New Butterfly rubber "Dignics 05" 2019

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Well, I'm just using information on butterfly's website, so there was a time he was using t05 hard on FH and d05 on the BH, and pro players have already got access to d05 for quite a long time, so I wouldn't be surprised he was using it for quite a while before switching to d09c. And even if he switch his FH, it doesn't contradict the comparison between t05, t05 hard, and d05, since he chose to keep t05 hard as FH and changed BH, and now there's a better one for his FH so he switched his FH and kept d05 as BH. Also you are saying tenergy 09c and dignics 09c , did you mistype one?

I'm saying it's a volatile situation - pros switch, it's hard to know why they do that, and even if we do know it's hard to say how much their reasoning applies to amateurs like ourselves. We can pick on Boll's specific case, or we could take Kenta (who is listed as D05 both sides), or back to Harimoto (D05/T05), and then Ueda (D05/D05). I don't know how we can just look at Boll's (or anyone's) play and work out what the differences between rubbers are - it's just not clear enough IMO.

For Boll, Butterfly say D05 and T05Hard, as of 1st Feb 2019 (telling that there's been no update since then). He's been spotted using T09C on FH in recent weeks. D09C has just appeared on the LARC, and I make no suggestion that he's using it (but it's an interesting thing to appear, no?)
 
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I'm saying it's a volatile situation - pros switch, it's hard to know why they do that, and even if we do know it's hard to say how much their reasoning applies to amateurs like ourselves. We can pick on Boll's specific case, or we could take Kenta (who is listed as D05 both sides), or back to Harimoto (D05/T05), and then Ueda (D05/D05). I don't know how we can just look at Boll's (or anyone's) play and work out what the differences between rubbers are - it's just not clear enough IMO.

For Boll, Butterfly say D05 and T05Hard, as of 1st Feb 2019 (telling that there's been no update since then). He's been spotted using T09C on FH in recent weeks. D09C has just appeared on the LARC, and I make no suggestion that he's using it (but it's an interesting thing to appear, no?)

I used Boll as a reference because he has been using t05 hard and t05 for quite a while and he switched his t05 to d05 and kept t05 hard for a while. All the other players I know that switched all switched from t05 or t80 to d05, didn't' see anyone switching from t05 hard, so that's why. And it is interesting to see d09c appearing, hopefully some interesting info will show up soon.
 
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I wonder what Tenergy 09c is. Spring sponge with new top sheet? Must have the same sponge or why would it be called Tenergy.

Pitchford is Dignics 05 BH.

That's it. I will definitely order a sheet of Dignics 05 since that's what Pitch uses.
Watch out for my new bh:cool:
Seriously, the power of marketing is strong. The news of Pitch using it will sell a lot of the stuff.
 
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T05's position was never objectively sacrosanct. Anyone who genuinely believes that is just fooling themselves. It's a great rubber, but no piece of equipment is one-size-fits-all, and table tennis has changed substantially since T05 was introduced. Even without that, there is always room for improvement and thinking that T05 (or anything) is some sort of peak which can never be exceeded is just an artificial ceiling people decide to introduce.

That said, Butterfly have engineered an aura around their products which leads to consumers thinking that their stuff is objectively better than everything else out there. They're the masters of it, and once they achieved their market position they protected it like a crocodile with its eggs, which is only sensible when your retail price is so high (even if I personally dislike it). So they have painted themselves into a corner somewhat, as your post demonstrates. If you convince the market that your product is the absolute best, how do you then convince that same market that something new is better without eroding the original base? You market it as a variation aimed at a different type of player (like T05H) perhaps.

BTY are in a delicate position, but I'm sure they know what they're doing. The dominant product position always gets eroded over time, and they've probably decided now is the time to strike to avoid that.

I dont think it's all that difficult for them.

You liked tenergy, the best and spinniest rubber ever made!? World renown and used by 90% of all pros... Well now for you even more advanced players, we are releasing brand new super ultra mega spinny rubbers that are even faster and provide higher top end playing!!!

...now who wants it??
 
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I dont think it's all that difficult for them.

You liked tenergy, the best and spinniest rubber ever made!? World renown and used by 90% of all pros... Well now for you even more advanced players, we are releasing brand new super ultra mega spinny rubbers that are even faster and provide higher top end playing!!!

...now who wants it??

Yeah, that does sound quite simple in the end. :D

I wonder less about the marketing (which is flashy but ultimately the same thing as always - more, better, more, better etc) and more about the target audience. Will Dignics grow the consumer base? Or will it just take sales away from Tenergy with most sales being people who are "upgrading" (in their own minds)?
 
Yeah, that does sound quite simple in the end. :D

I wonder less about the marketing (which is flashy but ultimately the same thing as always - more, better, more, better etc) and more about the target audience. Will Dignics grow the consumer base? Or will it just take sales away from Tenergy with most sales being people who are "upgrading" (in their own minds)?


Who knows, a matter of consumers psychology. Market statistics will show.
But its sure that at some point this "iFone-like" strategy will find negative consumer response.
 
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Back in Apr 2017, despite what Takako Oosawa said, Butterfly feared at first that Rozena would eat away Tenergy sales and therefore spent little efforts on marketing. To their surprise, it became such a hit domestically. Just this Feb, it dethroned the Fastarc G-1 once again since last doing so in Aug and Sep, 2017.

Butterfly did really well in Japan, Korea and Europe in 2017 and 2018, rivaling that of 2009 and 2010 before all the price hikes.

 5月に発刊した「別冊卓球グッズ」の中で、『ロゼナ』を特集した際、インタビューの中でタマスの大澤卓子社長は「『ロゼナ』は『テナジー』への橋渡しのラバーです。カニバリゼーション(自社製品が、他の自社製品を浸食してしまうこと)が起こる心配はしていません」と答えている。
 しかし、それは本音だったのだろうか。2015年2月に実勢価格8千円前後に値上げした『テナジー』(オープン価格)が一時的に落ち込んだあと、ようやく回復したタイミングでの『ロゼナ』投入にはリスクがあったはずだ。もし5000円(希望小売価格)という『ロゼナ』が『テナジー』を食ったら、本末転倒の戦略になる。『ロゼナ』が食いたかったのは、同様の価格帯の『G-1』『ラクザ』『V>15』『ヴェガ』『オメガ』というドイツ系のラバーだった。
 タマスの心配はそのプロモーションにも現れていた。過去の『テナジー』と比べても、発売当初の宣伝は控えめだった。明らかに『テナジー』に遠慮しながら、市場の様子を見ている感じだった。

 ところが、4月に発売して以来、売上げは好調で、7月、8月の中学・高校生の買い換えのタイミングで売れ方に拍車がかかった。その動向を見ながら、タマスは『ロゼナ』の宣伝に力を入れ始める。「『ロゼナ』を宣伝しても、『テナジー』を食わない」と感じたのではないか。
 
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The success of Rozena makes total sense. It's a really boring and bland rubber when you initially start using it but you learn to love it once you figure out how to properly take advantage of it's properties. Fantastic value for money.

That depends on how you define "value", obviously. At £43 a sheet it doesn't offer enough over the competition to justify the higher price IMO. At £25 it's excellent and undercuts the other options! Less than half the price of tenergy, and 1/3 of the price of dignics.
 
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That depends on how you define "value", obviously. At £43 a sheet it doesn't offer enough over the competition to justify the higher price IMO. At £25 it's excellent and undercuts the other options! Less than half the price of tenergy, and 1/3 of the price of dignics.

You can get it for 30USD/sheet from Asia and it plays a whole lot more similar to Tenergy than anything from ESN. Quite a few experienced Tenergy players have tried my setup and have been extremely surprised at how similar it plays (the T05 crowd usually likes it the least but the T64/80 players seem to like it).
 
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The success of Rozena makes total sense. It's a really boring and bland rubber when you initially start using it but you learn to love it once you figure out how to properly take advantage of it's properties. Fantastic value for money.

Thank you for your comment. One perspective that is interesting is the view that Butterfly has of Rozena, as a strategic point of the company. Is it intended to "compete" with Tenergy, or "compete" with the Tenergy alternatives, or is it viewed as a stand alone rubber at an attractive price point for those price sensitive? This question is posed because the buying public is making (at least implicitly) this rubber comparison analysis when they make their buying decision.

Also, Tenergy has heralded longevity. Little seems said on Rozena's longevity.

Thanks.
 
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You can get it for 30USD/sheet from Asia and it plays a whole lot more similar to Tenergy than anything from ESN. Quite a few experienced Tenergy players have tried my setup and have been extremely surprised at how similar it plays (the T05 crowd usually likes it the least but the T64/80 players seem to like it).

Yes, exactly. I think it hasn't had the immediate impact locally here in the UK because the retail price isn't keen enough (may as well buy Tenergy), and it's not easy for the casual browser to shop around due to Butterfly's regional price fixing policy. The few people I know who have tried Rozena are really happy with it.
 
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Little seems said on Rozena's longevity.

Rozena is a bit brittle. If you clip the table, the surface is a bit more likely to tear than some other rubbers.

That being said, as long as you don't graze the table corner with it it seems to hold out well. I glued Rozena on my blade last october, and it's holding up well. I wouldn't say it plays significantly different.

As I've been playing it, I've become to appreciate it more and more. I started out because I felt T05 had become too demanding for my while recovering from injury, but I actually think I'm preferring it over T05 now.

(Even so, NextLevel has me piked about Fastarc G-1; maybe, when my Rozenas are worn out...)
 
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Rozena is a bit brittle. If you clip the table, the surface is a bit more likely to tear than some other rubbers.

That being said, as long as you don't graze the table corner with it it seems to hold out well. I glued Rozena on my blade last october, and it's holding up well. I wouldn't say it plays significantly different.

I agree it is delicate. Ive had 3 sheets, one because my second time of using it i dropped my racket onto a table and it put a big split in the middle of it :-( the other two are holding up better but there is a crack in the forehand one i noticed the other day which i have no idea what from
 
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I think someone like Dan is in a far better position to give a review compared with the guy in the video.
Sure, totally agree.

I'd love to see Dan do a comparison between T05, T05Hard and Dignics 05.
Absolutely, that would be great. I also love comparisons, unfortunately there is often a bias towards the most recent product in such videos (not specifically in Dan's videos) but those are still nice to watch and the production is top notch.
 
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With all the respect to Dan, he is still very polite in his reviews and especially some of older videos are very much "oh this is good, this is fast, this holds the ball nicely" without any real criticism or putting into direct comparison with wide range of competing products. Yes, TTD produces one of the best reviews of TT equipment on the internet and I appreciate the hard work, all credit for that. However I don't remember any review which would give glimpse of "don't buy this (rather buy that)" impression. And I believe this is what many people are looking for... (judging from countless questions and also reviews on forums like this)
 
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Here's a little list of equipment that to me was disappointing:


  • Mark V, Sriver L, Speedy Spin, VariSpin: known friendlies in my youths, not doing it when returning (and playing with 40+ plastics)
  • BTY Tenergy 80, that limited my game to a very lopsided subset of techniques
  • BTY Innerforce ALC.S, a flimsy, a powerless dud of a blade bereft of any feeling to boot (in my hands anyway), so no redeeming qualities whatsoever
  • BTY Timo Boll ALC, a great blade to play with power and good feedback, but a handle so thin the blade becomes unusable (for me)
  • A pair of shoes of which the top tore away from the soles after a few hours of play, Donic I believe (I've also had good footwear from the good Doctor Nic, though)

As these things go, you don't keep on playing with equipment that falls very short. Writing a review takes some effort.

This imbalance is fundamental. I know my children have conversations around topics like "what's the worst movie/actor/song/... you've ever experienced?" and get something out of that... but even there, why waste time and energy on things not even worth remembering?

I actually prefer people to talk about the stuff they're enthused over, and tend to value the experiences shared from that motivation more than the (often quite gratuitous) negatives and all too easy dismissions. Like mine, above; many people obviously like and play very well with the rubbers and blades I mentioned.

If you look carefully, there is some between-the-lines criticism, British subdued style, in Dan and Toms videos. They make remarks about "having to adjust technique", and keep in the bits of footage in which they are hitting below their level, making quite a bit of unforced errors. These are the parts that to me speak the deepest truths in these reviews, this, and the occasional outlier in which Dan and Tom focus on an aspect of the game not usually covered in their review format but in which they show how something shines in that aspect. We've seen Can Akkuzu do very specific stuff (Takkyu's "STOP"), we've seen Dan and Tom stressing the limits of the short game in their T80 review; it's all out there, although it's not as in your face as an American youtuber would be.
 
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I think the key would be to point out what player styles rubbers/blades are better for. That way it could be more - this rubber doesn't suit me as I'm an 'X-type' of player but without coming across as - 'don't buy this rubber'.
Which I'm sure is a difficult balance Dan always has to play with his reviews. I certainly think the newer ones are really good and give a better rounded view of the products.
For example I was thinking about getting a sheet of T05H to try but after the review I don't think I will unless i try someone else's first. The Carbonado 145/45 190/90 comparisons i thought were good too.
 
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I think the key would be to point out what player styles rubbers/blades are better for. That way it could be more - this rubber doesn't suit me as I'm an 'X-type' of player but without coming across as - 'don't buy this rubber'.
Which I'm sure is a difficult balance Dan always has to play with his reviews. I certainly think the newer ones are really good and give a better rounded view of the products.
For example I was thinking about getting a sheet of T05H to try but after the review I don't think I will unless i try someone else's first. The Carbonado 145/45 190/90 comparisons i thought were good too.

This is clearly what they do. As yoass said you have to read between the lines. If you watch the Ice Cream video, I can hear Dan saying that one of the blades is too fast and likely unplayable for many players but maybe I am the only one hearing this as I am listening for it.
 
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