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  1. jkc is offline
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    #1

    Poly Ball Bounce Heights

    Got bored yesterday so being the interesting person that I am, I bounced a few TT balls on the table and videoed it so you can form your own opinions about the relative bounce heights of Joola and Stag poly balls compared to a Butterfly celluloid ball. It shows that currently there is a great difference between the brands.





    Pick your balls carefully!!!


    (sorry about the quality - 11 year old in charge of the iPod)

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    Last edited by jkc; 10-29-2014 at 11:44 PM.

  2. Tinykin is offline
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    #2
    It shows how bad the ITTF is at establishing equipment standards.
    Three legal balls, yet three very different characteristics.
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    #3
    The Stag ball is the hardest and fastest thing I have ever hit with my bat!!!! The game will be completely different depending on which ball you use with a whole new type of 'home advantage' to make use of.

  4. TableTennisNerd is offline
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    #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykin
    It shows how bad the ITTF is at establishing equipment standards.
    Three legal balls, yet three very different characteristics.
    Yup, but also isn't the difference just because the stag one is seamless, the joola one has a seam and the butterfly one is celluloid?

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    #5
    Quote Originally Posted by TableTennisNerd
    Yup, but also isn't the difference just because the stag one is seamless, the joola one has a seam and the butterfly one is celluloid?
    From reports from other posters, If you throw the Nittaku Japanese seamed version into the mix, then we'd have four different characteristics. So it is not just seamed Vs seamless vs celluloid. It is also about engineering excellence and quality control.
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  6. Baal is offline
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    #6
    All that you have written is true, TK and TTN. I have quite literally tried them all. IMHO, Nittaku Premium Japan 40+ is best followed by XSF. Then all the Chinese seamed balls including Nittaku SHA are pretty much the same. To me, I would say three quite different plastic ball types, plus celluloid, making four.
    Last edited by Baal; 10-30-2014 at 07:21 PM.

  7. TableTennisNerd is offline
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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykin
    From reports from other posters, If you throw the Nittaku Japanese seamed version into the mix, then we'd have four different characteristics. So it is not just seamed Vs seamless vs celluloid. It is also about engineering excellence and quality control.
    Are you calling the Nittaku one good quality or bad quality?

    I have never used a poly ball and am nervous about them. Do they feel basically the same and how easy are they to adapt to?

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    #8
    I haven't played mch with them except for a pack of Joola that I have. I will basically stay away from them until the end of this season in March/April 2015.
    Baal has become the font of knowledge on the plastic balls. He is a very good player plus is a scientist by profession. so he talks sense.
    Last edited by Tinykin; 10-30-2014 at 08:02 PM.
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    #9
    All this makes me nervous about the change. Perhaps I should buy 300 celluloid balls before they become unavailable (when will this be ?).

    I would also worry that the 'datum' of the celluloid ball will be lost as we go forward and then there will be no clear way to determine what the norm or target characteristics should be for plastic balls.

    Why are the full characteristics of the table tennis ball not measured and defined using strict laboratory testing so as to establish some clear performance tramlines which balls must meet under some 'standard' conditions. Coefficient of elasticity vs force at set ambient conditions; spin rate when subjected to shear impulse using a given rubber; bounce height and kick and trajectory when hitting a set table surface with given velocity and spin; etc etc

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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by SpinQuark
    All this makes me nervous about the change. Perhaps I should buy 300 celluloid balls before they become unavailable (when will this be ?).

    I would also worry that the 'datum' of the celluloid ball will be lost as we go forward and then there will be no clear way to determine what the norm or target characteristics should be for plastic balls.

    Why are the full characteristics of the table tennis ball not measured and defined using strict laboratory testing so as to establish some clear performance tramlines which balls must meet under some 'standard' conditions. Coefficient of elasticity vs force at set ambient conditions; spin rate when subjected to shear impulse using a given rubber; bounce height and kick and trajectory when hitting a set table surface with given velocity and spin; etc etc
    Follow...........the...........money.......>
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    #11
    Pointless worrying about the changeover, it's going to happen anyway unless the ITTF have a major change of heart. A better idea to have a blast with some poly balls on practise days/nights, although waiting for the Nittaku Premiums to become available doesn't sound like a bad idea.

    A question for you all - how did the changeover from 38mm to 40mm balls go ? I personally missed it because I wasn't playing at the time, although I do wonder if it was one of the reasons I took so long to get (some of !) my touch back when I did start playing again. Was it as traumatic for some as this change seems to be building up to ?
    Second/spare blade: Butterfly Timo Boll ALC with Joola Rhyzer 48 2.0 FH and Joola Express 2.0 BH

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    #12
    I've switched over to Poly balls about 2 months ago and never looked back. I play and practice with it everyday and right now I no longer feel any difference. At first yes there were slight differences in the bounce and spin but after about a week I got used to it. You're body learns and adjust quite fast.

    On the other hand I did started with the Joola Super P 40+ and then when I switched over the Nittaku 3 Stars Premium 40+, there was a big difference in quality of the bounce. So yeah if you're going to use Poly balls, get a good one. Don't buy Joola Super P 40 + lol...it's terrible.

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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by jkc
    The Stag ball is the hardest and fastest thing I have ever hit with my bat!!!! The game will be completely different depending on which ball you use with a whole new type of 'home advantage' to make use of.
    Hi jkc,
    Where did u find stag poly balls?
    Do u know if they are available in any online stores?

    ...Rajd...

  14. Baal is offline
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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by TableTennisNerd
    Are you calling the Nittaku one good quality or bad quality?

    I have never used a poly ball and am nervous about them. Do they feel basically the same and how easy are they to adapt to?
    There are two Nittaku plastic balls. One, called Nittaku SHA40+ is made in China, I think by DHS. It is a typical Chinese seamed ball, fragile, heavy, low bounce. I don't like them at all. A different ball is the Nittaku Premium Japan 40+ ball, which is currently made at a different factory, in Japan. It is a much better ball. It looks different, is made of an obviously different material, has a quite normal bounce, and weighs on average about 2.68 grams (so it is light). That Japanese ball is by far the best plastic ball, everybody who has tried it agrees, and says so almost immediately after trying it. I received a few in mid October from Iruiru in Japan. However, for some reason they have had some difficulties in production (or something???). I should have ordered more then!! All I know is they are back-ordered everywhere right now. USATT plans to use them at US Open, and a few balls will be sold to people playing in the tournament. But other than that it is not clear when they will again be generally available. Once they do come again, buy a bunch, it is the closest thing on earth to celluloid (I actually like them better).

    It takes awhile to adapt, a good month I would say. I think it is easier to start with seamless balls and then transition to seamed if you want to. Timing and trajectory are a bit different, you have to retrain your instincts so you don't mistime.

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    Last edited by Baal; 10-31-2014 at 03:18 AM.

  15. JHB is offline
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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by rajd1234
    Hi jkc,
    Where did u find stag poly balls?
    Do u know if they are available in any online stores?
    In the UK they are currently being sold online by Tees Sport. It does seem a bit strange if you can't find them in India, when Stag is supposed to be an Indian brand !
    Second/spare blade: Butterfly Timo Boll ALC with Joola Rhyzer 48 2.0 FH and Joola Express 2.0 BH

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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by JHB
    In the UK they are currently being sold online by Tees Sport. It does seem a bit strange if you can't find them in India, when Stag is supposed to be an Indian brand !
    I know...right ...neways if some could find any online store in india selling it...pls let me know.

    ...Rajd...

  17. jkc is offline
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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by rajd1234
    Hi jkc,
    Where did u find stag poly balls?
    Do u know if they are available in any online stores?

    ...Rajd...
    I the UK they are available from our country's Butterfly supplier, in your country, you would need to try some of the suppliers to see who had Stag stuff.

  18. Tinykin is offline
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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by JHB
    Pointless worrying about the changeover, it's going to happen anyway unless the ITTF have a major change of heart. A better idea to have a blast with some poly balls on practise days/nights, although waiting for the Nittaku Premiums to become available doesn't sound like a bad idea.
    A question for you all - how did the changeover from 38mm to 40mm balls go ? I personally missed it because I wasn't playing at the time, although I do wonder if it was one of the reasons I took so long to get (some of !) my touch back when I did start playing again. Was it as traumatic for some as this change seems to be building up to ?
    Like everything, we adjust. If you agreed to play a hardbat tournament you adjust and don't think about the differences.
    But there are certain ingrained ways of playing that you never quite can change. To this day, I miss most slow balls on my FH as I have not adjusted to the rate of which the 40mm ball drops in comparison to the 38mm ball. Defenders are almost extinct because of this. They can handle side to side but drop the ball short on them and they are in trouble when using the 40mm ball.
    On the topic of Celluloid Vs Poly, have a look at these 2 matches involving Chris Doran, and say what you think.

    Medway GP, 07Sep14:



    South Shields GP, 05Oct14:

    Last edited by Tinykin; 11-02-2014 at 07:16 AM.
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  19. JamDoughnuts is offline
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    #19
    What ever you do don't buy stiga's 40+ 3 stars balls, they crack like eggs.

  20. Baal is offline
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    #20
    This is an old thread coming back to life. Surprisingly, not much has changed.

    All Chinese seamed polyballs continue to bounce consistently lower than celluloid. More than anything, this is the reason most people dislike playing with them. They are bad. (On the box it will say Made in China, for example this includes Stiga polyballs). The earlier versions were also far from round and broke all the time. There have been some recent changes that have fixed some of those problems, the last DHS balls I got were much more round, but not the bounce height. Still a problem.

    Seamless balls (XSF for example) bounce a little higher than celluloid (at least this was true for seamless balls made in spring of 2015, but I have heard that they have made some changes in the most recent production lots). Stag balls come from the same factory, there is only one in the world that makes seamless balls. Differences between different brands of seamless balls are very minor if they exist at all.

    Nittaku Premium 40+ and Butterfly G40+ are pretty similar to celluloid in terms of bounce height. These are best plastic balls. Of course, they are 40+, so they are not exactly like celluloid. They are different from each other, also. G40+ is smoother, faster, and flies straighter, but tends to slide on the table more and wears badly. Nittaku Premium 40+ is no longer difficult to find, they have solved their earlier production issues.

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    Last edited by Baal; 02-28-2016 at 03:16 PM.

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