sheet and both consumer and arbitrageur are better off.

However, BTY is NOT interested in free trade and true market force equilibrium, only individual country market.

BTY wants to protect its distributors and ensure they are healthy (and fat cat). In real business markets free trade, there ought to be equal opportunity to trade and exchange. However, in real life, there are entry costs and risks to establishing a competing enterprise. There are also enterprises whop are protected by government. (regulation and subsidies) There are also the risk of competing with established and entrenced business who already have won over the consumer. (or pissed them off)

We all judge for ourselves whether the arbitrageur is evil or the corporation is. (one, neither or both)

Der_Echte · Sep 4, 2014

Buying low from some far off place and selling high at home and elsewhere there is a market has been a foundation for business from the very start when transportation became available.

Corporations are the ultimate arbitrageurs, so in that view, both individual arbitrageurs and corporations are essentially arbitrageurs.

I guess the differences would be the size of enterprise, its ethics or willingness to get dirty, and government regulation / favoritism. I think the deck is stacked WAY in favor of the larger enterprises and human nature has forever found ways to achieve and maintain this kind of dominance, whether it is business, politics, religion, private organizations, social organizations, or general life itself.

Der_Echte · Sep 4, 2014

Another foundation of business is the ART of convincing or enticing someone to buy something they do not actually need and create a whole host of "wants" that did not exist before. Marketing has been around forever and will be so. Many companies call this "innovating" and often, it is just "churning" sales.

Did we REALLY need Office 2007 when (nearly free or darn inexpensive) Office 97 and Office 2000/2003 were perfectly serviceable for well over 90% of users who actually had a need for word processor / spreadsheet / database presentation solution in light of perfectly serviceable versions having been available FREE for years?

Did we as home consumers REALLY need something like that?

That is one example of business making us desire things we really didn't need and were getting by in life just great before.

I am not beating down innovation, since a lot of innovation has helped save live, made life easier, or helped us enjoy life.

I am just saying a LOT of innovation is total hot flaming garbage, but not all of it.

Tony's Table Tennis · Sep 4, 2014

mahomedy13 said:
there is a south african shop on bid or buy(bidorbuy.co.za) that sells tenergy for $50 and bryce speed for $45.
Only problem is that i dont think they ship internationally.you can check up though.

Bid or buy is the South African E-bay.....
So - use at own risk

Tony's Table Tennis · Sep 4, 2014

Bishop Rasta 27 said:
hello TTD

i'm just wondering why some online stores i looked into was prohibited or don't want to ship Butterfly products outside their country...this was specially some TT stores in Japan and some part of Asia...

was this a mandate by the company?

This is by mandate of Butterfly

Infact all brands have strict terriorital rights of distribution. But most of them don't police it as strictly as Butterfly.
From a business sense, Butterfly is doing the right thing. But I will only agree if all countries has full on Butterfly sellers, so consumers has options to buy locally.
You need to support your local market, but nowadays, the internet world, with international purchases, it will damage local stores.

So Butterfly is protecting the local stores.

You may ask why? well, the local stores likely have invested money in say sponsoring top local players etc. And your Japanese or any other overseas shop is not helping paying for the sponsorship of the local player.
I always tell this to people, its great to treat your own pocket by buying overseas, but what you are also doing is helping the other countries numbers, helping them getting more marketing budget/sponsorship/donations, helping them with TAX/VAT for they own people. So one day when your local market is poor, you can only blame yourself, as you require money to generate money within. You give money out, then that money is for someone else to use.

In terms of Butterfly's current problem in say NA, the distributors don't carry all the stock or are interested in ordering in on request and then the customers are not allowed to buy else where -forcing customers to go for other brands or force to use some other Butterfly product that they didn't want. IMO, people are just too obsesed with one brand.

Tony's Table Tennis · Sep 4, 2014

joskelly said:
This is completely consumer driven based on what different markets will sustain for certain products and brands. Having been a director of a large Japanese corporation (not TT related) I can tell you it is very common practice in all sectors. Consumers in different countries will pay more for different products often influenced by the perception of a brand. In the UK (and many other countries - including the Philippines by the sound of it!) Butterfly has been able to position itself as a premium brand and set the pricing accordingly. They then charge their distributors in those countries more than the Japanese market and 'blame' the difference on transport costs, tax differences and anything else they can think of. If UK consumers then see a supplier like tt-japan.net selling for a lot less than is available locally, pretty quickly word spreads and the local suppliers see their orders decline and so they quite rightly complain to Tamasu-Butterfly. Instead of giving that local supplier pricing equitable with that of the Japanese market, Tamasu-Butterfly, to protect their profit margins, lean on the Japanese vendor and force them to stop shipping overseas. This way they can still have their big fat marketing budget to keep brand perception very high - e.g. paying top players to use Butterfly. This doesn't mean it's not possible to get good deals, only that you have to look harder. Be aware too that just because it says on a website that they won't ship overseas doesn't always mean that if you placed an order it wouldn't 'slip through the net' and get to you!! You'll only know if you try. There are far east sites that still ship overseas but they're often a minefield of fakes and just not worth the risk IMO. If people bought less from Butterfly because they're so expensive you can guarantee their pricing would drop like a brick. However profit focussed big corporations are, they're not stupid and they would always prefer to have a 10% profit margin on high volumes of sales than 75% margin on zero sales. Butterfly are a very efficient marketing machine though and I know lots of kids who are convinced that if only their parents would buy them a JK ZLC with Tenergy 80 Max along with the latest Nike trainers etc they'd win every tournament!

One big factor to bear in mind in all of this is that if you do buy cheap from overseas you damage the TT community in your own country. Most tournaments are supported by local suppliers and without this support there would be an awful lot less for players to be involved with. My advice? Avoid manufacturers that have got too greedy and choose products from manufacturers who aren't trying to take advantage of the consumer so that your money stays within your country's TT environment to the benefit of everyone.

Spot on

Butterfly NA and Europe is using the same cost price
However Butterfly Japan and most Asian market has a better cost price

If Butterfly plays fair, then it will be better off.

Obviously some market are Tax free, or have lower operation cost, lower freight cost (in and out), but in Butterfly's case, the problem start from them already.

And i'm sure Butterfly makes more profit than the distributors.

ZED · Sep 5, 2014

I'm interested but the conversation is getting complicated; can someone summarize?

Thanks!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tony's Table Tennis · Sep 5, 2014

ZED said:
I'm interested but the conversation is getting complicated; can someone summarize?

Thanks!

Sent from my iPone using Tapatalk

Butterfly limit distribution rights to certain areas. Butterfly's policies (same as many other brands and other business industries)

agold · Sep 5, 2014

@der_echte sounds like we just all need to strike

maybe they will lower prices.

Tony's Table Tennis · Sep 5, 2014

agold said:
@der_echte sounds like we just all need to strike maybe they will lower prices.

One doesn't need to strike, but one should agree to not supporting "price increase" - because they can get away with it, or "poor service from distrubtors" - because they can get away with it. I also hear emailing complaints to Butterfly comes to no avail. However they are a great bunch of people (Butterfly staff) though. So maybe it is certain business policies..

From a coach and a player prespective (not a shop), this is the common complain across the world:
- Too expense (30% to 100% over other top brands)

- Strict supply chain - some models are made for specific countries. So because one does not live in that area - one has no ways of purchasing it, except for getting on the airplane and because in the country, or asking a friend to buy and post for you.

- Link to above, distributors does the import. What they don't import, then it will not be available. Some distributors doesn't even "orde on request" - even if the customer is willing to wait months for it. So this is Butterfly don't allow you to buy + Distributors not willing to order in for you to buy.... what can you do?

IMO, they can get away with it, as Butterfly does "own" the market, and people are willing to play slave to what ever happens.
I've heard this for years already and I assume it will be the same in many more.
Great that other brands has good quality equipment, so there are always alternatives.

Rajah* · Sep 5, 2014

If more brands could dominate on the quality aspect vs price against bty. then and only then..you know whats next. 24 years of my table tennis career bty was at the top of the game.. we cannot deny the fact that years and years of research placed them on that spot and having very good quality equipments.

Sent from my HTC One M8 using Tapatalk

Der_Echte · Sep 5, 2014

agold said:
@der_echte sounds like we just all need to strike maybe they will lower prices.

Little trouble maker you !!! Haha. Instigator in the making. LIKE.

I lead by action and example. It is a public record for me saying that T05 is an awesome rubber, prolly the best, but NO WAY I will pay what BTY WANTS the market price to be... NO WAY. It is also public record that after trying out a number of rubbers, I settled in on Aurus and later sometimes Evolution series and I get by just fine without T05. AND I use a $7 USD rubber on BH.

While we are on that, heck, I get by alright without my expensive Nexy or BTY blades after they suffer mortal wounds from battle and get buried with full honors. Ask Carl who saw me in action with the 896 I modified by adding 15 grams of nails to the handle. Ask Carl how I hit with the Instinkt+ with Aurus/XP 2008 I left with him.

It looks like I am about to get another expensive Nexy blade about to hit the market and I think I will like it a LOT, but that will not stop me from functioning without the big guns, Carl will tell you those guns are located in the muscles that power my right wrist.

So, the way I strike (or strike back) is to use something else I like and screw BTY way too high pricing. That is how you lead by example. I do not need to open up the arms room and go ballistic, BTY is not threatening my family, friends, livelihood, or way of life. Company will lower price when sales go down too low.

When enough people do that, the company will listen, or lose, and later die off. That is how consumers fight a company pricing in a market economy. However, collectively, even in this era of being able to learn almost ANYTHING quickly over the internet AND the best communications systems ever around, I observe that collectively, on the whole, are tamer than sheep themselves once led in one direction easy picking for wise and shrewd marketers.

Since the price of T05 has remained successfully so high for so long, it seems the world is NOT lacking in very high numbers of sheep or the product is so good, player simply MUST have it at almost ANY price. That is the market equilibrium, even if it is propped up by shady support.

Der_Echte · Sep 5, 2014

Baal said:
Great post. In fact a market adjustment occurred when ESN finally started producing rubbers that could compete with Tenergy, and this caused Btfly to drop prices for that product quite a bit a couple of years ago. Since then they have been creeping back up. Blades are another matter. It is hard to imagine the price for super ZLC can be sustained for too long, but people still seem willing to buy it, which amazes me since there's nothing particularly special about those blades.

Baal, at first glance, that could be downright puzzling. However, since we know that blade doesn't play the game for you or do dishes or everything that gives value for the price. You say correctly so many people willing to buy it.

The only reasonable explanation is BTY found or created a niche market where people are willing to pay ridiculous extra for a premium product that while might have good function, is mainly bought for prestige of owning what the big guns use (supposedly).

I should not say puzzling, I should use the same word you use in AMAZING and also surprising (for how long BTY has successfully used the Jedi Mind Trick).

mahomedy13 · Sep 5, 2014

i dont understand why Yasaka doesnt advertise more and sponsor more players.they produce quality at a very reasonable price,yet they lack advertising skills and an updated website

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