Darko Jorgic - best backhand ever?

RidTheKid · Feb 14, 2020

Language barrier, Carl. Lets see you have a discussion in Swedish shall we?

A good backhand doesn't exist in a vacuum or isolation. It's good compared to something. If you don't understand that you don't understand life.

UpSideDownCarl said:
Oh god of Delphi. Oh great Phoebus Apollo.....

Phoebus Apollo: Phoebus is an epithet meaning "bright", "shining". It was an epithet that indicated Apollo was sometimes depicted as the god of the sun. It would have given an ancient Greek person familiar with all the traditional tales an instant descriptive image of the god.

Dirty Old Man: Dirty Old is a descriptive phrase that gives you an instant picture of the person being described. Just as, for the Ancient Greeks, "Pheobus" would give an instant image of some of the concepts the god Apollo was wrapped in.

"Good backhand" IS NOT AN EPITHET. It is simply a basic description. It does not give a larger than life image of Pitch. Most top players have a good BH. I have seen Pitch give FZD trouble when they go BH to BH, so, "good BH" when describing Pitch may be an understatement but IT DEFINITELY IS NOT AN EPITHET.

In your post you say: "I don't challenge the claim." But anyone who watches Pitch play can see he can play with most of the top players fairly decently BH to BH. Right?

I am left scratching my head about how you attacked NL for saying Pitch has a good BH. It is almost like your are arguing simply to argue.

Baal · Feb 14, 2020

Fan i helvete!

UpSideDownCarl · Feb 14, 2020

RidTheKid said:
Language barrier, Carl. Lets see you have a discussion in Swedish shall we?

A good backhand doesn't exist in a vacuum or isolation. It's good compared to something. If you don't understand that you don't understand life.

I accept the language barrier statement for the term epithet. It makes sense. A dictionary definition that looks like a fancy term for description could get lost in translation if you don't understand how the term is actually used in English. "Oh Storm Gatherer Liam Pitchford of the Thunderclap Backhand." hahahaha. There I used an epithet for Liam and another for his backhand.

But given we all do understand TT to some extent, is "Pitchford has a good BH" a statement that really needs to be quantified when he has given so many top players who are BH oriented a lot of trouble and been on the winning end of so many rallies where he was being pinned to his BH by a strong opponent like the little kid who screams or FZD?

Okay: I think Liam Pitchford has a good BH because I have seen him give a lot of players higher level than he is loads of problems by going BH to BH with them and pinning them on the BH side to control the rally. Does that work?

RidTheKid · Feb 14, 2020

I don't seem to make myself understood so I'll try to explain as simply as I possibly can.

This was never about Pitchford or his bh, but we talked about him because NL mentioned him. Like I said, I'm not questioning that Pitch has a good backhand, but how one get to that conclusion.

This thread is created because someone thinks Jorgics bh is maybe the best in the world, and some people agree with him, some don't. As you know I don't agree. I think that is very uninformed stance on TT

Because you have to put that backhand into perspective, and in relation to other players backhands to be able to know how good it is. If that backhand has lots of power but misses often I don't consider it to carry the weight of being the best bh in the world, especially since that player hasn't one any big trophies. In todays TT you can't win with just one big weapon, you need a complete set of skills, prove me wrong!

If one deprends too much on one stroke, that to me is a circus act that won't survive long on the tour. In Jorgics case his fh is ok, it was actually better than his bh against Boll.

There are at least 10-15 players with better bh than Jorgic, pretty easy to find them as well.

UpSideDownCarl said:
I accept the language barrier statement for the term epithet. It makes sense. But given we all do understand TT to some extent, does "Pitchford has a good BH" a statement that really needs to be quantified when he has given so many top players who are BH oriented a lot of trouble and been on the winning end of so many rallies where he was being pinned to his BH by a strong opponent like the little kid who screams or FZD?

UpSideDownCarl · Feb 14, 2020

RidTheKid said:
This thread is created because someone thinks Jorgics bh is maybe the best in the world, and some people agree with him, some don't. As you know I don't agree. I think that is very uninformed stance on TT

This is where you and a few others seem to keep going off the rails:

Who has said Joric has the best BH? Nobody has. Not even the OP.

The OP wrote in the first Post A QUESTION MARK ??????? after the phrase IN SMALL LETTERS "best backhand ever" ??????

Show me one person in this thread who said Joric has the BEST BH EVER. NOBODY DID. And each time I have said nobody did, none of the people who said IT IS IMPRESSIVE THAT HE COULD PLAY A CHOPPER WITH HIS BH THAT WAY, said they were saying he had the best BH ever.

It is very simple, IF YOU ACTUALLY READ and understand ENGLISH, to understand that someone putting BEST BH EVER followed by A QUESTION MARK ?????? that you are most likely posing the question to get people to talk and discuss.

But show me someone who has made the DEFINITIVE STATEMENT that Joric has the best BH.

Please note, there is a reason why I made the post quoted below.

You are one of the people who keep arguing that others are saying Joric has the best BH ever when NOBODY HAS SAID IT.

UpSideDownCarl said:
It was put in the title with a question mark. So, sure, say, "pretty good but there are better."

But this conversation seems odd:

- "Its not the best ever."

- "It is pretty amazing. Look at how hard he hits."

- "You are wrong. It is not the best ever."

- "Look at the things he can do against chop."

- "You are wrong. There are a lot of players whose BH was better."

- "It is remarkable. I have never seen anyone do that with the BH. I am not saying his BH is the best ever. But damn, it is pretty unique and darn good."

- "Nope. I disagree. It is not the best ever."

I mean....hahahaha.

- I am not saying he has the best BH ever.

- Nope, I disagree. He does not have the best BH ever.

You are not alone. But you have done this over and over and over in this thread. You are arguing against someone who does not exist.

Who said Joric has the best BH ever?

UpSideDownCarl · Feb 14, 2020

By the way, anyone who is saying Darko Joric has the best backhand ever, please stand up and say you think that.

But if you were saying, "man that is an awesome BH to watch, it is pretty amazing he can do that against a chopper," or something like that, then feel free to ignore RidTheKid when he is arguing against a Straw Man fashioned by his own imagination so he could argue against someone he could present as 100% wrong since the Straw Man is a figment of his imagination.

piligrim · Feb 14, 2020

It's funny. How many times more will need to say that nobody said Jorgic has best BH ever

RidTheKid · Feb 14, 2020

Carl, I think you need to go through this thread again

Not for me, but for your own sake. Threads like these are meant to cause division and they succeed in that. I can tell you one more thing, the guys with really good backhands are practicing their backhand right now instead of talking to strangers on the internet. Maybe I should practice tonight.

UpSideDownCarl · Feb 14, 2020

RidTheKid said:
Carl, I think you need to go through this thread again Not for me, but for your own sake. Threads like these are meant to cause division and they succeed in that. I can tell you one more thing, the guys with really good backhands are practicing their backhand right now instead of talking to strangers on the internet. Maybe I should practice tonight.

You are the one claiming someone said someone had the best BH. If you are claiming that when nobody else did, you would be the one who needs to go back through the thread.

But you actually do this kind of thing more frequently than you may realize which is why I am belaboring the point. Someone says something; you interpret it to mean something more extreme; and then you argue against the fake straw man who said the more extreme version that nobody actually said.

Has anyone on this thread actually asserted that Darko has the Best BH Ever?

RidTheKid · Feb 14, 2020

Both piligrim and NL seems to think it, see first page, NL's post no 10. Even zeio chime in. You're the straw man atm Carl

UpSideDownCarl said:
You are the one claiming someone said someone had the best BH. If you are claiming that when nobody else did, you would be the one who needs to go back through the thread.

But you actually do this kind of thing more frequently than you may realize which is why I am belaboring the point. Someone says something; you interpret it to mean something more extreme; and then you argue against the fake straw man who said the more extreme version that nobody actually said.

NextLevel · Feb 14, 2020

RidTheKid said:
Both piligrim and NL seems to think it, see first page, NL's post no 10. Even zeio chime in. You're the straw man atm Carl

You know better since I have posted extensively.

I think most people have agreed that he has one of (if not the) the most powerful backhand loops ever, which is the main criteria for this silly discussion. People have decided to expand it to overall backhand play which is fine.

I have also stated in many posts that one could argue that his overall backhand play is not as good as the top players but top players win as top players with their overall play and tactics and are rarely deficient in any stroke. But amongst the imbalanced ones, solid backhand play is critical in all phases. I think Jorgic suffers with the close to the table counterspin when compared to the others but even some of the players other list as having better backhands on the all time list are similarly not so skilled.

UpSideDownCarl · Feb 14, 2020

RidTheKid said:
Both piligrim and NL seems to think it, see first page, NL's post no 10. Even zeio chime in. You're the straw man atm Carl

Perhaps you don't know what a straw man is.

English again.

NextLevel: did you say Darko has the best BH ever? Or did you say it is impressive what he can do to a chop with his BH?

Pilgrim, did you say Darko has the best BH ever? Or did you say it was darn good?

UpSideDownCarl said:
I think some of you may be arguing past each other.

The OP (MJB999) did say best ever. But I don't think NL is saying that. I think Baal's comment may sum things up well:

So, the people saying, "the backhand is exceptional but probably not the best ever," and the people saying, "someone whose backhand is so good that he can play a high level chopper using his backhand as such a primary weapon is exceptional," are not necessarily disagreeing.

Leaving things like best ever out, can you guys agree that Darko Jorgic does some pretty amazing things with his backhand. To me it is pretty amazing to see him end points with the BH vs Chop in that way. I would take his BH if I could.

There is a reason why most people at that level won't use the BH vs Chop. The strike zone is so much smaller than the FH strike zone; there is very little room for error. You have to be in very precise position for those shots to work. And, he seems darn good at doing it. So, I would say that is pretty amazing.

Best ever? Usually, I think statements like best ever are for getting people to argue. I am not really sure there is a best ever in anything. Or there are many best evers and then people argue that there best ever is better than someone else's best ever. Good for clickbait. But not for honest discussions.

NextLevel said:
Yeah, you summed it up well. But I still think there is something inconsistent about praising Karaksevic or Kreanga then putting down Jorgic.

Does that sound like he said best ever. If he did he would not be agreeing with my summary.

NextLevel said:
I thought more people appreciated the level.of difficulty involved in playing a world class chopper by running around your forehand to play a backhand. As in putting the match on your backhand loop vs chop. It is like doing a Simone Biles routine.

NextLevel said:
Yes. It goes back to what you consider a good backhand. It is a matter of opinion. But I think we need to give Jorigic some credit for what he does. Even the CNT gave Dima credit when Dima was obviously an imbalanced but extremely hard working player.

I still don't see him saying best ever.

UpSideDownCarl · Feb 14, 2020

Or, here:

piligrim said:
Agree. his BH one of best in a world for sure.

Does he say BEST EVER. Or does he say he thinks it is one of the best today?

How about here:

piligrim said:
It's funny. How many times more will need to say that nobody said Jorgic has best BH ever

piligrim said:
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]

[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Can you actually read? [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]By the way, a straw man is a fictional character you have made up to argue against who cannot argue back because he does not exist who has taken extreme positions that are easily argued against.
[/FONT]
The only position I have stated is that you and a few others are arguing against a position THAT NOBODY IS TAKING. So, the idea that you said I am the straw man either means you don't understand the term. Or that you are just trying to argue to argue.

But to me, it does not look like NL or Pilgrim said BEST EVER.

So I will repeat this post since you clearly either do not read, or cannot comprehend:

piligrim said:
It's funny. How many times more will need to say that nobody said Jorgic has best BH ever

piligrim said:

RidTheKid · Feb 14, 2020

Now I know you are just arguing because you have nothing better to do. No date för Valentines?

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UpSideDownCarl · Feb 14, 2020

RidTheKid said:
Now I know you are just arguing because you have nothing better to do. No date för Valentines?

Skickat från min SM-G930F via Tapatalk

Who freakin said Best BH Ever? The people you say said it, clearly do not.

Learn to read.

UpSideDownCarl · Feb 14, 2020

RidTheKid said:
Now I know you are just arguing because you have nothing better to do. No date för Valentines?

Skickat från min SM-G930F via Tapatalk

By the way, knowing my wife died recently, you saying this shows what kind of human being you are.

You can't read and you make low life comments when you think you want to win an argument you clearly HAVE LOST OVER AND OVER. Just admit that the guys you said said Best Ever both just said they DID NOT and one even said you should know better.

RidTheKid · Feb 14, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
Or, here:

Does he say BEST EVER. Or does he say he thinks it is one of the best today?

You interpret different users posts very differently. I know NL is your buddy and that is crystal clear since you've never ever questioned a single post of his on here. You know what that does to your own image as a forum member?

Skickat från min SM-G930F via Tapatalk

RidTheKid · Feb 14, 2020

I know she did and my condolences for that.

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RidTheKid · Feb 14, 2020

Carl from now on you're only arguing with yourself. Good luck!

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UpSideDownCarl · Feb 14, 2020

RidTheKid said:
You interpret different users posts very differently. I know NL is your buddy and that is crystal clear since you've never ever questioned a single post of his on here. You know what that does to your own image as a forum member?

Skickat från min SM-G930F via Tapatalk

You do need to learn how to read.

What did NL mean here:

RidTheKid said:
Both piligrim and NL seems to think it, see first page, NL's post no 10. Even zeio chime in. You're the straw man atm Carl

NextLevel said:
You know better since I have posted extensively.

Darko Jorgic - best backhand ever?

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