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On a more serious note .. following the shape of the ball increases control but decreases the spin on the forehand side unless you are hitting around the ball which again increases the corkscrew but we are not talking about that shot here, on the backhand side it will be okay because the natural follow through following the arc would not decrease the whip , but on the forehand side its not a natural follow through of the whip and it is bound to decelerate ...

Here is one good player on the subject. In fact, your joints are all circular so unless you are trying to force your racket to act differently, it will generally follow the shape of the ball.

https://youtu.be/eJuCMb79oWo

The issue then becomes whether choice of racket path can accentuate this. Everyone can experiment for themselves. When rebuilding my forehand, I experimented extensively and came to my conclusions. In fact, I think that in some ways, I was held back even after realizing this worked by following form over function. I am tall so my backhand is generally shallow and since I don't bend my knees, my forehand closes to the table was likely going to be too. Timo plays close to the table and often plays shallow strokes. I should really have set some parameters around my game and done the same though I did learn a lot trying to get the form right.
 
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Don't get me wrong, I am not against corkscrew .. .it adds a lot of safety to the shot ...however what I have realized is too much of a good thing is not good either .. so you want to be able to conscious about how much and when .... otherwise it will limit your stroke and you will only be hitting one kind of topspin and especially the feeling on the fade goes away ... just my two cents...
Hmm, maybe this is what happens when topspins get a bit too much of corkscrew, the path is more around the ball. I have more corkscrew on diagonal topspins. I guess a straighter diagonal path from start to finish position gives a cleaner topspin.
 
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What do you guys mean with corkscrew spin? Is it the same as a heavy side spin/banana loop?
It is just a sidespin loop, or a hook shot if you want. The one you get when you hit more on the right side (for a right hander) of the ball. At least the one I had in mind, since you also got a fade.
 
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Break out the top secret Goon Squad diagram of top/under, side, and corkscrew spins...

types_of_spins.jpg.jpg
 
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Gunna upload one match in 2 vids vs Scoobie Doo where I lost 3-0. I was not happy with some of my finishing and Scoobie Doo didn't miss a lot and got breaks. That is usually a good combo. (What Sergey did) Sergey wins 98% of the matches.

I usually lose 0-3 to him, but every few matches I win one game. Every time I play vs him it seems I have improved some things, but he also improved and it is situation normal for who wins. I am normally happy to just be able to compete vs him if I can. His play style is not an easy one for me. His touch is a lot better than it looks on camera.

Some positives to keep are I played an ever improving short receive percentage, I had higher landing percentage on BH flips, Sergey's first ball didn't kill me all the time and I counter topspin more than before, I create many good chances (but converted not so many of them), I gave Sergey not so many easy chances to initiate offense right away, I rallied with him more than a few months ago, I have a plan to play most of the points when receiving his serve to pressure and get an advantage in a rally (but it is tough to get much by him) I don't give away serves to him anymore (but he is accustomed to most of mine - so all I can really do is limit his options or funnel him into something predictable)…

Sergey is a very consistent player who doesn't go apeshyt on power every offensive stroke. He would rather make 8 loops than 1 or 2 to win a point.

He is mid 2100s level player and I am mid 1900s level player. That is 2-2.5 levels of difference. If no one noticed it, Der_Echte is 1.7 meters tall 110kg heavy dude attempting to play an offensive style game.

Game 1 and 2

 
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Even without watching the video I can tell you 95% of what is happening. Scobie doo is good at returning serves. I also see that he is a lefty which is even weirder for DerEchte. DerEchte gets a lot of mileage out of people struggling with his serves. If you can return DerEchte's serves competently, the match dynamics are very different. DerEchte also seems to be struggling to find the short lefty forehand.
 
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Even without watching the video I can tell you 95% of what is happening. Scobie doo is good at returning serves. I also see that he is a lefty which is even weirder for DerEchte. DerEchte gets a lot of mileage out of people struggling with his serves. If you can return DerEchte's serves competently, the match dynamics are very different. DerEchte also seems to be struggling to find the short lefty forehand.

I've seen the footage, and did notice the pressure on Sergey's returns. Awkward placement and pace: tight over the net. and often deep to the body. I think a relatively high rate of failed or somewhat poor openups ensued.

I was surprised by the bananaflicks here and there. Good stuff.
 
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I building for a giant tabletennis tournament so Do not have much time. So only watched a few minutes.

I can clearly see that you are playing way to difficult. You miss to much because you play to difficult. He barely wins the ball, it is you that misses. If you play much easier and out the ball on the table i Do not think he is so much better than you.

Edit: Tired now after carrying tables. The tournament goes on for five days, with participants from like 40 countries so it is much to do. I have watched a little more of the match. And i still stand by my previous statement. You play way way to difficult för your level, that is why you miss. The other guy is not doing anything good really, it is more that you want to much, so you play to difficult and miss. In examlpe, everytime he pushes long ypu play way to hard and miss. It would be enough if you loop more upward, softer, with spin and a high arc so always put the first opening on the table. Now you want to play to hard and to low so the margin for error is big. It will be enough to just loop it on to the table, on this levev and many other levels above the opponent will often block the loop and then you can attack harder.

I still feel that he is not much better than you, it is more that you play to difficult and to hard, while he play more easy, put the ball on the table and wait for you to make a mistake. Try playing much easier and more safe and i think you might win.
 
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I have read that thread before, but I would still call it a sidespin topspin (or loop) as players around me do. You may refer to it as corkscrew, I think it's just semantics. It still carries an amount of sidespin. I would actually call a pendulum side/top side/back serves as types of sidespin serves, even if they are a combination and it is important to know the distinction.

Anyway, nothing good will come out of discussing this topic either here or in that thread. I will leave it at that.
 
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I think your loops are a bit tense der_echte, making lots of looping errors vs balls which should probably not be attempted to hit for winners. He plays solid nothing fancy TT and lets you beat yourself. Loosen that grip and use body more, you're trying to man handle some of them. You have enough speed you don't need to force it. Backhand flicks look better than backhands away from the table because of the whip.

You play like a bear, needs to be more like a cat. You can beat him soon.
 
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Don’t have time to properly comment as I’m just about to go to a tournament.

But..... I can see one clear advantage for Sergey.......

He blends in so well with the walls, that I imagine it’s like playing a floating head and arms ;)

Scoobie often wears a white shirt as he comes to the club directly from work. His shirt wasn't really an issue for me in this or other matches so much.

As NL said, he gets my serves back with quality. If I serve long, 80% of the time he successfully lands an attack. I win maybe 10-20% of that, so he has 60-70% winning percentage on my long serves. No good for me except for that occasional long serve to keep the other serves having a chance of effectiveness. If my serve is high or sloppy, he will punish it like players his class can.

Since I serve mostly short, he either bumps short (70%), puts into net (10%), or flips (20%). That forces me to strategically develop how to continue without giving away the point.

On the short bump, he doesn't pop it up, unless I give him a dead serve to his FH. I never really had a step in FH hit over the table. I do now, it is improving, and it needs to improve more in quality and consistency.

If he bumps it to my BH short, it is usually very low and close to net, not so high percentage for me to flip kill. So I try to bump short to his BH, if I can do that without misreading a dead ball and pop it up, I manage to keep it low enough where he steps in an pushes deep and extreme heavy under. I love that ball a lot and can initiate offense well.

If he flips, it is usually to my wide FH. If I am surprised, it is by me. If I am not surprised, I can get to it and make a loop... not a killer loop, but a light to medium spin loop low to his middle or BH. He doesn't BH punch those well, so I get another crack at offense. However, he is such a great rally player and covers so much ground, I need to make several attacks to get a better crack at a better chance... and often I do not read the depth of his ball on those, so I lose more of my chances than I convert, except on a real good day.

He serves mostly light (sometimes medium spin), but has every variation you can think of from BH and FH. You can still mis-read and get punished. Most of his serves are short, but he serves half long 10-15%, I have to be ready to punish those, and I do on good days, don't on other days. My BH flip vs his short serve has improved the most of any aspect. Sometimes he gives me enough angle to get it by him, 90% of the time he cross-over steps and gets it back. His touch is so good and difficult to read, one is right to be reluctant to attack that return strongly... it is an invitation to lose the point right away. I make another BH loop to his FH or FH/Middle area and look to step around for a FH chance. He gets those down the line fast BH too... I have to be ready to go back quick to his FH.

Rallying with Sergey is tough. His touch is real good and he gets most everything back in a way that is difficult to high percentage power away.

Despite the usual losing result, playing matches vs Sergey is helping me develop a LOT of my fundamental flaws I need to grow for strategic goals. What I need to grow is not developed enough to apply successfully vs all my opponents at my current level, but it is going to crack even or above very soon (like within a year) and that part will fuel improvement in my playing level for some time.

I look like a sorry bag of doo-doo vs Sergey and a player 2 or 2.5 levels better will often do that. Heck, I make some players just one level below mine look like they are in diapers. That is what better players do in TT.
 
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Lula said:
I still feel that he is not much better than you, it is more that you play to difficult and to hard, while he play more easy, put the ball on the table and wait for you to make a mistake. Try playing much easier and more safe and i think you might win.

Sergey is easily 2+ levels better... such a class of player puts pressure on their lower rated opponents to play that way, because if the lower player plays too safe, that player gunna get punished. You would have to see how he plays vs other players of his class to know he is simply a winner. I have my good days vs him, but most of the matches are like this one - a convincing loss, with Der_Echte improving upon a lot of what is needed without any game/match results to show for it.

If I can get Scoobie Doo to actually register and post on here, he would tell you all a different dynamic. He has been playing vs me the last 1.5 years and knows more than anyone what is changing and improving in my game (that really needed improvement) He would also tell you I force him to adapt (he is doing a bang-up job of that) and improve as well. Scoobie has also gotten 2 levels better the last 1.5 years as well.

I got a long way to go to reach his level, but it IS within possibility. I have the offense to do it, but need a lot more consistency and ability to play at different speeds with quality to get there. Also need to read the ball better.
 
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Have you tried to force him to loop diagonal serves to his forehand that are half long ? ... the elbow buster ones ?
Scoobie often wears a white shirt as he comes to the club directly from work. His shirt wasn't really an issue for me in this or other matches so much.

As NL said, he gets my serves back with quality. If I serve long, 80% of the time he successfully lands an attack. I win maybe 10-20% of that, so he has 60-70% winning percentage on my long serves. No good for me except for that occasional long serve to keep the other serves having a chance of effectiveness. If my serve is high or sloppy, he will punish it like players his class can.

Since I serve mostly short, he either bumps short (70%), puts into net (10%), or flips (20%). That forces me to strategically develop how to continue without giving away the point.

On the short bump, he doesn't pop it up, unless I give him a dead serve to his FH. I never really had a step in FH hit over the table. I do now, it is improving, and it needs to improve more in quality and consistency.

If he bumps it to my BH short, it is usually very low and close to net, not so high percentage for me to flip kill. So I try to bump short to his BH, if I can do that without misreading a dead ball and pop it up, I manage to keep it low enough where he steps in an pushes deep and extreme heavy under. I love that ball a lot and can initiate offense well.

If he flips, it is usually to my wide FH. If I am surprised, it is by me. If I am not surprised, I can get to it and make a loop... not a killer loop, but a light to medium spin loop low to his middle or BH. He doesn't BH punch those well, so I get another crack at offense. However, he is such a great rally player and covers so much ground, I need to make several attacks to get a better crack at a better chance... and often I do not read the depth of his ball on those, so I lose more of my chances than I convert, except on a real good day.

He serves mostly light (sometimes medium spin), but has every variation you can think of from BH and FH. You can still mis-read and get punished. Most of his serves are short, but he serves half long 10-15%, I have to be ready to punish those, and I do on good days, don't on other days. My BH flip vs his short serve has improved the most of any aspect. Sometimes he gives me enough angle to get it by him, 90% of the time he cross-over steps and gets it back. His touch is so good and difficult to read, one is right to be reluctant to attack that return strongly... it is an invitation to lose the point right away. I make another BH loop to his FH or FH/Middle area and look to step around for a FH chance. He gets those down the line fast BH too... I have to be ready to go back quick to his FH.

Rallying with Sergey is tough. His touch is real good and he gets most everything back in a way that is difficult to high percentage power away.

Despite the usual losing result, playing matches vs Sergey is helping me develop a LOT of my fundamental flaws I need to grow for strategic goals. What I need to grow is not developed enough to apply successfully vs all my opponents at my current level, but it is going to crack even or above very soon (like within a year) and that part will fuel improvement in my playing level for some time.

I look like a sorry bag of doo-doo vs Sergey and a player 2 or 2.5 levels better will often do that. Heck, I make some players just one level below mine look like they are in diapers. That is what better players do in TT.
 
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