Waldner or Ma Long?

WiWa · Feb 10, 2012

harrybelafonte said:
how can you say he(ma long) is in the same catagory as any of the top chinese or even gatien, person shlager or samsonov, these have all won or been in world finals and olympic,,,surely wang liquin is the best of the modern era but guo is the best for me, four world finals in a row and a grand slam of world cup, world singles, world pro all in one year, he was probably unbeaten that year...guo is a legend....not ma ....he won nowt...wang hao won 5 chinese champs but was not allowed to win open tournaments just team event player...if wang liquin had won the olympics maybe he could be mentioned in the same league as waldner, but he choked in the semi s ..when unbeaten all year.. 3 world champs pretty good tho...even coming back from 3-1 and 7-1 down to beat ma lin... amazing...waldner came back from 18-6 to beat teng yi in the semi s in87.3-0,,, oh yes..

Wang Liqin didn't really choke, he damaged his rubber early in the match, so he had to change racket.

harrybelafonte · Feb 10, 2012

I think it was in 2004 I was talking about,, he played wang hao ,, admittedely wang hao got loads of luck,,, but wang normally beat him then.

harrybelafonte · Feb 10, 2012

also 2008 he played ma lin , fair enough he ripped his bat but he beats ma lin 9 out of 10 times...makes up for all ma s loses in finals to wang.. lol

WiWa · Feb 10, 2012

harrybelafonte said:
also 2008 he played ma lin , fair enough he ripped his bat but he beats ma lin 9 out of 10 times...makes up for all ma s loses in finals to wang.. lol

True, normally he beats both. But that is what bad luck can do

I think Wang Liqin can handle pressure very well, as he won several world titles.

phillypong · Feb 10, 2012

Mwit_Psychoror said:
Can't really tell. Ma Long is still too young. I don't quite like Ma Long style in fact. He rely too much on his consistency and he doesn't play a lot of improvisation. However, I'm sure he will improve very soon. Looking back at 2009, he has improve a lot, his serve his backhand and his tactical play are much better. Back then, he rarely won a point without rally, but now it's changed.

Waldner, on the other hand, won all the title. But he was in the period that China did not have really good players. At that time, Jiang Jialiang just retired, Liu Guoliang, Kong Linghui, Samsonov, Boll, Ma Lin, Wang liqin were still too young. The players who can compete waldner were only Persson and Getien.

In my opinion, at the moment, of course, Waldner is much greater as he already won every big title (except pro tour grand final) but in the future, I think Ma Long will be at least as great as him.

There was also Jean-Michel Saive (who beat Waldner several times and was world no 1 for something like 15 months ), he also beat as good as ALL the Chinese players at that time.

Anders · Feb 10, 2012

phillypong said:
There was also Jean-Michel Saive (who beat Waldner several times and was world no 1 for something like 15 months ), he also beat as good as ALL the Chinese players at that time.

yes, but just as Ma Long (ATM) he can't be called the best ever. Jean-Mi was great, but never won anythin big, so he is not considered in that league.

Matt Hetherington · Feb 10, 2012

phillypong said:
There was also Jean-Michel Saive (who beat Waldner several times and was world no 1 for something like 15 months ), he also beat as good as ALL the Chinese players at that time.

Nah Jean-Mi won 2 silvers and a gold at Euro champs and won a silver at both the WTTC and the World Cup but putting him in the same category as Waldner is difficult. Saive is a legend and a fighter but he's not Waldner

Anders · Feb 10, 2012

PingPongPom said:
Nah Jean-Mi won 2 silvers and a gold at Euro champs and won a silver at both the WTTC and the World Cup but putting him in the same category as Waldner is difficult. Saive is a legend and a fighter but he's not Waldner

That is what I meant to say

UpSideDownCarl · Feb 10, 2012

ministry of silly serves said:
walder is greater but if ma long and waldner both met at thier primes ma long would eat him for breakfast

Okay, since people are trying to do this, even though you really cannot, here goes. You have to look at their strengths and weaknesses. Ma Long's 3rd ball attacks and power are way better then Waldner's. He is an all out attacker. His major weakness lies in the mental game. Tactics, not so good. Adjusting to tactics, not so good. Defense acceptable but not so good. Waldner's major weakness is his power. He was not a power player. He was an allround player. However, his strengths are Ma Long's weaknesses. He is great at in game tactics and adjusting. He is great at using his opponent's power against them. He is great on defense and turning defense into offense.

In the most recent World Championships Ma Long was rolling through Wang Hao and Wang Hao changed tactics, slowed down the game, and kept Ma Long from launching his attacks and Ma Long fell apart. Not so good. In matches against players like Seiya Kishikawa who Ma Long has absolutely no business losing against, he has lost badly. Ma Long struggles against Bojan Tokic although I doubt any other player on the Chinese National Team would. It is a style and tactics issue that Ma Long has not fully sorted out.

As was already stated, in 2009, a fat, slow, almost immobile J. O. Waldner with a beer belly and a bad back was able to give Ma Long way more trouble than he should have.

In his prime, Waldner would have made Ma Long pay dearly for his third ball attacks and how out of position he often is after them. Once past the first attack Waldner would have have a huge edge when he was younger because of how good he was at moving the ball around and using the other person's force against them in many ways.

I think this would be a mismatch and Ma Long would not have the upper hand.

harrybelafonte · Feb 11, 2012

Eduardo said:

take 15 years of waldner and he would have tortured ma,,,

harrybelafonte · Feb 11, 2012

Carl Horowitz said:
Okay, since people are trying to do this, even though you really cannot, here goes. You have to look at their strengths and weaknesses. Ma Long's 3rd ball attacks and power are way better then Waldner's. He is an all out attacker. His major weakness lies in the mental game. Tactics, not so good. Adjusting to tactics, not so good. Defense acceptable but not so good. Waldner's major weakness is his power. He was not a power player. He was an allround player. However, his strengths are Ma Long's weaknesses. He is great at in game tactics and adjusting. He is great at using his opponent's power against them. He is great on defense and turning defense into offense.

In the most recent World Championships Ma Long was rolling through Wang Hao and Wang Hao changed tactics, slowed down the game, and kept Ma Long from launching his attacks and Ma Long fell apart. Not so good. In matches against players like Seiya Kishikawa who Ma Long has absolutely no business losing against, he has lost badly. Ma Long struggles against Bojan Tokic although I doubt any other player on the Chinese National Team would. It is a style and tactics issue that Ma Long has not fully sorted out.

As was already stated, in 2009, a fat, slow, almost immobile J. O. Waldner with a beer belly and a bad back was able to give Ma Long way more trouble than he should have.

In his prime, Waldner would have made Ma Long pay dearly for his third ball attacks and how out of position he often is after them. Once past the first attack Waldner would have have a huge edge when he was younger because of how good he was at moving the ball around and using the other person's force against them in many ways.

I think this would be a mismatch and Ma Long would not have the upper hand.

excellent ,, good points... but waldners3rd ball after serve is immense ,especially in big events..

UpSideDownCarl · Feb 11, 2012

harrybelafonte said:
excellent ,, good points... but waldners3rd ball after serve is immense ,especially in big events..

I will not argue with that. I did not say Waldner had a bad third ball attack. I said that his biggest weakness was power. Not too much of a weakness when you have placement.

And third ball attacks are as much about timing and placement and if you have timing and placement, your third ball attack should have more than enough power. But when going loop to loop you can see Waldner's loops are not as fast as some although they have a lot of spin. The pace and power of his off the table loops did not matter much though.

UpSideDownCarl · Feb 11, 2012

Eduardo said:

harrybelafonte said:
take 15 years of waldner and he would have tortured ma,,,

You can see that Waldner is able to keep Ma Long off balance and Ma Long is having trouble telling where the next ball is going to go and Waldner keeps catching him in awkward positions.

You can also see that when Ma Long does get off a good shot, Waldner is often just watching it, not even bothering to move for it.

ttmonster · Feb 11, 2012

Carl .. I guess there was another thread where I had tried to make similar points ... but you have put them more succinctly ........ here is another way to put things ... with great players .. its not just about technique, power or placement .. most of them would square off on weaknesses and strength if you make head to head comparisons .. its also about "intangibles" ......... case in point ... Ma Lin winning against Jun today .. Jun had no business letting Ma come back when he was down in the dumps .. and just when Ma started his Houdini act ... Jun's game fell apart .... its in this department that Waldner is an overwhelming favourite against Ma Long.... may be ... just may be LGL in the coaches chair could make some difference ... but like LGL said in his interview Waldner has so many variations , it needs a very keen game sense and intelligence ... and now an interesting incident to make this point further .....
I had the fortune of playing as a doubles partner with a current member of the US Men's team in my club .... I was telling him that Ma Long is about to break WLQs record , he said there is a big chance he will choke because I have seen him choke in WTTC rotterdam , was present there as a player when he lost to Wang Hao .... and he was right ..... so my point is .. yes Waldner at his prime might lose to him in pro tour finals but in big games he will be an overwhelming fav. and of course he is the greater player as of now , if Ma is able to grow up and improve his intangibles , his mental acuteness ( which I very much doubt because he has been there at the top for long ) he might be able to win some big titles ........... but the sad part is even then he will not able to scale Waldner's greatness because he cannot have his longevity and his accomplishment of giving so many generations of top players trouble ... its not for nothing LGL says that even though the professors have written theses on waldner's playing style when you actually play him its a different ball game ...

UpSideDownCarl · Feb 11, 2012

ttmonster said:
Carl .. I guess there was another thread where I had tried to make similar points ... but you have put them more succinctly ........ here is another way to put things ... with great players .. its not just about technique, power or placement .. most of them would square off on weaknesses and strength if you make head to head comparisons .. its also about "intangibles" ......... case in point ... Ma Lin winning against Jun today .. Jun had no business letting Ma come back when he was down in the dumps .. and just when Ma started his Houdini act ... Jun's game fell apart .... its in this department that Waldner is an overwhelming favourite against Ma Long.... may be ... just may be LGL in the coaches chair could make some difference ... but like LGL said in his interview Waldner has so many variations , it needs a very keen game sense and intelligence ... and now an interesting incident to make this point further .....
I had the fortune of playing as a doubles partner with a current member of the US Men's team in my club .... I was telling him that Ma Long is about to break WLQs record , he said there is a big chance he will choke because I have seen him choke in WTTC rotterdam , was present there as a player when he lost to Wang Hao .... and he was right ..... so my point is .. yes Waldner at his prime might lose to him in pro tour finals but in big games he will be an overwhelming fav. and of course he is the greater player as of now , if Ma is able to grow up and improve his intangibles , his mental acuteness ( which I very much doubt because he has been there at the top for long ) he might be able to win some big titles ........... but the sad part is even then he will not able to scale Waldner's greatness because he cannot have his longevity and his accomplishment of giving so many generations of top players trouble ... its not for nothing LGL says that even though the professors have written theses on waldner's playing style when you actually play him its a different ball game ...

Great post ttmonster.

You have added additional information that is top notch. The creativity, the intangibles, the mental toughness in the big tournaments.

azlan · Feb 11, 2012

I just think TT is is such a fast game nowadays, one needs to have mental toughness. Not that other sports doesn't need it, but in TT it's invaluable. Waldner was so relax, and that's what great players do. They're able to absorb pressures that would leave most players weak in the knees. The way he plays his shots nonchalantly was just ridiculous. Looking at Waldner playing, no one would ever guessed that TT is a difficult sport. But, you and I know that it's not true at all.

Yeah, his slow now, and he lacks the brute power that some of the top players have now, but it just shows in TT, power is definitely not everything.

ttmonster · Feb 11, 2012

Carl Horowitz said:
Great post ttmonster. You have added additional information that is top notch. The creativity, the intangibles, the mental toughness in the big tournaments.

Thanks Carl !!

harrybelafonte · Feb 11, 2012

Brilliant posts guys.. sums it up,, maybe its hard for younger fans to appreciate just how good this guy was,,, watch a few more you tube s to discover how no one ,,no one has the artistry, subtlety and sheer poetry of winning points....as the incomparable waldner,,,,The great thing is that a lot of sheer skillfull, brilliant sportpeople have a flaky or questionable temperment,, the exact opposite is true of j,o... brilliant.

Matt Hetherington · Feb 11, 2012

It's always interesting to see a good debate though and I have really enjoyed all of the points brought up (especially in Waldner's favour)

I knew it would be an edgy topic to start with, many factors out of balance for comparison, nevertheless a fun topic

harrybelafonte · Feb 11, 2012

Maybe a debate about guo v waldner, would be a lot closer in my mind..

Waldner or Ma Long?

Who is Greatest?

JO Waldner

Ma Long

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