Are inner carbon blades an exception to "don't go carbon yet"?

[dnelsen]

So I'm around 1200 (RITTA league play) . My game is mostly offensive, with decent loops and drives on both wings, but also lots of slices and close-to-the table touch play. I'm getting professional coaching and and am steadily improving. My game is getting faster and more consistent.

I have thus far followed the "don't go carbon yet" theory, and have no plans for a fast carbon blade anytime soon (if ever)....

The slower 5-ply wood blades have been great. I've gone from a Yasaka Sweden Extra to a Virtuoso OFF- to a Stiga Arctic Wood. All 5 ply, each slightly faster than the last. The Stiga is currently my favorite, due to the Legend Flare handle (I have large hands), and better weight balance (the V- is a size large 159, which ended up being a bit head heavy for my liking).

For rubbers I'm using g1 max on forehand and nittaku factive 2.0 on backhand, and have no plans to change. Very happy with these rubbers.

In terms of how they play, at first I thought the Stiga was a bit too fast, but I've gotten used to it and am now really enjoying the extra speed. So long story short, I'm really liking the fast 5-ply's....

But then I'm reading about how inner carbon blades like the Innerforce ALC or Virtuoso AC provide some of the benefits of carbon without being super fast all the time. Extra power when you want it on hard swings, extra stability on fast blocks, and a slightly larger sweet spot.... but still retains the control of a 5-ply wood for over the table play, slower loops, etc. Do you agree with this assessment of inner carbons? Certainly the marketing and many reviews would suggest as such.

So given this supposed "best of both worlds" approach with the inner carbons, does the "don't go carbon yet" theory still apply? Or is an inner carbon blade worth trying, given how I'm progressing with the fast wood blades?

Without a doubt some of you are thinking "don't change anything, this is EJ sickness"..... I get that.... but I just love the rackets and really enjoy the process of trying a new one. Not just in seeing how they play, but also the assembly and customization. To me it's very enjoyable and feels like part of the sport.... Nevertheless, I'm doing my best to remember that EJ sickness can mess with your head and convince you to stick with a faster racket when it really is just too fast. I don't want to fall into this trap.

Thanks

 

[Lazer]

No, its no must, Just make sure You get a blade rated with low speed and not too stiff. I can mention two of them right here and now. Nittaku S-CZ and Donic Appelgren WC 89. They are actually outers, but not too fast at all and somewhat flexy. They have some kind of Zylon outer layer with a spruce top. They are virtually identical and I got 2 of each, 1 main, 1 backup and two for experiments. I also have Butterfly ALC.S which is an ALC inner. That blade is actually slower than most allwood 7 ply's. It doesn't have a good feel either. Another one I have (Same builder as the set of 4 soulspin) is a Nittuaku basalt inner. It has woven basalt sheet. This under the spruce. I dont remenber the interrmediate layer right now. The basalt layer makes it hard top down but not stiff when bending so this has a hard surface under the spruce with some bend to it. It's a bautiful blade but a little too heavy (93g I like to remember).
There is one out there for You as well.

Cheers
L-zr

 

[Jslick89]

I started using Viscaria when i was rated a little bit lower than you. I had coaching to make sure my technique was still sound. I'm still using Viscaria but i changed from tenergy 05 on forehand to DHS NEO 3. it was a really good transition for me, but perhaps not for everyone.

However, recently, i did want to try an inner carbon blade. I bought a super cheaper SANWEI CC blade ($10) and a SANWAI Target Pro ($9) on aliexpress. I threw an old but still pretty good D09C on the backhand. Overall, the blade is a LOT slower than my viscaria / hurricane set up. I also felt the "vibration" much more significantly than on my vis. I actually felt a little more confident ripping shots on my backhand due to the slower speed. However, i lost too much on my bread and butter shot- the forehand loop.

So ultimately i decided the SANWEI CC set up really isn't for me to play with seriously. I might use it for fun on occasion but I really dont EJ. I think its really bad for one's table tennis development. Even if some equipment might actually be better for you than others, if youre constantly switching, things up, you're not going to find that super important rhythm you need to excel in table tennis. so for me personally, I believe i would develop faster using the same equipment for many years, then switching equipment multiple times per year in hopes of finding the most perfect set up. For reference, I used Vis+tenergy for 2 years, before I switched to vis+hurricane+ D09C for the last year. I'm very happy with this set up and I will keep using it. THe only thing I might switch is to get the FZD ALC, which is basically a viscaria but more beautiful.

 

[TensorBackhand]

So I'm around 1200 (RITTA league play) . My game is mostly offensive, with decent loops and drives on both wings, but also lots of slices and close-to-the table touch play. I'm getting professional coaching and and am steadily improving. My game is getting faster and more consistent.

I have thus far followed the "don't go carbon yet" theory, and have no plans for a fast carbon blade anytime soon (if ever)....

The slower 5-ply wood blades have been great. I've gone from a Yasaka Sweden Extra to a Virtuoso OFF- to a Stiga Arctic Wood. All 5 ply, each slightly faster than the last. The Stiga is currently my favorite, due to the Legend Flare handle (I have large hands), and better weight balance (the V- is a size large 159, which ended up being a bit head heavy for my liking).

For rubbers I'm using g1 max on forehand and nittaku factive 2.0 on backhand, and have no plans to change. Very happy with these rubbers.

In terms of how they play, at first I thought the Stiga was a bit too fast, but I've gotten used to it and am now really enjoying the extra speed. So long story short, I'm really liking the fast 5-ply's....

But then I'm reading about how inner carbon blades like the Innerforce ALC or Virtuoso AC provide some of the benefits of carbon without being super fast all the time. Extra power when you want it on hard swings, extra stability on fast blocks, and a slightly larger sweet spot.... but still retains the control of a 5-ply wood for over the table play, slower loops, etc. Do you agree with this assessment of inner carbons? Certainly the marketing and many reviews would suggest as such.

So given this supposed "best of both worlds" approach with the inner carbons, does the "don't go carbon yet" theory still apply? Or is an inner carbon blade worth trying, given how I'm progressing with the fast wood blades?

Without a doubt some of you are thinking "don't change anything, this is EJ sickness"..... I get that.... but I just love the rackets and really enjoy the process of trying a new one. Not just in seeing how they play, but also the assembly and customization. To me it's very enjoyable and feels like part of the sport.... Nevertheless, I'm doing my best to remember that EJ sickness can mess with your head and convince you to stick with a faster racket when it really is just too fast. I don't want to fall into this trap.

Thanks

yes, A soft inner carbon blade like Sanwei F3 Pro is very easy to control

 

[NextLevel]

So I'm around 1200 (RITTA league play) . My game is mostly offensive, with decent loops and drives on both wings, but also lots of slices and close-to-the table touch play. I'm getting professional coaching and and am steadily improving. My game is getting faster and more consistent.

I have thus far followed the "don't go carbon yet" theory, and have no plans for a fast carbon blade anytime soon (if ever)....

The slower 5-ply wood blades have been great. I've gone from a Yasaka Sweden Extra to a Virtuoso OFF- to a Stiga Arctic Wood. All 5 ply, each slightly faster than the last. The Stiga is currently my favorite, due to the Legend Flare handle (I have large hands), and better weight balance (the V- is a size large 159, which ended up being a bit head heavy for my liking).

For rubbers I'm using g1 max on forehand and nittaku factive 2.0 on backhand, and have no plans to change. Very happy with these rubbers.

In terms of how they play, at first I thought the Stiga was a bit too fast, but I've gotten used to it and am now really enjoying the extra speed. So long story short, I'm really liking the fast 5-ply's....

But then I'm reading about how inner carbon blades like the Innerforce ALC or Virtuoso AC provide some of the benefits of carbon without being super fast all the time. Extra power when you want it on hard swings, extra stability on fast blocks, and a slightly larger sweet spot.... but still retains the control of a 5-ply wood for over the table play, slower loops, etc. Do you agree with this assessment of inner carbons? Certainly the marketing and many reviews would suggest as such.

So given this supposed "best of both worlds" approach with the inner carbons, does the "don't go carbon yet" theory still apply? Or is an inner carbon blade worth trying, given how I'm progressing with the fast wood blades?

Without a doubt some of you are thinking "don't change anything, this is EJ sickness"..... I get that.... but I just love the rackets and really enjoy the process of trying a new one. Not just in seeing how they play, but also the assembly and customization. To me it's very enjoyable and feels like part of the sport.... Nevertheless, I'm doing my best to remember that EJ sickness can mess with your head and convince you to stick with a faster racket when it really is just too fast. I don't want to fall into this trap.

Thanks

As someone who used mostly all wood blades up until 2020, I would say that while preference is always personal, if you want to take a step or two off the table without using a composite, you had better chop and even then, I am not entirely sold. Quality control and the reliability of composite blades is just much higher. Might have saved myself a lot of trouble if I had bitten the bullet earlier on carbon blades and mastered them. The longer you stick with wood, the longer you will be used to the properties. But unless you play with extreme physical effort, playing off the table with carbon is just easier, and if spin and control are your concerns, you can go tacky.

 

[Jslick89]

As someone who used mostly all wood blades up until 2020, I would say that while preference is always personal, if you want to take a step or two off the table without using a composite, you had better chop and even then, I am not entirely sold. Quality control and the reliability of composite blades is just much higher. Might have saved myself a lot of trouble if I had bitten the bullet earlier on carbon blades and mastered them. The longer you stick with wood, the longer you will be used to the properties. But unless you play with extreme physical effort, playing off the table with carbon is just easier, and if spin and control are your concerns, you can go tacky.

Dang you are using a SALC now? How do you like it? Def agree that carbon is the way to go once you are getting to a playing level where you have rallies a few steps back from the table.

 

[NextLevel]

Dang you are using a SALC now? How do you like it? Def agree that carbon is the way to go once you are getting to a playing level where you have rallies a few steps back from the table.

I prefer ALC to ZLC for how I play, I feel SALC plays like ALC but faster in a material way that doesn't hurt your overall game. As in it is an improvement in speed and in a weird way spin/control that goes well with ball holding rubbers. So you could go from say T05 to Dignics or Dignics 05 to Dignics 09c with a chance from ALC to SALC and see benefit.

 

[Fantastic_Muffin_D]

I'm the one go from Super ALC Vis to Vis ALC. It was much better for me, I felt like the arc has more safety, I loop better, control stuff easier, my ripping shot into the table went up in percentage. However, I felt like the super vis vibrates more than normal vis (butterfly stats is kinda true), which is good for my feeling at first since it help me develop feelings before moving to normal vis, which is the one you have to penetrate more to feel the vibrations.

 

[Brs]

I'm getting professional coaching and and am steadily improving.

Dude, ask your coach and use what he says.

 

[JJ Ng]

So I recently started experimenting with inner carbon again. And I am bit confused.

I started trying inner carbon blades recently with franziska inner zlc and ovtcharov innerforce alc and I got really confused. Both blades (I don't know how Butterfly does it) feel very dead at low speed, like slower than all wood blade and on passive shots, I keep on dumping the ball into the net. But once I do active shots (like looping and flipping etc.), the shots are very fast. And I was drawn to this property because by playing with these two inner carbon blades, it forces me to be active to loop, and smash and flip (instead of pushing and chopping).

I am confused because I tried Fang Bo (the first version) and Tibhar Fortino Performance before and both were inner. I really did not like Fang Bo and really really like Tibhar Fortino Performance.

So this past week, I glued rubbers onto Fang Bo and Nittaku Septear Inner and found out, I still hate Fang Bo. Both Fang Bo and Nittaku Septear Inner (along with Tibhar Fortino Performance) are linear and are simply slower than outer carbon blade. However, when I hit hard, it is still slower than what I expected.

In other words, I don't know what Butterfly does to the franziska inner zlc and ovtcharov innerforce alc. They are not linear. At slow racket speed, they are very very slow. But at fast racket speed, the balls just shoot out! Now I finally know what people mean when they say a certain blade has "many gears."

Quite frankly, outer carbon has only one gear. But inner carbons like Fang Bo and others also have mostly one gear, in a very linear fashion. But Butterfly inner blade seem to have many gears.

For price's sake, maybe you should try both ovtcharov innerforce alc and Tibhar Fortino Performance and see which type of inner carbon blades you like.

When I tried Tibhar Fortino Performance, I was coming from 5-ply all wood Tibhar Stratus Powerwood. I just remember that Tibhar Fortino Performance has a lot of control, like 5-ply all wood but just faster which was very pleasant! It was very linear. The more power you put in, the more you get out of it.

Franziska inner zlc and ovtcharov innerforce alc to me do not feel linear at all. In fact, when I am far away from table, forehand loop feels very comfortable. But backhand lob (a passive shot), I still tend to land the ball short and my brain is still trying to figure this out. Now I am forced to counter loop on the backhand side when I am far away from the table which is not a bad thing in itself. But if I don't have the fundamentals, I can see how Franziska inner zlc and ovtcharov innerforce alc can really mess with you.

Those are my two cents for now until I try the inner carbon blades for longer period of time.

On a side note, when I played with outer carbon, my backhand really really like soft ESN rubber like C-1 and EL-P, etc. However, once I started playing with franziska inner zlc and ovtcharov innerforce alc, my backhand hates those soft rubbers. Instead I had to put Dignics 64 on one blade's backhand and Rosanter C-45 on the other blade's backhand. Then all of the sudden, the blade came aliv!. And after playing D64 and C-45 for about 1-2 weeks, I also finally know what people mean that with soft ESN rubber, when you are far away from the table, the sponge "bottoms" out and you need harder rubbers in that case.

In other words, the pairing of the blades and rubbers is very important. And you don't know what works well for you until you try to mix up the pairing to find out what YOU like.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

So I recently started experimenting with inner carbon again. And I am bit confused.

I started trying inner carbon blades recently with franziska inner zlc and ovtcharov innerforce alc and I got really confused. Both blades (I don't know how Butterfly does it) feel very dead at low speed, like slower than all wood blade and on passive shots, I keep on dumping the ball into the net. But once I do active shots (like looping and flipping etc.), the shots are very fast. And I was drawn to this property because by playing with these two inner carbon blades, it forces me to be active to loop, and smash and flip (instead of pushing and chopping).

I am confused because I tried Fang Bo (the first version) and Tibhar Fortino Performance before and both were inner. I really did not like Fang Bo and really really like Tibhar Fortino Performance.

So this past week, I glued rubbers onto Fang Bo and Nittaku Septear Inner and found out, I still hate Fang Bo. Both Fang Bo and Nittaku Septear Inner (along with Tibhar Fortino Performance) are linear and are simply slower than outer carbon blade. However, when I hit hard, it is still slower than what I expected.

In other words, I don't know what Butterfly does to the franziska inner zlc and ovtcharov innerforce alc. They are not linear. At slow racket speed, they are very very slow. But at fast racket speed, the balls just shoot out! Now I finally know what people mean when they say a certain blade has "many gears."

Quite frankly, outer carbon has only one gear. But inner carbons like Fang Bo and others also have mostly one gear, in a very linear fashion. But Butterfly inner blade seem to have many gears.

For price's sake, maybe you should try both ovtcharov innerforce alc and Tibhar Fortino Performance and see which type of inner carbon blades you like.

When I tried Tibhar Fortino Performance, I was coming from 5-ply all wood Tibhar Stratus Powerwood. I just remember that Tibhar Fortino Performance has a lot of control, like 5-ply all wood but just faster which was very pleasant! It was very linear. The more power you put in, the more you get out of it.

Franziska inner zlc and ovtcharov innerforce alc to me do not feel linear at all. In fact, when I am far away from table, forehand loop feels very comfortable. But backhand lob (a passive shot), I still tend to land the ball short and my brain is still trying to figure this out. Now I am forced to counter loop on the backhand side when I am far away from the table which is not a bad thing in itself. But if I don't have the fundamentals, I can see how Franziska inner zlc and ovtcharov innerforce alc can really mess with you.

Those are my two cents for now until I try the inner carbon blades for longer period of time.

On a side note, when I played with outer carbon, my backhand really really like soft ESN rubber like C-1 and EL-P, etc. However, once I started playing with franziska inner zlc and ovtcharov innerforce alc, my backhand hates those soft rubbers. Instead I had to put Dignics 64 on one blade's backhand and Rosanter C-45 on the other blade's backhand. Then all of the sudden, the blade came aliv!. And after playing D64 and C-45 for about 1-2 weeks, I also finally know what people mean that with soft ESN rubber, when you are far away from the table, the sponge "bottoms" out and you need harder rubbers in that case.

In other words, the pairing of the blades and rubbers is very important. And you don't know what works well for you until you try to mix up the pairing to find out what YOU like.

Sounds like a technique issue. While inner carbon blades run a slightly wider spectrum for speed/reactivity as a function of swing speed than outer carbon blades the difference is mostly pretty minor. The slightly reduced reactivity especially on touch shots is not the reason why you are suddenly dumping every ball into the net. And generally, inner carbon blades with the exception of the W968 and maybe a few others, are still slower than outer carbon equivalents at higher swing speeds.

 

[JJ Ng]

Sounds like a technique issue. While inner carbon blades run a slightly wider spectrum for speed/reactivity as a function of swing speed than outer carbon blades the difference is mostly pretty minor. The slightly reduced reactivity especially on touch shots is not the reason why you are suddenly dumping every ball into the net. And generally, inner carbon blades with the exception of the W968 and maybe a few others, are still slower than outer carbon equivalents at higher swing speeds.

I don't think it is a technique issue. When I said I dumped all the balls into the net, I was exaggerating. I might have dumped all the passive shots into the net for the first 5 minutes but I adjusted.

I don't know. Franziska inner zlc and ovtcharov innerforce alc seem to have other gears that other inner carbon blades don't have.

Literally I had four blades set up earlier this week: all four have boosted H3 BS provincial on the forehand side. Granted that DHS does not have the best quality control, but Franziska inner zlc and ovtcharov innerforce alc played differently than Nittaku Septear Inner and Fang Bo on all the forehand shots: push, flip, smash, loop close to the table and loop away from the table. Looping away from the table, Franziska inner zlc and ovtcharov innerforce alc make Nittaku Septear Inner and Fang Bo feel very slow by comparison.

Now my clubmates want me to try the Harimoto inner carbon series (from ALC to SALZ to ZLC) and Timo Boll ZLF. I had to tell them to stop because my brain is literally adjusting right now and I don't need more noises. I don't want to go broke either.

I might stick a set of rubber on Tibhar Fortino Performance and try that again.

On the other hand, as I play more I might come to a different conclusion in regard to these inner carbon blades. I will keep an open mind.

 

[impluse101]

I don't think it is a technique issue. When I said I dumped all the balls into the net, I was exaggerating. I might have dumped all the passive shots into the net for the first 5 minutes but I adjusted.

I don't know. Franziska inner zlc and ovtcharov innerforce alc seem to have other gears that other inner carbon blades don't have.

Literally I had four blades set up earlier this week: all four have boosted H3 BS provincial on the forehand side. Granted that DHS does not have the best quality control, but Franziska inner zlc and ovtcharov innerforce alc played differently than Nittaku Septear Inner and Fang Bo on all the forehand shots: push, flip, smash, loop close to the table and loop away from the table. Looping away from the table, Franziska inner zlc and ovtcharov innerforce alc make Nittaku Septear Inner and Fang Bo feel very slow by comparison.

Now my clubmates want me to try the Harimoto inner carbon series (from ALC to SALZ to ZLC) and Timo Boll ZLF. I had to tell them to stop because my brain is literally adjusting right now and I don't need more noises. I don't want to go broke either.

I might stick a set of rubber on Tibhar Fortino Performance and try that again.

On the other hand, as I play more I might come to a different conclusion in regard to these inner carbon blades. I will keep an open mind.

curious here. Have you gotten to a point where to tried and used the TB ZLF?

 

[kobietgiainen]

So I'm around 1200 (RITTA league play) . My game is mostly offensive, with decent loops and drives on both wings, but also lots of slices and close-to-the table touch play. I'm getting professional coaching and and am steadily improving. My game is getting faster and more consistent.

I have thus far followed the "don't go carbon yet" theory, and have no plans for a fast carbon blade anytime soon (if ever)....

The slower 5-ply wood blades have been great. I've gone from a Yasaka Sweden Extra to a Virtuoso OFF- to a Stiga Arctic Wood. All 5 ply, each slightly faster than the last. The Stiga is currently my favorite, due to the Legend Flare handle (I have large hands), and better weight balance (the V- is a size large 159, which ended up being a bit head heavy for my liking).

For rubbers I'm using g1 max on forehand and nittaku factive 2.0 on backhand, and have no plans to change. Very happy with these rubbers.

In terms of how they play, at first I thought the Stiga was a bit too fast, but I've gotten used to it and am now really enjoying the extra speed. So long story short, I'm really liking the fast 5-ply's....

But then I'm reading about how inner carbon blades like the Innerforce ALC or Virtuoso AC provide some of the benefits of carbon without being super fast all the time. Extra power when you want it on hard swings, extra stability on fast blocks, and a slightly larger sweet spot.... but still retains the control of a 5-ply wood for over the table play, slower loops, etc. Do you agree with this assessment of inner carbons? Certainly the marketing and many reviews would suggest as such.

So given this supposed "best of both worlds" approach with the inner carbons, does the "don't go carbon yet" theory still apply? Or is an inner carbon blade worth trying, given how I'm progressing with the fast wood blades?

Without a doubt some of you are thinking "don't change anything, this is EJ sickness"..... I get that.... but I just love the rackets and really enjoy the process of trying a new one. Not just in seeing how they play, but also the assembly and customization. To me it's very enjoyable and feels like part of the sport.... Nevertheless, I'm doing my best to remember that EJ sickness can mess with your head and convince you to stick with a faster racket when it really is just too fast. I don't want to fall into this trap.

Thanks

if you really chop a lot and really want to make your chop dangerous then stay with all wood blades. Inner carbon produces less spin than all wood. Chen Weixing, a chop-looper, use a 7-plyw allwood blade, not inner carbon. If you loop kill on both wings and rarely chop (like fan zhendong) then begin with the Stiga infinity vps v then inner carbon. Remember to consider DHS blades because they're all head-heavy. You need to hit the ball hard to fully activate the carbon layers inside (need advanced technique) to achieve top-end speed

 

[Scarfed Garchomp]

Chen Weixing, a chop-looper, use a 7-plyw allwood blade, not inner carbon.

Your point stands but he used the Butterfly Defence II, all willow wood with 5 plies in the handle and 3 in the head

 

[kobietgiainen]

Your point stands but he used the Butterfly Defence II, all willow wood with 5 plies in the handle and 3 in the head

I thought that he was sponsored by joola and had his own blade. He used to play with defence 2 but that was a long time ago.

 

[Lula]

Allwood blades can be faster than innercarbon blades. I think for results right now you could be benefit from a faster blade but for development i believe the slower one is always better. So carbon or allwood do not matter, as long as the blade is not to fast.

 

[vanjr]

I think, getting back to the original question that two factors play a role. One is coaching. If you have a good coach to correct technical issues going to a carbon blade is fine. The second is just as important and that is time on the table. I am a firm believer that if you play 3-5 times a week that going to faster equipment is probably OK-I don't think it is just total hours. Repetitive reinforcement is important.