btfy alc: limba or koto?

sebas-aguirre · Jan 27, 2015

butterfly alc blades:

limba(michael maze) or koto(viscaria, zjk, tb, etc.)?

which one do you prefer?

justify your answer.

Tommy16 · Jan 27, 2015

Limba for me. I have played with TBS, Viscaria and Viscaria light before Maze. I found that Maze has the lowest throw and best overall feeling. I do think that these are just a matter of preferences.

Olio · Jan 27, 2015

Limba,

I've played with ZJK and Viscaria, but the MMaze brings such soft touch that I really prefer Limba outer now. I did not find a difference in throw though.

sebas-aguirre · Jan 28, 2015

I'm currently using zjk alc, I think it's great.
also all top level players prefer koto vs limba (except for freitas).
but I was thinking maybe for players with lower level the added control and less spin of maze might be a good thing.

Olio · Jan 29, 2015

Sebas-aguirre, first let me say I read many of your equipment test, which were succinct but useful. It seems the website has disappeared?

About limba / Koto, I'm suprised you think Maze brings less spin. As Limba increases dwell, on most shots you can actually put more spin. The only exception might be (I'm not even sure) on very high speed shots

sebas-aguirre · Jan 29, 2015

Olio said:
Sebas-aguirre, first let me say I read many of your equipment test, which were succinct but useful. It seems the website has disappeared?

About limba / Koto, I'm suprised you think Maze brings less spin. As Limba increases dwell, on most shots you can actually put more spin. The only exception might be (I'm not even sure) on very high speed shots

yes I put the website down because well to start I don't buy that much stuff anymore so I was rarely updating it.
and also I was paying the hosting and even though I had "google adsense" the amount they pay you is a joke, it's not even enough to pay the hosting.
and on top of that in order to review you have to buy the stuff.
so yeah the income balance was negative negative.

as for limba vs koto, I actually think koto is spinier.
to put a few examples, I can get more spin out of my zjk alc than from say a "donic waldner senso carbon" or a "dhs hurricane long v" (both limba blades).

I don't know how to explain this scientifically but imagine putting a pillow under your rubber and then putting a piece of steel under your rubber.
which one would give you more spin?
the steel.
spining is like slicing a ball.
what would you rather have? a plastic knife or a steel knife?

so I think hard surface + not bouncy = extreme spin
but this also makes it more reactive to incoming spin -> less control

Olio · Jan 29, 2015

We'll probably have to disagree on Limba vs Koto then. Limba isn't quite a pillow, is it? Ma Long does not seem to have problems spinning the ball. Same goes for all the CNT members playing with DHS 506, 998 et 997. Same goes with Korbel, Primorac, Ovcharov, Mizutani...

I've played extensively with Limba and Koto outers, and as I said the dwell and softness allow for more spin in my opinion. And Koto is harder and bouncier than Limba in my experience.

It's a shame about the website. Many of us will miss it.

NextLevel · Jan 29, 2015

Ttping85 says that limbs tends to spin more than koto on the extreme shots but Lori spins more in between.

UpSideDownCarl · Feb 4, 2015

It is an interesting idea. For higher level players this may in fact be accurate. I know I was just going between a blade with a Koto top ply and a Limba top ply. I feel like, in general I personally get more spin with the Limba. I know that when I loop with the Limba blade it is much harder to counter and block because of the extra spin. But I felt something with the Koto blade where, when I get more precise contact it felt like it bit into the ball and I would get extra spin and pace. After playing with it for a month and then going back to the Limba blade however, I found that with that same contact I, personally was getting massive spin on my loops.

So, it may be the case or it may be that those guys are so good that they would rather the extra power and preciseness from the Koto.

But it is hard to say, in the right hands, Koto may be able to generate more spin; certainly as much spin.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

anchorschmidt · Feb 4, 2015

sebas-aguirre said:
yes I put the website down because well to start I don't buy that much stuff anymore so I was rarely updating it.
and also I was paying the hosting and even though I had "google adsense" the amount they pay you is a joke, it's not even enough to pay the hosting.
and on top of that in order to review you have to buy the stuff.
so yeah the income balance was negative negative.

as for limba vs koto, I actually think koto is spinier.
to put a few examples, I can get more spin out of my zjk alc than from say a "donic waldner senso carbon" or a "dhs hurricane long v" (both limba blades).

I don't know how to explain this scientifically but imagine putting a pillow under your rubber and then putting a piece of steel under your rubber.
which one would give you more spin?
the steel.
spining is like slicing a ball.
what would you rather have? a plastic knife or a steel knife?

so I think hard surface + not bouncy = extreme spin
but this also makes it more reactive to incoming spin -> less control

Would it be possible for you to repost the reviews on a free wordpress or blogger website ?

tomkei · Feb 5, 2015

currently using xiom hayabusa zx with limba outer, and i love it

Olio · Feb 5, 2015

UpSideDownCarl said:
It is an interesting idea. For higher level players this may in fact be accurate. I know I was just going between a blade with a Koto top ply and a Limba top ply. I feel like, in general I personally get more spin with the Limba. I know that when I loop with the Limba blade it is much harder to counter and block because of the extra spin. But I felt something with the Koto blade where, when I get more precise contact it felt like it bit into the ball and I would get extra spin and pace. After playing with it for a month and then going back to the Limba blade however, I found that with that same contact I, personally was getting massive spin on my loops.

So, it may be the case or it may be that those guys are so good that they would rather the extra power and preciseness from the Koto.

But it is hard to say, in the right hands, Koto may be able to generate more spin; certainly as much spin.

I'm with Carl on this one. I think top players (and blockers) prefer Koto as it's harder and more powerful. In the end, they have fantastic touch, and boost like mad, so for most, they'd trade some spin (Limba) for more power (Koto). Specially when you consider they'll always play with new rubbers (and generally you and I don't).

I'm coming back to Limba, after 2 years of playing Koto blades, and I really love it. I can play with Koto. I feel better with Limba.
Note that I play with unboosted Tenergy, so maybe if I used FX version on Koto I'll prefer it too...

UpSideDownCarl · Feb 5, 2015

Olio said:
I'm with Carl on this one. I think top players (and blockers) prefer Koto as it's harder and more powerful. In the end, they have fantastic touch, and boost like mad, so for most, they'd trade some spin (Limba) for more power (Koto). Specially when you consider they'll always play with new rubbers (and generally you and I don't).

I'm coming back to Limba, after 2 years of playing Koto blades, and I really love it. I can play with Koto. I feel better with Limba.
Note that I play with unboosted Tenergy, so maybe if I used FX version on Koto I'll prefer it too...

For me there is something about how woody Limba feels that I love.

sebas-aguirre · Feb 5, 2015

anchorschmidt said:
Would it be possible for you to repost the reviews on a free wordpress or blogger website ?

yes, maybe I'll just put all the info on a blog.
thanks for the suggestion

as for the blade, I still keep thinking about getting a maze, but i also wonder if it is so good then why is there only 1 player probably in the top 100 using it?

for the koto version, 5 of the current top 10 used this at some point.

also, I was watching maze himself to see if he justified my purchase and his answer was not very encouraging...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaQBaaa39xY&t=1m40s

UpSideDownCarl · Feb 5, 2015

sebas-aguirre said:
yes, maybe I'll just put all the info on a blog.
thanks for the suggestion

as for the blade, I still keep thinking about getting a maze, but i also wonder if it is so good then why is there only 1 player probably in the top 100 using it?

for the koto version, 5 of the current top 10 used this at some point.

also, I was watching maze himself to see if he justified my purchase and his answer was not very encouraging...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaQBaaa39xY&t=1m40s

This is how I would think of that: if you want it and can afford it, there is no reason not to get it. If you play with it for a while and decide you like one of the Koto blades better, then you can go back to any of them. If you end up liking the way the Maze feels better, then it was more than worthwhile.

If money was tight, not worth it. If you are into table tennis and can afford it, it is a blade for the collection no matter whether you end up using it as your main blade or not.

I personally just love the way a Limba top ply feels. Koto feels cool. But Limba somehow just feels alive in my hand.

Oh, one more thing: Maze did not ply well in that match. But, if you look at the arc on his loops, he is getting good spin so it was not the fault of the blade. It actually looks like he needs to train much more.

Sent from my SpyPhone using BladeCollectionTalk

yoass · Jun 26, 2017

I grew up on the Stiga Offensive of days past, Koto-Spruce-Ayous-Spruce-Koto. Loved it but lost it while not playing for a few decades.

When getting back, I got me a new Stiga Offensive Classic — Limba-Spruce-Ayous-Spruce-Limba. Loved it less; it felt tough, dampened when striking. Flicks didn't work anymore at all, and after trying out some gear of other club members went out to buy a TB ALC, Koto-ALC-Limba-Kiri-Limba-ALC-Koto but came home with an Andro Treiber K (same composition). Never looked back since then.

For me it's Koto; I like the crispness when hitting through the blade, and the firm way the ball is grabbed when brushing.

That being said, every now and then I wonder what the Treiber Z would be like, which is a Hinoki-ALC-Limba-Kiri-Limba-ALC-Hinoki blade if I'm not mistaken.

SilentRain · Jun 26, 2017

Comes down to personal preference. Mine will be Limba, love that flex as Im a looper and i feel limba helps more than Koto for my play.

QWERTY Spin · Jun 26, 2017

i too played harder koto blades most of my time. So i feel more at home with koto outer. it feels for me like there is more of a difference in feeling between rubber and blade when looping. with softer limba blades i cant distinguish this effect as good as with koto. i like the limba feeling but the direct nature of koto gives me a better sensation of control. But I never played a composite limba blade like: maze alc, mizutani zlc or Vega pro. maybe a carbon layer under a limba outer ply would change my preference.

fais · Jul 5, 2017

sebas-aguirre said:
yes I put the website down because well to start I don't buy that much stuff anymore so I was rarely updating it.
and also I was paying the hosting and even though I had "google adsense" the amount they pay you is a joke, it's not even enough to pay the hosting.
and on top of that in order to review you have to buy the stuff.
so yeah the income balance was negative negative.

as for limba vs koto, I actually think koto is spinier.
to put a few examples, I can get more spin out of my zjk alc than from say a "donic waldner senso carbon" or a "dhs hurricane long v" (both limba blades).

I don't know how to explain this scientifically but imagine putting a pillow under your rubber and then putting a piece of steel under your rubber.
which one would give you more spin?
the steel.
spining is like slicing a ball.
what would you rather have? a plastic knife or a steel knife?

so I think hard surface + not bouncy = extreme spin
but this also makes it more reactive to incoming spin -> less control

I don't quite understand this hyperbolic analogy, be size I'm inclined to think the opposite? A pillow for me would generate more spin, because the longer the ball sinks into the pillow the more time the pillow has to impart momentum into it? A ball would bounces off the steel to quickly to even absorb any of its energy? This is the basis behind mechanical spin, the need for grippy rubbers.

yuri.saldon · Jul 5, 2017

Today I test some koto alc blades zjk blue dragon (with tenergy 05) and viscaria (with mx-p).

In comparison to my Bo 2 I found both much harder zjk most harder before viscaria.

Because of it Bo 2 has a lot more dwell, you feel ball dig in but is a notch slower. Not that much but something noticeable slower

Sent from my 2014819 using Tapatalk

btfy alc: limba or koto?

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