Best Butterfly ZLC blade

BeGo · May 4, 2017

Shuki said:
you're going to get some arguments on your analysis [emoji14]

innerforce layer alc - chopper/driver
innerforce alc - non looper

difference between these is .1mm thickness.
I also only know loopers that play the "non looper" blade. I better let him know he's using it wrong since he's 2000. It's probably holding him back!

Small note first,

innerforce layer alc - chop and drive style
innerforce alc - non looping style

Then,

Agree that some result are questionable, even for myself. I also take Me factor into account, that is why I put imho tag in my answers. [emoji28]

But, either way,

Post His responses here, Shuki,when available. Looking forward for it. [emoji6]

Sent from my i5E using Tapatalk

Shuki · May 4, 2017

BeGo said:
Small note first,

innerforce layer alc - chop and drive style
innerforce alc - non looping style

Then,

Agree that some result are questionable, even for myself. I also take Me factor into account, that is why I put imho tag in my answers. [emoji28]

But, either way,

Post His responses here, Shuki,when available. Looking forward for it. [emoji6]

Sent from my i5E using Tapatalk

I agree some results are questionable. Me factor would have my list set up very differently. I've only tried 36/71 of those blades. So me being less experienced is probably a big part of me disagreeing.

Jaffar Lone · May 4, 2017

You have made an interesting point Carl..===> most pros use blades that are of a moderate speed.

I guess it depends on the player.. currently i am coached by a professional player who uses the Schlager carbon, one of the fastest blades that i have known. Prior to that i was coached by a professional who uses the hurricane WL, a 5 ply all wood blade.

On your other point, ==> TB ALC, Viscaria, those are not very fast.

I don't know if its just me, but when i tried practicing with these two blades they felt very stiff and fast.. most of my strokes were missing their 'landing area' so to speak.. Perhaps a better argument could be that the Boll ALC and the Viscaria are not as fast as, say the Photino or the Amultart.

UpSideDownCarl · May 4, 2017

Jaffar Lone said:
You have made an interesting point Carl..===> most pros use blades that are of a moderate speed.

I guess it depends on the player.. currently i am coached by a professional player who uses the Schlager carbon, one of the fastest blades that i have known. Prior to that i was coached by a professional who uses the hurricane WL, a 5 ply all wood blade.

On your other point, ==> TB ALC, Viscaria, those are not very fast.

I don't know if its just me, but when i tried practicing with these two blades they felt very stiff and fast.. most of my strokes were missing their 'landing area' so to speak.. Perhaps a better argument could be that the Boll ALC and the Viscaria are not as fast as, say the Photino or the Amultart.

The Viscaria and TB ALC may be faster than either of us should use. But they really are not super fast. They are on the moderate side.

I like my 5 ply all wood blade. I like Off-. I don't need faster. But the Viscaria is a pretty manageable speed. And someone who has the intelligence to use a 5 ply all wood blade may be able to feel why a Viscaria is not really so recommendable for a developing player.

SilentRain · May 4, 2017

I agree with Carl, the TB ALC, Viscaria and even the HL 5 has moderate speed compared to other Carbon blades. But they are fast enough with sufficient kill potential. What makes these blades popular is the control factor. Fast enough to kill, slow enough to control and thus prone to less unforced errors.

Thats why im currently using the HL 5 eventhou i much prefer my JM ZLC blade overall. With my current skill level Im still making unforced errors with the ZLC which is why i went down to HL5 where i could control it. Once I improve more I intend to move back to JM ZLC. At my current progress I will probably stick to HL5 for another year before making the transition.

Jaffar Lone · May 4, 2017

Aside from this, what i felt was one drawback or con of using an All-wood blade is that it takes its toll on your elbows. Especially if you tend to loop and smash during the rallies. Using a carbon blade might reduce this risk perhaps.

Zaid323918 · May 4, 2017

Jaffar Lone said:
Aside from this, what i felt was one drawback or con of using an All-wood blade is that it takes its toll on your elbows. Especially if you tend to loop and smash during the rallies. Using a carbon blade might reduce this risk perhaps.

Tell me about it. I suffered from tennis elbow for over a month twice. I thought it was my technique but it turns out that Stiga Premade Rackets should not be used with a poly-ball. Ever since then I've used combos that were in the OFF- to OFF+ range. My current combo is probably around OFF-. (The Viscaria I that I have has MX-P on both sides and it's only a tad faster but I don't want to use it cuz it's harder to control especially close to the table for my skill level)

Zaid323918 · May 4, 2017

UpSideDownCarl said:
The Viscaria and TB ALC may be faster than either of us should use. But they really are not super fast. They are on the moderate side.

I like my 5 ply all wood blade. I like Off-. I don't need faster. But the Viscaria is a pretty manageable speed. And someone who has the intelligence to use a 5 ply all wood blade may be able to feel why a Viscaria is not really so recommendable for a developing player.

How would you compare the speed of your OSP to the Stiga Infinity? (just wondering)

UpSideDownCarl · May 4, 2017

Zaid323918 said:
How would you compare the speed of your OSP to the Stiga Infinity? (just wondering)

Not too different. If the Infinity and the V+ are the same weight the Infinity will be a certain amount faster.

But I don't think that is the essential issue to focus on. The V+ is considerably softer and has a lot more grab and dwell time so it helps you generate more spin.

Infinity has a couple of processes done to it. "VPS" is a heat treatment done to the middle ply that makes the blade feel crisper because it dries out the wood but it also makes the rebound faster so it reduces dwell time. "Diamond Touch" is a substance applied to the surface of the top ply that makes it HARDER. This also reduces dwell time and makes it harder to spin the ball.

A good player will be able to spin the ball regardless of these things. Note top players who use a blade with a Koto top ply are using a blade with a harder surface and their technique is good enough to spin the heck out of the ball anyway. But for someone learning, these features make it harder to learn to hold the ball on the blade face and get more spin.

What they do is make the blade feel crisper and more alive. But they sacrifice dwell time. Stiga has been playing around with different methods for doing this same thing for years and years. CR is another hardening method. NCT is another coating that makes the surface harder.

These things are "good" for Stiga's marketing strategy because they get to say the treatments make the blade faster, and with something like VPS they could also say it makes the blade lighter. But it is worth looking at what you give up. I personally like Stiga's most basic blades better than the "new technology" ones that do nothing but harden the blade.

So:

1) Stiga Allround Evolution
2) Stiga Offensive Classic
3) Stiga Tube Allround
4) Stiga Energy Wood
5) Stiga Clipper Classic

Are really blades worth looking at for the simplicity of their design.

However, Stiga and most companies make the handles of their blades HOLLOW (yes, even the ones that don't look hollow) so that they can say the blades weigh less. That is also marketing.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Zaid323918 · May 4, 2017

UpSideDownCarl said:
Not too different. If the Infinity and the V+ are the same weight the Infinity will be a certain amount faster.

But I don't think that is the essential issue to focus on. The V+ is considerably softer and has a lot more grab and dwell time so it helps you generate more spin.

Infinity has a couple of processes done to it. "VPS" is a heat treatment done to the middle ply that makes the blade feel crisper because it dries out the wood but it also makes the rebound faster so it reduces dwell time. "Diamond Touch" is a substance applied to the surface of the top ply that makes it HARDER. This also reduces dwell time and makes it harder to spin the ball.

A good player will be able to spin the ball regardless of these things. Note top players who use a blade with a Koto top ply are using a blade with a harder surface and their technique is good enough to spin the heck out of the ball anyway. But for someone learning, these features make it harder to learn to hold the ball on the blade face and get more spin.

What they do is make the blade feel crisper and more alive. But they sacrifice dwell time. Stiga has been playing around with different methods for doing this same thing for years and years. CR is another hardening method. NCT is another coating that makes the surface harder.

These things are "good" for Stiga's marketing strategy because they get to say the treatments make the blade faster, and with something like VPS they could also say it makes the blade lighter. But it is worth looking at what you give up. I personally like Stiga's most basic blades better than the "new technology" ones that do nothing but harden the blade.

So:

1) Stiga Allround Evolution
2) Stiga Offensive Classic
3) Stiga Tube Allround
4) Stiga Energy Wood
5) Stiga Clipper Classic

Are really blades worth looking at for the simplicity of their design.

However, Stiga and most companies make the handles of their blades HOLLOW (yes, even the ones that don't look hollow) so that they can say the blades weigh less. That is also marketing.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

That's nice to know but I am happy with the VPS anyway. It gets the job done and for my level it's fine.

UpSideDownCarl · May 4, 2017

Zaid323918 said:
That's nice to know but I am happy with the VPS anyway. It gets the job done and for my level it's fine.

Yep. It is a pretty decent blade. Nothing wrong with it.

I was just explaining that the difference between the V+ and the Infinity that is most noteworthy is that the V+ is softer so it helps you spin the ball much more.

People who are used to harder blades often find it too soft.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Xylit · May 4, 2017

Buy the most expensive blade and you automatically have the best. If you don't believe me, read the blade manufatcuter's descriptions, that will confirm it

Jaffar Lone · May 4, 2017

Not certain if that works for everyone..one of my former coaches told me a while ago, that the most expensive equipment is mainly for increasing business and marketing... for the purists the moderate cost equipment works fine.
Then again the term 'best' is not the same for all... as carl already pointed out earlier in this thread.

UpSideDownCarl · May 4, 2017

Xylit said:
Buy the most expensive blade and you automatically have the best. If you don't believe me, read the blade manufatcuter's descriptions, that will confirm it

Hahahaha. Good one.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

UpSideDownCarl · May 4, 2017

A few more notes and for you Zaid:

1) If your intention is to find out about equipment, there is nothing wrong with asking all these questions that seem to be occupying your mental space. However, asking people if you can try their equipment and seeing what you feel is a better method for understanding equipment.

2) Equipment can be fun. Nothing wrong with EJing or asking questions. But how you improve is TRAINING, PRACTICE and PLAYING THE GAME.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Zaid323918 · May 4, 2017

UpSideDownCarl said:
A few more notes and for you Zaid:

1) If your intention is to find out about equipment, there is nothing wrong with asking all these questions that seem to be occupying your mental space. However, asking people if you can try their equipment and seeing what you feel is a better method for understanding equipment.

2) Equipment can be fun. Nothing wrong with EJing or asking questions. But how you improve is TRAINING, PRACTICE and PLAYING THE GAME.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

I've tried the equipment of everyone I played with. I'm just curious about this stuff. I know equipment doesn't make you improve. If anything it'll make you worse. Most of the time I was asking these type of questions I never had the equipment or was planning on getting it.

laistrogian · May 5, 2017

Zaid323918 said:
I've tried the equipment of everyone I played with. I'm just curious about this stuff. I know equipment doesn't make you improve. If anything it'll make you worse. Most of the time I was asking these type of questions I never had the equipment or was planning on getting it.

In the end, just use something that you like to use unless it completely breaks your game. My coach knows I like to switch equipments, he knows I tend to hit balls too hard for me to return at times partly because of my equipment but he just told me it's fine to rely on equipments.

I tried using 5 ply all wood until 2 months later I just can't get used to the small sweetspot. I'm not gonna force myself use it for a year to get used to small sweetspot while hating myself doing it. Bear in mind I started with Schlager carbon, a brick blade with the whole face of the blade as sweetspot because of the stiff carbon

Zaid323918 · May 5, 2017

laistrogian said:
In the end, just use something that you like to use unless it completely breaks your game. My coach knows I like to switch equipments, he knows I tend to hit balls too hard for me to return at times partly because of my equipment but he just told me it's fine to rely on equipments.

I tried using 5 ply all wood until 2 months later I just can't get used to the small sweetspot. I'm not gonna force myself use it for a year to get used to small sweetspot while hating myself doing it. Bear in mind I started with Schlager carbon, a brick blade with the whole face of the blade as sweetspot because of the stiff carbon

Oh I started off with a 7 ply wood core OFF blade with speed glued Juic Driva Smash Ultima. That combo was a little faster than my current one but the control was actually better cause it was limba but sadly the blade broke

Jaffar Lone · May 5, 2017

If you do not properly warmup for each table tennis session it could end up in a stiff elbow, also stretching after the session is important.

I had the golfer's elbow syndrome back in may of last year, did rehab and switched to DHS PG9 for more speed. I ended up switching back to my original blade the DHS hurricane WL as the PG9 was way too fast for me..

Lesson learned: If you are playing well with a 5-ply blade, do not switch to a 7-ply blade. And always pay attention to your elbows and knees.

Zaid323918 said:
Tell me about it. I suffered from tennis elbow for over a month twice. I thought it was my technique but it turns out that Stiga Premade Rackets should not be used with a poly-ball. Ever since then I've used combos that were in the OFF- to OFF+ range. My current combo is probably around OFF-. (The Viscaria I that I have has MX-P on both sides and it's only a tad faster but I don't want to use it cuz it's harder to control especially close to the table for my skill level)

cHroMe · Apr 12, 2019

It seems I have non chopper blade. Also my rubbers are non chopper too

. I am curious about Amultart ZLC and Garaydia ZLC and Garaydia ALC and Liu Shiwen ZLF...

Best Butterfly ZLC blade

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