November 2014 World Rankings

Sali · Nov 7, 2014

Tony's Table Tennis said:
I think ITTF Changing the rule to 4 month inactive on world scene = no WR is so silly.
Check so many still "active" players that has no world ranking in November.

This is the reason why so many players improve, and guess what, when all these inactive become active, then the improved players will drop again.
I wonder if this is good or not, or even an accurate reflection of world ranking

4 month is nothing - ie world cup - not every one can play
some world tours are pointless
some times there is injury etc

Exaclty. Some players like mattenet or quadri or matsudaira advanced only because they were able to play in world cup. Of course you need to win some games, but you get much more point then the other tournaments.
O think wang hao still wants to play, but now he is getting older and liu guoliang has no motivation to let Him play, because he has at least 4 players better the wang hao.

bencsikzoli · Nov 8, 2014

Tony's Table Tennis said:
Well Africa TTF doesn't have a website
So I doubt there is any record of anything other than ITTF current WR which only started to keep record from 1990s

I have not heard of Musa before, so if he is indeed top wr 20 level, than WOW, I wonder how many other "Africans" know about this

UpSideDownCarl said:
That is interesting. Either they don't have a record of it. Or that article I found is inaccurate. But at the least, Musa was the best African player previously.

According to my archives (ITTF Museum - WR archive) MUSA's best ranking was 40 in June 1981. after that time he always was above 45-50.

Kind regards,
Zoltan Bencsik
ITTF Results & Ranking Manager

bencsikzoli · Nov 8, 2014

Please continue to write your ideas and opinions about the actual ranking system.

I read this topic and collect your ideas to improve our system.

Thank you,
Zoltan Bencsik
ITTF Results & Ranking Manager

Tony's Table Tennis · Nov 8, 2014

Thanks Zoltan,
I totally forgot about ITTF Museum

I also read a lot of articles about Musa, it does indeed state he was WR20 at one stage in his career.
Would you know how is that possible? Is the archives accurate?

Thanks Carl for the share.
I read that Musa moved to the USA and possibly staying (and coaching) in New York now.
I really wonder how many African's know about him.
I read a lot of articles in recent years, but it was all about Nigerian table tennis.

Indeed he beaten a 19 year old Primorac and a young Waldner.
He was said to be USATT 2600 as a veteran

Sali · Nov 8, 2014

bencsikzoli said:
Please continue to write your ideas and opinions about the actual ranking system.

I read this topic and collect your ideas to improve our system.

Thank you,
Zoltan Bencsik
ITTF Results & Ranking Manager

I think it should be as easiest as possible.

First of all after the year has been finished player can keep the points for maximum 4 months. New points from ittf tour are added as it is now. After April all points gathered last year should be canceled. So it should be encouraging for players to take part even in low money tournaments.
There should be some gratification for beating top players and also punishment for loosing with bottom players. Let’s say if Ma Long is beaten by player no. 100 ranked, then Ma Long should get some minus points and also the winner should get extra points.

Tony's Table Tennis · Nov 8, 2014

Zoltan,

Just a question, Is ITTF interested in considering a "rating point" system?

I personally feel the world ranking point system is not a true reflection of the players rating.
IE, if you don't play enough - you are unranked,

Some example of rating system is rating control and usatt rating system.

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 8, 2014

bencsikzoli said:
According to my archives (ITTF Museum - WR archive) MUSA's best ranking was 40 in June 1981. after that time he always was above 45-50.

Kind regards,
Zoltan Bencsik
ITTF Results & Ranking Manager

Tony's Table Tennis said:
Thanks Zoltan,
I totally forgot about ITTF Museum

I also read a lot of articles about Musa, it does indeed state he was WR20 at one stage in his career.
Would you know how is that possible? Is the archives accurate?

Thanks Carl for the share.
I read that Musa moved to the USA and possibly staying (and coaching) in New York now.
I really wonder how many African's know about him.
I read a lot of articles in recent years, but it was all about Nigerian table tennis.

Indeed he beaten a 19 year old Primorac and a young Waldner.
He was said to be USATT 2600 as a veteran

Hey, thanks guys. That is cool.

I can see how it is possible that somewhere, WR #40 turned into WR #20 through self promotion and people did not bother checking facts. I tried to research that and was only able to find quotes from articles that state his highest ranking was #20. And I did notice that none of the articles I have seen list a source for that information. #40 is still not bad and he was a pretty good player. I know guys who say they remember watching his matches and that he was great and fun to watch. And it is true, when he beat Waldner, Waldner was still young. Hahaha.

By the way Tony, Musa lives and coaches in NYC. He is still a pretty decent player. About 7 years ago, he was still rated over 2600. Now his level is going down a bit but he can still play pretty well for a guy who is over 55 and does not do almost any training or competitive play. His last USATT tournament was in 2012 where his rating went down from 2594 to 2538. The last time he was rated over 2600 was 2008 but he was 2594 in 2012 which is pretty close to 2600.

Thanks for the info Zoltan and thanks for doing some research Tony.

MegaZZ · Nov 8, 2014

I have kind of an interesting question, I am reasonably familiar with the so called ELO (created Swedish Professor Arpad Elo if my memory serves me right) rating system (one used internationally in the chess world), I have two questions:

1. Is the USATT rating system based broadly on this rating system (I know many sports use a slightly different version of Elo system)
2. Secondly, would this Elo system be a contender for an international rating system in the international table tennis world?

I can say this Elo system works quite well in the international professional chess world

Tony's Table Tennis · Nov 8, 2014

UpSideDownCarl said:
Hey, thanks guys. That is cool.

I can see how it is possible that somewhere, WR #40 turned into WR #20 through self promotion and people did not bother checking facts. I tried to research that and was only able to find quotes from articles that state his highest ranking was #20. And I did notice that none of the articles I have seen list a source for that information. #40 is still not bad and he was a pretty good player. I know guys who say they remember watching his matches and that he was great and fun to watch. And it is true, when he beat Waldner, Waldner was still young. Hahaha.

By the way Tony, Musa lives and coaches in NYC. He is still a pretty decent player. About 7 years ago, he was still rated over 2600. Now his level is going down a bit but he can still play pretty well for a guy who is over 55 and does not do almost any training or competitive play. His last USATT tournament was in 2012 where his rating went down from 2594 to 2538. The last time he was rated over 2600 was 2008 but he was 2594 in 2012 which is pretty close to 2600.

Thanks for the info Zoltan and thanks for doing some research Tony.

Hey Carl,

Is it possible for you to visit him and ask him about his world ranking... I think that would be the fastest

Also, any idea where he plays/coaches now?

Some previous articles states he was in clubs which I believe are now defunct

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 8, 2014

Tony's Table Tennis said:
Hey Carl,

Is it possible for you to visit him and ask him about his world ranking... I think that would be the fastest
Also, any idea where he plays/coaches now?

Some previous articles states he was in clubs which I believe are now defunct

Sure, I see him several times a week. I have heard him say he was 18th and 19th at different times. I have also heard him say he was in the top 20. But I can ask him again and do it in a way where I let him know that the ITTF Archives have his highest ranking as 40 and do it diplomatically so he knows there is not insult. He is a good and a fun guy so I don't think he would be offended anyway.

He coaches at SPiN. This weekend I probably will not see him because of my work schedule but I will probably see him some time during the week or definitely by next weekend. I will post when I have talked to him. I will PM you as well when I have talked to him.

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 9, 2014

bencsikzoli said:
According to my archives (ITTF Museum - WR archive) MUSA's best ranking was 40 in June 1981. after that time he always was above 45-50.

Kind regards,
Zoltan Bencsik
ITTF Results & Ranking Manager

Hi Zoltan, this question comes up. I have a few friends in NYC and two pieces of information make me wonder more. One of my friends says he goes to Nissan's club out in Brooklyn and they have a poster of Musa from the 80s when he was sponsored by, I think, Butterfly, and the poster says World Ranked #18 or 19. He said he would take a snapshot of that. If I get a hold of that, I will post it here.

The next thing, I have a friend who emailed me a PDF of the archive list and shows rankings from 1980-1991. But it is very incomplete. It has:

July 1980
22nd June 1981
March 1983
30th June 1983
July 1984
10th Feb 1985
25th May 1985
July 1986
January 1987
June 1987
July 1988
March 1989
June 1989
15th August 1990
June 1991

That is the entire list. This guy is a friend and writer and was sent the PDF for research. He said he was sent that list 3-4 months ago. Is this the list you are using? Or do you have ALL THE MONTHS that are missing. Because there are actually whole years that are missing. There are no entries for 1982 at all.

So, if that was the list, it would make sense that you don't have a record of Musa being higher than 40th. But, if you do have the complete list, that would also be interesting that he never was that high and there is a poster from Butterfly that says he was.

bencsikzoli · Nov 9, 2014

UpSideDownCarl said:
Hi Zoltan, this question comes up. I have a few friends in NYC and two pieces of information make me wonder more. One of my friends says he goes to Nissan's club out in Brooklyn and they have a poster of Musa from the 80s when he was sponsored by, I think, Butterfly, and the poster says World Ranked #18 or 19. He said he would take a snapshot of that. If I get a hold of that, I will post it here.

The next thing, I have a friend who emailed me a PDF of the archive list and shows rankings from 1980-1991. But it is very incomplete. It has:

July 1980
22nd June 1981
March 1983
30th June 1983
July 1984
10th Feb 1985
25th May 1985
July 1986
January 1987
June 1987
July 1988
March 1989
June 1989
15th August 1990
June 1991

That is the entire list. This guy is a friend and writer and was sent the PDF for research. He said he was sent that list 3-4 months ago. Is this the list you are using? Or do you have ALL THE MONTHS that are missing. Because there are actually whole years that are missing. There are no entries for 1982 at all.

So, if that was the list, it would make sense that you don't have a record of Musa being higher than 40th. But, if you do have the complete list, that would also be interesting that he never was that high and there is a poster from Butterfly that says he was.

Hi Carl,

Yes, unfortunately this is also the one I have. Really 1982 is missing maybe that year Musa was higher than 40th.

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 9, 2014

bencsikzoli said:
Hi Carl,

Yes, unfortunately this is also the one I have. Really 1982 is missing maybe that year Musa was higher than 40th.

Oh okay. So you actually don't have a full record. That is a lot of time that is off the chart.

There are 11 months missing from 1980; 11 months missing from 1981; all 12 months are missing from 1982; 10 months are missing from 1983; 11 months are missing from 1984; and 10 months are missing from 1985.

Out of 72 months from 1980-1985 you only have records for 7 months. That leaves 65 months unaccounted for.

So you really can't say what Musa's highest ranking was at all.

When I get a copy of that poster, I will post it here.

I thought you were saying Musa's highest ranking was 40th based on having ranking stats for all months.

Wow. That could be a pretty big oversight.

Hopefully Quadri gets to top 15 so there is no issue and he does become the highest ranking African in history. But ITTF can't really say he is the highest ranked African yet if it doesn't have complete records on those months.

Hopefully, when I find the poster it says what month he achieved that ranking in the top 20. It may have been in 1982 when he won the Goodwill games.

Thanks for the info and the honesty Zoltan. I really appreciate it.

I will try and find something that shows Musa's highest ranking and when he got there.

November 2014 World Rankings

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