Which long pips

Basmundo said:

Is there a rubber available that is dangerous for opponents while not being to much of a problem to play with? Reading around the subject, it would seem that Grass D.Tecs is one of the best rubbers for giving problems for opponents but it is difficult to control when using it.

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NO! There are no dangerous rubbers. There are only rubbers people are not use to playing against. There are also rubber that you are not use to playing with.
I have played against Grass D.Tecs. I guy at the club came in with Gras D, Tecs and no one would play with him but me. Since I also was experienced at playing with LP I know how to play against LP. To play against LP 0X one must keep track of what they did the last stroke. If I put top spin on the last ball then I know it will come back with bottom spin so I would push unless it was high. The next ball that came back after the push has top spin. I could attack that. Also, hitting balls to the LP players BH corner presents problems for him. A long return from LPs is slow and give plenty of time to step around to loop with my FH even with the back spin. It is no different than looping a chopped ball.

My point is that there is no magic. I will guarantee you that you will make plenty of unforced errors with LP that you would have made with inverted until you learn how to play with LP. These unforced errors will outnumber the errors the opponents make until you know how the LPs will react. Like I said before, it is about knowing what strokes make the pips bend.

I dont know about all that, as a good player who happens to use lp could also step around, twiddle etc. So it depends on your opponent.

To the pips question... now you're just being silly! What rubber is really difficult for opponents but not for me to use!? That's the kind of mindset that gives pip users a bad rap ????

brokenball said:

NO! There are no dangerous rubbers. There are only rubbers people are not use to playing against. There are also rubber that you are not use to playing with.
I have played against Grass D.Tecs. I guy at the club came in with Gras D, Tecs and no one would play with him but me. Since I also was experienced at playing with LP I know how to play against LP. To play against LP 0X one must keep track of what they did the last stroke. If I put top spin on the last ball then I know it will come back with bottom spin so I would push unless it was high. The next ball that came back after the push has top spin. I could attack that. Also, hitting balls to the LP players BH corner presents problems for him. A long return from LPs is slow and give plenty of time to step around to loop with my FH even with the back spin. It is no different than looping a chopped ball.

My point is that there is no magic. I will guarantee you that you will make plenty of unforced errors with LP that you would have made with inverted until you learn how to play with LP. These unforced errors will outnumber the errors the opponents make until you know how the LPs will react. Like I said before, it is about knowing what strokes make the pips bend.

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Good LP don't chop a push because knows he's doing top spin so easy to attack for the opponent also don't return high balls. With push-blocker you don't have time to react, I guess you'r referring to classical long distance choper that's not the case.

Basmundo said:

Is there a rubber available that is dangerous for opponents while not being to much of a problem to play with? Reading around the subject, it would seem that Grass D.Tecs is one of the best rubbers for giving problems for opponents but it is difficult to control when using it.

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All push-blocker are looking for the Holy Grail LP, as all doesn't exist, look for the LP that can control & step & step, little by little you can manage the best ones as inverted: training, training, training....

Imo, it won't matter what long pips you choose, if you are not committed to playing with them for 6 months or longer. They take a long time to get proficient with, but if you are patient, the payoff can be huge. If you are thinking of just trying them for a few weeks to see if you like them, I wouldn't bother. None of the long pip suggestions we have given you are going to help you achieve the goals you stated above, without many, many months of practice and training. If you are serious about trying long pips, just buy any one of the top 5 bestsellers, and learn the basic strokes needed to play with long pips. Once you are proficient with them, then you could experiment with different rubbers. Just my opinion...

merlin el mago said:

Good LP don't chop a push because knows he's doing top spin so easy to attack for the opponent

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I know that but sometimes the LP gets caught when the looper hits a ball at extreme angles to the LP players BH and you must hit the ball from below the net height or even table height.
Chopping back spin balls is normally not good because the back spin cannot be changed. The ball will still go back with top spin. The only chance is to keep the ball low. Also, sometimes the looper over reacts to the chopping motion and hits the next all high.

The point I was making is that as the looper I like to hit balls deep or at angles to the LP players BH because he often can't block at the table. In my video I get caught at the table. My opponent hits a BH shot flat, low and deep into my BH corner. In this case I couldn't do anything about it. The ball was too fast and deep to block at the table but if I was faster I would get back and try to chop it.

Normally the LP wants to return pushes with a quick but soft strike through the ball so as not to bend the pips to get maximum spin reversal. Now the opponents back spin becomes your top spin so it is possible make a more aggressive stroke.

My opponent in the video plays with SP on his BH and often hits balls with little or no spin that seem to not bounce and just slide off the table.

If you stick with it, they will become a powerful weapon, both on their own and to set up your forehand. Have fun!

brokenball said:

I know that but sometimes the LP gets caught when the looper hits a ball at extreme angles to the LP players BH and you must hit the ball from below the net height or even table heighty YOU MUST AVOID USING APROPRIATE TECHNIQUE. Chopping back spin balls is normally not good because the back spin cannot be changed NO PRECISELY IS WHEN YOU HAVE TO CHOP OR CHOP-BLOCK. The ball will still go back with top spin NO YOUR BALL GOES WITH BACK SPIN. The only chance is to keep the ball low NO. Also, sometimes the looper over reacts to the chopping motion and hits the next all high.

The point I was making is that as the looper I like to hit balls deep or at angles to the LP players BH because he often can't block at the table YOU HAVE TO AVOID THE LOOPER SMASH THE BALL KEEPING THE BALL LOW. In my video I get caught at the table. My opponent hits a BH shot flat, low and deep into my BH corner. In this case I couldn't do anything about it. The ball was too fast and deep to block at the table but if I was faster I would get back and try to chop it.

Normally the LP wants to return pushes with a quick but soft strike through the ball so as not to bend the pips to get maximum spin reversal. Now the opponents back spin becomes your top spin so it is possible make a more aggressive stroke.

My opponent in the video plays with SP on his BH and often hits balls with little or no spin that seem to not bounce and just slide off the table.

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Several advices how to use the LP for a push-blocker:
1-Keep the wrist relaxed to absorb all the energy, if enough you can move the hand to your body to tame the speed.
2-Always bend your pips.
3-The best way to return pushes is bending the pips sideways so you return the ball with a lot of disruption.
4-Keep your blade vertical more or less depending the stroke do you want to do.
5-Long and deep serve: if you are fast you can chop, if not (that's require a good technique) open the bat a little more than vertical and return gently with a hit between a push & a drive important not to hit strong & the ball placement.

More advice link:

https://gregsttpages.com/archives/g...g-long-pimples/push-blocker-long-pip-tactics/

https://medium.com/@ttdementor/http...m-ttdementor-playing-long-pimples-21483b9c938

Basmundo said:

I have read various comments advising me that although D.Tecs has good "disruption" it was considered hard for a beginner to LP to control. The implication is that some LPs are easier to control so my question was regarding which ones have a good balance. I see no point in trying LP if there is no disruption to the opposition. Surely there must be some reason why they are used. I am simply looking for a much more controlled backhand to enable setups for my forehand. Maybe I should try a defensive reverse rubber if there is no point in using LP.

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I deleted part of your above quote. As others have already stated, playing with LPs is not a magic solution. You need train hard with them.

My comments below are for OX LPs
as those are the best for close to the table chop block style in order to set up your FH which is the style you have mentioned as wanting to play. LPs are very effective against anyone who doesn't know how to play against them but become a handicap against someone who knows how to play against them. For that reason you need ability to twiddle to use your inverted on your BH for variations and have a good FH loop yourself.

The biggest weapon that LPs have is spin reversal (or continuation.) This effect was reduced drastically when friction less LPs were banned. This has been even further reduced with plastic balls. Due to this, some long time LP players have switched to frictionless anti rubbers or sadly may treat their LPs to make them more friction less which is illegal. LP manufactures know that LPs don't provide the same amount of spin reversal with the plastic ball so have come up with a marketing strategy of stating "their LP is optimized for the plastic ball."

DTechs probably has the highest spin reversal but is fast compared to other OX LPs and more difficult to control. It is also harder to attack with. If you don't mind paying more for it compared to a Chinese LP you can start with it and train. If you have a robot to practice against it will reduce the time for you to get comfortable with it as finding practice partners that want to train for hours against LPs can be quite challenging.

Playing with LPs is not for everyone. You might want to start with a cheaper Chinese LP first to see how you like that style.

BTW, LP players are always looking for the next best rubber in the hopes of getting back that spin reversal. Good luck on your journey.

merlin el mago said:

Several advices how to use the LP for a push-blocker:
1-Keep the wrist relaxed to absorb all the energy, if enough you can move the hand to your body to tame the speed.

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Yes.

2-Always bend your pips.

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Only if you want to increase friction. Bending the pips increases surface area but it also takes more force to bend the pips which increases friction.

3-The best way to return pushes is bending the pips sideways so you return the ball with a lot of disruption.

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Explain to the forum about disruption force! This is a myth.
Hit through or bump the ball when you want to minimize friction by not bending the pips.
Side swipe or chop if you want more friction but it is hard reverse the spin of a spinny ball.
There is nothing magical about the side swipe. It bends pips and increases friction. It will avoid a float ball.

4-Keep your blade vertical more or less depending the stroke do you want to do.

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Yes, timing is important and the elevation at which you hit the ball is important because the ball will bounce up about 80% of the height. In my video I make a mistake of hitting the ball to late when it is too high. Fortunately, I took a lot of pace off the ball and it dropped short and my opponent was too far back to get to it.

5-Long and deep serve: if you are fast you can chop, if not (that's require a good technique) open the bat a little more than vertical and return gently with a hit between a push & a drive important not to hit strong & the ball placement.

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This is inconsistent with your complaint about my talking about chopping. I agree with this latest statement.

A beginner might start with frictionionless anti. One doesn't need to worry about bending pips or not. Also the sponge is dead and absorbs the energy of fast loops better. I have Megablock currently mounted on a Dr Neubauer Matador but I don't play with it often. I can't do much with it but bounce the ball back.

To make cheap frictionless LP buy 755 0X and put it in the window facing the sun until it starts to smell. Then it is done. If you let it 'cook' for too long the pips will become hard and brittle.

@Merlin, explain the mythical disruptive force..
It should be obvious to every that there is no force that LPs can generate that normal inverted can't.

There have been some great articles explaining scientifically what causes some returns with long pips to ‘wobble’ in the air (what people are generally referring to when they say ‘disruption), so it probably doesn’t need to be regurgitated here.

Also, I wouldn’t recommend someone purposely alter the long pips to make them frictionless (put in window facing the sun), as they would be illegal for use in tournaments.

Basmundo said:

Thank you NoFootwork; great content/advice. I am hoping that being used to fast reverse rubbers I should be able to adjust to the D.TecS reasonably well. My next question is how best to glue OX to the blade: glue sheet, WBG or solvent glue? Like most other subjects there are so many proponents of each!

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Playing with a fast inverted is not the same as playing with a fast OX LP. With inverted you can close the blade angle, add your own spin or even punch thru the ball to control the ball. LPs don't add their own spin so it makes them harder to control. If you are blocking close to the table with OX LP against topspin, most players have the blade angle 90 degrees to the table surface and add a quick downward motion shortly ater the bounce to chop block. You can also do a side swipe against a slower ball. Against a ball that has backspin, you can push aggressively as your push will have topspin on it.

Your placement is important as your push return will have light topspin on it. If your opponent know what they are doing, they can easily loop kill this ball. The classic way to play against a LP player is loop one, get back a backspin ball, push this ball, get back a light topspin ball back, then loop again. If you are not placing your returns well a good player will be loop killing to a match win using this basic play pattern.

As mentioned previously by others, you need a loose, soft wrist to control the ball and lots of practice. The LP don't play by themselves.

Regarding gluing OX sheets, there are many tutorials/methods on youtube. Its a pain to get a nice smooth attachment and like with anything else practice makes perfect. Using a glue sheet is the easiest way but 2 things to think about:
1. They have a minor thickness and some OX players don't like that feel.
2. Some glue sheet brands are very strong and can be difficult to remove. If your blade doesn't have any varnish/lacquer, they can pull up some wood splinters from your blade when you remove the glue sheet.

A good water based glue that you use for attaching your inverted rubbers can be used to attach an OX LP as well. It's more difficult as an OX LP is so thin and isn't rigid and this makes attaching difficult as the sheet wants to flop all over the place. Take a look at some tutorials first.

PushSmasher said:

There have been some great articles explaining scientifically what causes some returns with long pips to ‘wobble’ in the air (what people are generally referring to when they say ‘disruption), so it probably doesn’t need to be regurgitated here.

Also, I wouldn’t recommend someone purposely alter the long pips to make them frictionless (put in window facing the sun), as they would be illegal for use in tournaments.

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Illegal for use in tournaments as illegal is to boost the inverted rubbers, both can't be detected.

brokenball said:

Yes.


Only if you want to increase friction. Bending the pips increases surface area but it also takes more force to bend the pips which increases friction.


Explain to the forum about disruption force! This is a myth.
Hit through or bump the ball when you want to minimize friction by not bending the pips.
Side swipe or chop if you want more friction but it is hard reverse the spin of a spinny ball.
There is nothing magical about the side swipe. It bends pips and increases friction. It will avoid a float ball.


Yes, timing is important and the elevation at which you hit the ball is important because the ball will bounce up about 80% of the height. In my video I make a mistake of hitting the ball to late when it is too high. Fortunately, I took a lot of pace off the ball and it dropped short and my opponent was too far back to get to it.


This is inconsistent with your complaint about my talking about chopping. I agree with this latest statement.

A beginner might start with frictionionless anti. One doesn't need to worry about bending pips or not. Also the sponge is dead and absorbs the energy of fast loops better. I have Megablock currently mounted on a Dr Neubauer Matador but I don't play with it often. I can't do much with it but bounce the ball back.

To make cheap frictionless LP buy 755 0X and put it in the window facing the sun until it starts to smell. Then it is done. If you let it 'cook' for too long the pips will become hard and brittle.

@Merlin, explain the mythical disruptive force..
It should be obvious to every that there is no force that LPs can generate that normal inverted can't.

Click to expand...

Bend the pips is the only way to control them.

I didn't see any inverted doing disruption.

Basmundo said:

Thank you NoFootwork; great content/advice. I am hoping that being used to fast reverse rubbers I should be able to adjust to the D.TecS reasonably well. My next question is how best to glue OX to the blade: glue sheet, WBG or solvent glue? Like most other subjects there are so many proponents of each!

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One layer for rubber & one or more layer for blade with WBG. Avoid glue shet because stiff the blade so the rubber become faster.