Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

Boogar said:

I agree with you that having less different serves makes it easier for you to know all the kinds of balls that can come back from it. So you can prepare better for your third ball attack.
Then on the other hand pros have such deceptive serves that its very hard to distinguish those.
That you can only see them doing one or two serves speaks for their great deception.
The serve might look the same but pros have such amazing control over their serve that they can vary the amount of spin put on the ball from 0%,10%,20%...up to 100% with the same motion. And even put on different spins with different contact points of the swing.

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I am not talking bout the degree/level of spin in one serve, but i am talking about the variety of serves, like topspin serve, side-spin, non spin, backspin, or backhand style serve, pendulum serve,...etc, what i see from those top players and i mentioned top 3-4 that it is one kind of serve and they just control the level of spin in it or placement, but not different making kind of serves.

Boogar said:

Why should they use different serving motions when they can generate different kind of spins with the same motion?
For example Ma Long uses a variety of serves. He Does backhand serves with back and topspin mixed with side spin. Pendulum serves with all spins and even reverse pendulum serves. Also no spin serves, fast ones, long ones, short one slow one etc etc etc and sometimes even reverse backhand serves. I don't get your point.

It may look like they are all the same serve for the untrained eye.

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It is not about they can do it or not, it is question about why they don't do different kind of serves when they can.

And i know if i do a serve with different kind of spins it is an advantage, and that is another story, but sometimes it is not about generating different spin for same motion, it is about changing the serve itself, i played with some higher level players, some of them keep doing same serve the whole entire game with that so heavy spin with it, others just try to do vary serves either with or without spin, to different placement, so who is right or wrong or who is better? both playing good and both know what they are doing, but i am sure each of them know how to do different kind of serves, but why some keep doing one the same and the other keep changing the serve?

I don't ask to get the truth, everyone is free to do whatever serves, but i was hoping if someone really knows what's going on.

Maybe you are an expert in serves, and i am not, but watching those 2 games i see they are focusing on 2 serves mostly, i mean in the entire games i don't see them changing the serves so many times from 2 types, both players too not only Ma Long, look at ZJK serves too, but maybe you see different than how i see and i don't understand it then i am very sorry and i apologize.

Boogar said:

So in the first two games i see sidespin serves with both sidespins, sidetop, side back, no spin and pure backspin serves.

That are pretty much all the spins beside corkscrew. Also they vary placement and speed.

Its very hard to gauge the spin from the serve motion so look at how they recieve it, with what bat angle, how much force do they use.

Ah I just love this game

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Cool, so those are the serves they use.

So, even top players could have hard time returning some serves if done properly, now how can we be better than those top players then to return all the serves if the opponents doing all those sorts of serves you mentioned?

Tareq, you are way too high level of a player! How can you think so smart?! good luck with you professional table tennis career! Thank you so much for your amazing table tennis knowledge!

JeffM said:

You can get a rebound board, or fold up table in half, or play with a robot.

It is not the same as playing against a real person, but it is better than not playing. In the end, it all comes down to how much you want to play. You can even try get the Kuka robot that played against Timo Boll if you can

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I didn't know about any robot who can assist in playing table tennis. Really, is that true? Can I get a robot for playing T.T.? I think you are joking. Anyways, I like your first part of the answer. I will see what I can do. Thanks for the suggestion.

Shuki said:

Tareq, you are way too high level of a player! How can you think so smart?! good luck with you professional table tennis career! Thank you so much for your amazing table tennis knowledge!

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No i am not a too high level player or even just high or semi pro, good luck for you!

wtachetna said:

I didn't know about any robot who can assist in playing table tennis. Really, is that true? Can I get a robot for playing T.T.? I think you are joking. Anyways, I like your first part of the answer. I will see what I can do. Thanks for the suggestion.

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Here:


This next one is clearly exaggerating things for the add but the robot exists.


So, yes, there are table tennis robots.

Wish to afford this BTY Amicus, maybe next year if i can have enough money and not affecting coaching cost.

Shuki said:

Tareq, you are way too high level of a player! How can you think so smart?! good luck with you professional table tennis career! Thank you so much for your amazing table tennis knowledge!

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For my money, one of the best posts ever. Can't think of a better or more complete reply.


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Archosaurus said:

@UpSideDownCarl

I will practice some and then video.

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For you Archo:

1) The Ball Bounce:


2) Spin Contact Practice #1


Notice the contact is delicate. These are not serves. That is just me practicing brushing under the ball. Another key element to notice is, the ball comes off behind the racket. The racket pulls past the ball and is ahead of the ball after contact.

3) Spin Contact Practice #2


Doing this kind of thing over and over can help you with how to brush under the ball. And you might be able to see, on this one I am contacting the in front of the ball from under.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Today I came across a confusing emotion. Had an awesome match with someone who's better than me and their style just matches up well. Lost that match but didn't care since I felt I played well. But this person goes back to their country tomorrow. First and last time I'll play them. No rematch ever available in the future to look forward to.

bummed out but also happy/excited for such a fun match. I think the mix of these two emotions just created frustration =\

@UpSideDownCarl

Thanks for the reference. I'll take a look at those in detail to see what's going on and try my hand at it.

Archosaurus said:

@UpSideDownCarl

Thanks for the reference. I'll take a look at those in detail to see what's going on and try my hand at it.

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A few things you can see that are worthwhile to note are:

1) In the 1st Spin Contact Practice video, the first and third the ball goes gently up and forward as my racket pulls past. That is actually what you are looking for to practice the contact. But on the second one, the ball projects straight forward and is faster, but it still comes off the rubber as the racket is accelerating past the ball. That one is really more like what I do on a serve. That one is nailed and has more spin. But for practicing, aiming for what happens in the first and second one is more useful to get the touch.

2) In the 2nd Spin Contact Practice video, the first and third one are like the first and third in the 1st video. The second one, the ball slips off the rubber a little but not fully so I still spin the ball enough for it to come back to me. If you were trying for that, it would be more likely that you would get the contact from 1 and 3 of either Spin Contact video. And that is what, at least in my opinion, you need to practice to develop that refined contact. So an exaggerated brush, for now, would be worth while.

3) In all three videos, you should be able to see how stable the blade face of my racket is while the ball is in contact with my racket.

Last thing, this is more for everyone, if you look at the contact of the first video for DWELL TIME, and you look at the contact in the second and third video for how I hold the ball on the rubber for a tiny bit longer, you may be able to see it. My money says that if we could put this video on super slow motion, you would be able to see it much more fully.

If I get a chance, later, I will try to film a real serve from me and maybe from Mark Croitoroo (who I will train with again today! YAYYYYYYY!!!!!) I will. Because that contact would be REALLY interesting to compare to the first video.


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UpSideDownCarl said:

If I get a chance, later, I will try to film a real serve from me and maybe from Mark Croitoroo (who I will train with again today! YAYYYYYYY!!!!!) I will. Because that contact would be REALLY interesting to compare to the first video.


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Hey, enjoy yourself and have a lot of fun. Looking forward to the vid...
[Emoji2]

BTW: when you first mentioned him a while ago, i haven't heard of his name before and i thought it almost sounded as if you just made up that name. Mark CroitoROO sounded to me like a socceROO from the land of the kangaROO...
[Emoji12]
But a short google search helped me out...
Sounds like some quality practice time today.
[Emoji106]

TareqPhoto said:

I am not talking bout the degree/level of spin in one serve, but i am talking about the variety of serves, like topspin serve, side-spin, non spin, backspin, or backhand style serve, pendulum serve,...etc, what i see from those top players and i mentioned top 3-4 that it is one kind of serve and they just control the level of spin in it or placement, but not different making kind of serves.

Click to expand...

Boogar said:

Why should they use different serving motions when they can generate different kind of spins with the same motion?
For example Ma Long uses a variety of serves. He Does backhand serves with back and topspin mixed with side spin. Pendulum serves with all spins and even reverse pendulum serves. Also no spin serves, fast ones, long ones, short one slow one etc etc etc and sometimes even reverse backhand serves. I don't get your point.

It may look like they are all the same serve for the untrained eye.

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Tareq, see it's all about deceiptiveness here.
If you use a different kind of serve with different kind of spin, a smart and experienced opponent will find out quickly and the whole effect of the serve will be out the window.

Whereas if you use the same kind of motion but vary the spin it will be much more difficult to read 'cause everything happens in a split second and you have to observe closely.

Maybe practicing with a higher level player will show you what we're trying to explain to you.

When we had Thomas Keinath coaching us, in the end of the practice session he let everyone receive five serves. If one didn't observe closely one could easily get fooled by this, 'cause he used five times nearly the same motion but each time it had different spin.
Side-top spin
Side-back spin
Pure side spin one way
Pure side spin the other way
Pure back spin.
And even higher level players sometimes fail to read the spin properly.

Timo Boll once said after he played against Waldner that sometimes all he could do was guess, 'cause he was unable to read it properly.

Same thing was said about Werner Schlager's serves.
Even high level players could sometimes only guess....

And exactly THIS is the reason why those top level players mostly use the same looking motion, 'cause the serves look the same even though they're NOT!

Shuki said:

Tareq, you are way too high level of a player! How can you think so smart?! good luck with you professional table tennis career! Thank you so much for your amazing table tennis knowledge!

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The amount of sarcasm in this post is unrivaled.
[Emoji1]

Suga D said:

Hey, enjoy yourself and have a lot of fun. Looking forward to the vid...
[Emoji2]

BTW: when you first mentioned him a while ago, i haven't heard of his name before and i thought it almost sounded as if you just made up that name. Mark CroitoROO sounded to me like a socceROO from the land of the kangaROO...
[Emoji12]
But a short google search helped me out...
Sounds like some quality practice time today.
[Emoji106]

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Mark is awesome. His last USATT rating was about 2350 but since then he spent a year traveling to great coaches in California, Europe and China and his level was probably close to 2500 if not over it before he was forced to stop playing because of a weird shoulder injury. It is getting better. But he still can't play with it so he is learning to play lefty and I would say he is probably 1800-1900 lefty. He has learned pretty fast. Crazy.

But the best part of training with him is that he is a natural teacher and his eye for the game is really at 2500 maybe higher. So, he pinpoints things for me to correct and focus on even while we are training and each helping the other improve. I feel pretty lucky to get to train with him as often as I do.



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Suga D said:

And exactly THIS is the reason why those top level players mostly use the same looking motion, 'cause the serves look the same even though they're NOT!

The amount of sarcasm in this post is unrivaled.
[Emoji1]

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I was going to leave the subject of serving out because the level of hubris coupled with a complete lack of understanding of the subtleties of the serve and receive game and an inability to see and read spin that causes Tareq to claim he is better than 2400 level players like Mishel and Mark or even 2200 level players like Rich and Philippe, has me thinking that Shuki's post is the best possible reply to someone who is delusional.

However, this is great information about serving for everyone else. So why deprive people who want to learn of this great information. Thanks Suga D.

In this video, the great Werner Schlager explains how top level players touch different parts of the ball with the same serve motion to create completely different serves that, to the inexperienced observer, look exactly the same. Even though they are completely different.


So, with the motion of a pendulum serve you can create:

1) backspin
2) varying degrees of sidespin with backspin
3) topspin
4) varying degrees of sidespin with topspin
5) no spin

Same thing with a reverse pendulum, a hook, a punch or a tomahawk serve.

Since the varying angles of the axis of spin on the side/back and side/top serves is UNLIMITED, one serve motion with subtle changes of the contact point, can produce an unlimited number of different serves.

And then someone who doesn't know the game says, "how come they use the same serve every time!"

At SPiN where most of the people who play there are recreational players, I am often asked, "why would you serve easy serves like that?" When they see me practicing short serves.

So, then I get them to try and receive the serves. And when one goes straight down and hits the table, and the next flies left, and the next flies right and the next pops up and flies 5-6 feet off the table, they still don't fully understand that there were different serves. It's sort of like some mysterious form of magic caused the ball to do those things.


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