Asking for Strategy against these 2 Players

[Zezima]

Hey everyone,
I am going to play against these 2 players tomorrow. I have played against them almost 2 years ago. I think I have improved more than them in the meantime but they have a more solid "gamestyle" if that makes sense.
Watching these videos. What is your takeaway and how would you coach me and give me tips in terms of what kind of service I should do with the 3rd Ball attack in mind. How should I receive their service (flick,push etc) where to loop if I get the chance and so on.
All I can say is that my backhand loop got much much better but I can´t tell for sure if it´s gonna work on matchday aswell. Either way I am confident I can beat these 2 players.
Against Stefan I won once already so its 1-1 overall. But that was more him making unforced errors that day and me blocking only. And in the last encounter he didn´t really struggle at all.

Enough talking:

EDIT 03.10.2024

Result - Matchday:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLYr1TSq_v-0HzNjhFrW8-MexCogCm-uiz

 

[Amayzde]

Honestly the most important thing is to stay low and forward during rallies. This is especially important for you because you are a tall dude.

I see you get upright and start creeping backwards away from the table. Don’t be afraid of their attacks. Stay forward and stay close to keep the pressure on. As soon as you start walking backwards you give them the advantage.

Same goes for your own attack. If you get upright, your opening attacks will be vulnerable for counter attacks. Even if they don’t counter you right away, it will be hard keeping the pressure on.

Also whenever you attack, try to (if its not too high risk for you) aim a little more into the corners of the table. Lots of balls going thowards the middle of the table or right in the middle of the backhand/forehand area.

Thats all I got for now. I could say more, but I don’t want to overcomplicate this.

Just focus on staying close and low, so don’t creep up and backwards. And make the table a little wider for them by really playing the corners.

Good luck!

 

[Ash0210]

Hey everyone,
I am going to play against these 2 players tomorrow. I have played against them almost 2 years ago. I think I have improved more than them in the meantime but they have a more solid "gamestyle" if that makes sense.
Watching these videos. What is your takeaway and how would you coach me and give me tips in terms of what kind of service I should do with the 3rd Ball attack in mind. How should I receive their service (flick,push etc) where to loop if I get the chance and so on.
All I can say is that my backhand loop got much much better but I can´t tell for sure if it´s gonna work on matchday aswell. Either way I am confident I can beat these 2 players.
Against Stefan I won once already so its 1-1 overall. But that was more him making unforced errors that day and me blocking only. And in the last encounter he didn´t really struggle at all.

Enough talking:

BE MORE CONFIDENT!There were instances where the opponent is looping without much pace, counter these immediately or simply vary the placement of your blocks .Don't hesitate to use power, you've good good spin but don't seem to be using much strength.I can see that you don't have a particular way of playing, either be forehand dominant or backhand dominant(having backhand ready for recieve by default is more advantageous in my opinion).By not having a preferred side you're more prone to being in 2 minds while receiving a serve or finishing a point.Cant really say when to flick as nost serves as long, try to loop these if possible, try short backhand serves and flick the recieve if its short.And most importantly,have fun!
🏓=❤️

 

[dingyibvs]

You've been improving so hard to say what would be effective now. I felt that your issue before was footwork. In these videos, unless you're forced off the table you move your feet precisely 1 time per shot. If you just look at the feet in those videos, you can see how even the much older opponent in the first videos shuffles his feet much more often than you. Footwork is the secret sauce in turning practice results into match results. The more you practice, the more you get used to hitting certain shots from certain positions, and the more useless those practice results become when you're not in that position in games.

BTW, the 2nd opponent, Stefan, has the same issue as you, so not surprising that you can beat him now. Idk if he's improved on that, but that level of footwork in a two-winged looper means that he'd only be good at 3rd ball attacks against weak returns and against subsequent soft blocks. You need better footwork to attack strongly a good long return or a more active block/counter. So your strategy against him should be preventing a good 3rd ball attack by being aggressive with receives, a deep long push to the body is fine for this. If in a rally, move him around with your blocks, targeting especially his middle more often. He's solid with FH/BH transitions, but he'd need to move to continue attacks from the middle.

 

[TensorBackhand]

What type of spin is the red guy's backhand serve? I can see it's sidespin, but I can't tell if its topspin or underspin.

This is the same issue I have always had

 

[dingyibvs]

What type of spin is the red guy's backhand serve? I can see it's sidespin, but I can't tell if its topspin or underspin.

This is the same issue I have always had

His is pretty easy to read, just pay attention to what the racket is doing when he contacts the ball. He starts off with 3 straight backspins, then mostly did topspins and no spins afterwards.

As for tactics against him, his service/receive game is far superior so if the OP can get comfortable with those and don't give him the initiative so often the there's a chance. He takes a very BH oriented stance on service/receives, so something long to his elbow could be helpful. For example, on services long fast serves to the elbow and sometimes FH corner (not too wide, or he can take it off the bounce) could be effective.

 

[TensorBackhand]

His is pretty easy to read, just pay attention to what the racket is doing when he contacts the ball. He starts off with 3 straight backspins, then mostly did topspins and no spins afterwards.

As for tactics against him, his service/receive game is far superior so if the OP can get comfortable with those and don't give him the initiative so often the there's a chance. He takes a very BH oriented stance on service/receives, so something long to his elbow could be helpful. For example, on services long fast serves to the elbow and sometimes FH corner (not too wide, or he can take it off the bounce) could be effective.

Why is this so easy for others but hard for me. Every single one of his serves looked the same to me, and I would've been popping them up high.

 

[dingyibvs]

Why is this so easy for others but hard for me. Every single one of his serves looked the same to me, and I would've been popping them up high.

Well, some of them he's turning the bat over like a BH counter, so you can read those for sure. For the other ones the key is to focus on the acceleration. In order to create good spin the bat needs to be accelerating through the contact. Is he accelerating when it's coming down or going up? His is particularly easy to read because he's actually dragging his bat from right to left (or left to right from your perspective) when he's serving top/side. When he serves backspin or no spin his bat makes the regular motion. With his no spin it's pretty obvious that he's not accelerating his bat.

 

[Der_Echte]

You've been improving so hard to say what would be effective now. I felt that your issue before was footwork. In these videos, unless you're forced off the table you move your feet precisely 1 time per shot. If you just look at the feet in those videos, you can see how even the much older opponent in the first videos shuffles his feet much more often than you. Footwork is the secret sauce in turning practice results into match results. The more you practice, the more you get used to hitting certain shots from certain positions, and the more useless those practice results become when you're not in that position in games.

BTW, the 2nd opponent, Stefan, has the same issue as you, so not surprising that you can beat him now. Idk if he's improved on that, but that level of footwork in a two-winged looper means that he'd only be good at 3rd ball attacks against weak returns and against subsequent soft blocks. You need better footwork to attack strongly a good long return or a more active block/counter. So your strategy against him should be preventing a good 3rd ball attack by being aggressive with receives, a deep long push to the body is fine for this. If in a rally, move him around with your blocks, targeting especially his middle more often. He's solid with FH/BH transitions, but he'd need to move to continue attacks from the middle.

Dave,

Take a look where our OP in black shirt is setting his position of leverage with hitting elbow... whenever OP fails to keep upper arm set and elbow a little forward/side of rib cage, he doesn't move well or transition well.

Correcting that one thing really opens things up... it is also linked to confidence.. look when OP had decent elbow ready/recovery position... whenever he got a ball wherever, he was unconsciously ready to strike and did strike... successfully.

 

[dingyibvs]

Dave,

Take a look where our OP in black shirt is setting his position of leverage with hitting elbow... whenever OP fails to keep upper arm set and elbow a little forward/side of rib cage, he doesn't move well or transition well.

Correcting that one thing really opens things up... it is also linked to confidence.. look when OP had decent elbow ready/recovery position... whenever he got a ball wherever, he was unconsciously ready to strike and did strike... successfully.

To me, footwork is actually somewhat of a misnomer. It's really about so much than just the feet, it's preparing your whole body for the next shot. You see it the most with the feet as it contrasts with the stationary ground, but returning your hips, elbow, center of gravity, etc. to the ready position and moving them when the opponent strikes the ball so you're ready to swing is equally important.

It really only starts with the feet, but sometimes the feet hardly moves. Just barely a shuffle, maybe just a little rotation with zero translational movement. Even that's important, however, because all those other moves will alter your balance, and your feet need to move to restore balance. Mometum is always preserved in physics. When the elbow moves back to ready position something else needs to move forward, similarly for every other body part. The feet is what ends up transmitting the sum of all those momenta to the earth, keeping you where you want to be and where all your body parts where you want them to be. You may want to be at the same exact place, but your feet still need to work to make that happen.

You see that older guy, he doesn't move around that much, but he always seems to have good leverage, even if he has to lean or reach. It's because he adjusts his whole body after each shot. You may not be able to see that behind his clothes and gut (like someone we may know 🤭), but you can see it in the way his feet shuffles.

 

[Zezima]

• x during rally I tend to go upright. -> is going backwards a big problem to have more time? I didn´t practise counterlooping over the table too much and it also seems to be a hard stroke to do. I miss the ball entirely even though I know in the drills I am gonna get it to my fh side for example.
• Also figured I am too "soft" and think thats how to get the control and use the opponents spin. I didn´t quite understand that "using opponents spin" concept.
• Anyway I am supposed to use a faster forearm movement for Counterlooping or it goes out.

• Against Falk I struggled very much with his sidespin serves. All I could read was it has sidespin and thats it. Will analyze more today to see the subtle changes he does.
• I also struggled hard with long serves back then. Still do but it got much much better. Does the left sidespin or right sidespin matter on where I need to hit the ball on service receive?
• Sadly I don´t have a good server (with sidespin) to train.
• I don´t move my legs much because I don´t know where I will get the next ball. So Unless I can do a good offensive receive or a good push receive I will be always on my backfoot.
• I beat Stefan on my first encounter on my 2nd one I lost 1-3 as you saw in the video. He played the same just did less mistakes.

Noted:

• stay low and forward
• Loop with placement
• against Falk(Leftie) to his Backhand more
• against Stefan more to the Middle/Backhand -> Middle most
• Vary Serve Return - Focus on keeping short/halflong - Loop long ones.
• Service:
• against Falck more to his Backhand. Long fast Service to his backhand combined with FH Corner(not too wide) - Be prepared to attack next Ball
• Backhand Service Like in 3rd game at 35sec and 42sec. Basically Half- long light backspin/no spin to his Backhand/elbow.
• Falck tends to use more Sidespin with a bit of Topspin serves in combination with no spin. Do a small counter? or loop if it gets too long
• Against Stefan:
• Use more tomahawk service (with backspin mostly). He always pushes it into the net. Also use it to his FH and see how he reacts.
• Short backspin to the mid. He always Pushes back -> Don´t push again but loop it, because he pushes long (stay close to the table)
• Stop "soft" blocking balls to his FH.
• Just felt like we were playing a drill where I am the blocker who is not allowed to play agressive and he is the attacker. And I am blocking 1-2 to his backhand and then 1 to his FH.
• Too slow strokes and general gameplay -> Focus on more "explosiveness" while staying relaxed and move your legs around backhand corner better for the shot.

 

[Aizen]

Your opponent has only couple attack from BH side in videos, he often pops up with push. He seems as he have stronger FH side. He tries to cover whole table with FH by pivot attack.

His receive stance is overly inclined to FH, his right foot is way too front. You may check the photo below. Even before you toss, he just expect every serve to long FH.
(Either he should have really good backhand or no backhand.)

You mostly serve long to his FH which he expects, or short to his BH which he can reach.

A tactic would be, mixing long fast serve to BH sometimes where he can’t attack easily and distracts his comfortable FH.

A second could be when he made a pivot attack and just blocking to FH corner can give you advantage. His first pivot attacks doesn’t seem so strong as regular attacks.

 

[Amayzde]

• x during rally I tend to go upright. -> is going backwards a big problem to have more time? I didn´t practise counterlooping over the table too much and it also seems to be a hard stroke to do. I miss the ball entirely even though I know in the drills I am gonna get it to my fh side for example.
• Also figured I am too "soft" and think thats how to get the control and use the opponents spin. I didn´t quite understand that "using opponents spin" concept.
• Anyway I am supposed to use a faster forearm movement for Counterlooping or it goes out.

With counterlooping you are already thinking too far, this is not pro level. Just staying close to the table, after 1 or 2 blocks will neutralize their attack. They will either miss, or they go backwards themselves and you can then take over.

Only when their attack is rather high and slow, right into your forehand or backhand, you can counter them. Just like Falk did to you at the beginning of the first set at 0:09.

And unless you got alot more confortable with countering away from the table, I wouldn’t bet on that strategy. All I can see here is that especially against Stefan you start walking backwards and you are stuck there fishing.

 

[blahness]

Guy in red (lefty) is good at receiving BH pendulum type sidespin with his FH, but does he know how to receive FH pendulum type sidespin serves from a righty? Also it appears that his half long loop for balls exiting the sides of the table (on FH side) is weak. Also his BH attack seems weak too, long balls to his BH (ideally close to the corner) will lead to him pushing and giving you a very attackable ball. If he likes pushing with his BH how does he handle heavy sidetopspin serves there?

Guy in black seems to have similar BH weaknesses so I would target it with long pushes and then loop spinny to his middle where his defence appears weak. His receive of lefty BH pendulum serves seems quite atrocious and he only pushes them so this is a big weakness, just serve long FH pendulum (as a righty) to the same spots and he will struggle. Make sure to loop the pushed return and be aware of the sidespin and adjust properly.

 

[Zezima]

Guy in red (lefty) is good at receiving BH pendulum type sidespin with his FH, but does he know how to receive FH pendulum type sidespin serves from a righty? Also it appears that his half long loop for balls exiting the sides of the table (on FH side) is weak. Also his BH attack seems weak too, long balls to his BH (ideally close to the corner) will lead to him pushing and giving you a very attackable ball. If he likes pushing with his BH how does he handle heavy sidetopspin serves there?

Guy in black seems to have similar BH weaknesses so I would target it with long pushes and then loop spinny to his middle where his defence appears weak. His receive of lefty BH pendulum serves seems quite atrocious and he only pushes them so this is a big weakness, just serve long FH pendulum (as a righty) to the same spots and he will struggle. Make sure to loop the pushed return and be aware of the sidespin and adjust properly.

I am super confused with the service explanation what is what. You explaining my service from a leftys perspective (I am a righty) confuses me even more. "

His receive of lefty BH pendulum

Can you give me timestamps maybe or a better explanation on what type of service I am giving them and where I positioned it? That would be very helpful.
From what I have seen in the video against half long backspin balls he can receive with a loop with his backhand. But I agree I never really served him fast to his backhand. I am also very slow after the serve so I never wanted a fast ball diagonally to my fh. I am more comfortable with slow long backspin balls where I can open up with my "spinny" loop technique.
In the first set at 20sec I keep trying to block his loops here to his fh side but it would all go out. Technically I should be much better at blocking nowadays. But yeah maybe I should be trying to counterloop with my backhand with a fast forearm movement and stop with this just holding the racket to the ball with slow movements which make the ball go out.

So from what you are all saying is I should do a fast long serve to his backhand and make him uncomfortable this way where he can´t expect the balls always to his FH or is ready for a slowish to his BH side. And mix it with Sidetopspin aswell since he tends to "push" it. Avoid backhand sidespin balls to his forehand because he gets it back with his sidepush very effectively.

Against Stefan I will try long backspin balls to his Backhand more and just start looping from there. And the tomahawk serve that I mentioned. He has no spinny backhand so thats good for me.

 

[blahness]

I am super confused with the service explanation what is what. You explaining my service from a leftys perspective (I am a righty) confuses me even more. "

Can you give me timestamps maybe or a better explanation on what type of service I am giving them and where I positioned it? That would be very helpful.
From what I have seen in the video against half long backspin balls he can receive with a loop with his backhand. But I agree I never really served him fast to his backhand. I am also very slow after the serve so I never wanted a fast ball diagonally to my fh. I am more comfortable with slow long backspin balls where I can open up with my "spinny" loop technique.
In the first set at 20sec I keep trying to block his loops here to his fh side but it would all go out. Technically I should be much better at blocking nowadays. But yeah maybe I should be trying to counterloop with my backhand with a fast forearm movement and stop with this just holding the racket to the ball with slow movements which make the ball go out.

So from what you are all saying is I should do a fast long serve to his backhand and make him uncomfortable this way where he can´t expect the balls always to his FH or is ready for a slowish to his BH side. And mix it with Sidetopspin aswell since he tends to "push" it. Avoid backhand sidespin balls to his forehand because he gets it back with his sidepush very effectively.

Against Stefan I will try long backspin balls to his Backhand more and just start looping from there. And the tomahawk serve that I mentioned. He has no spinny backhand so thats good for me.

Lefty BH pendulum has same type of spin as righty FH pendulum. So if he is terrible against lefty BH pendulum to his BH, most likely he will also be terrible against righty FH pendulum to his BH.

You are correct in your interpretation for the most part. It is all about exploiting their passivity on their BH side. If they like BH pushing just serve short or fast ling sidetop or nospin to them, it will give you a free ball to attack. If they start trying to counter these balls, you can mix in even mild underspin long fast serves - they will net it for sure if they try to counter, even if they push it, it will be your opportunity ball to loop. Then after that confusion you can serve short to their FH in a way they dont like (for eg FH pendulum to the red shirt guy, or probably nospin for the black shirt guy). Then they will be confused af.

Since they dont attack with their BH much, just give them long balls to their BH on the receive, you will get a push back which will for sure be long, just loop those and you will win more than you lose.

 

[blahness]

Tip to loop heavy sideunder, sidetop services and stop being afraid of them.

So the idea is to go with the sidespin and not against it. What that means is: if the ball is spinning clockwise, hit it in a way to continue spinning it clockwise and so forth.

For eg with righty vs righty. FH looping against FH pendulum - better to fade loop it on the slightly left side or contact at back. Contacting on right side is going against the sidespin and may result in major loss of control when facing very strong sidespin.
FH looping against FH tomahawk or Bh pendulum, it is better to hook loop it ie contact a bit more towards right side.

Same principles apply for BH loop.

It is almost opposite to pushing - as it is easier to push against the sidespin but for loops it is easier to go with the sidespin than against it.

For sideunder approach the ball from below it, for sidetop approach the ball from back, for heavier sidetop close angle slightly and followthrough with your upper body weight leaning forward more (basically to force the ball down using body, not just by arm)

 

[blahness]

Black shirt guy repeatedly failed to loop red shirt guy's BH pendulum serve because he was trying to contact on right side ie hook loop it which is basically the hardest way to loop that particular sidespin archetype (regardless of it being sidetop or sideunder).

 

[Zezima]

I tend to loop against the spin vs the long side backspin and as you said its very uncontrolled.

Black shirt guy repeatedly failed to loop red shirt guy's BH pendulum serve because he was trying to contact on right side ie hook loop it which is basically the hardest way to loop that particular sidespin archetype (regardless of it being sidetop or sideunder).

Is there a good video explaining this concept? Against short serves I perform much better but they serve long sidespin vs me. Righty vs Righty I tend to loop it even against the spin somehow but vs a leftie like him its way harder because I also have to move even if I want to hit it against the sidespin. And pushing those serves is exactly what they both want me to do in case its not a straight error by me.
Also placement wise I struggle to put it where I want because I am just focused on bringing the ball back on the table. In training I have no problems because noone can serve with this much sidespin.

 

[Zezima]

So you say when looping hit it like this but this is also hard to aim to this lefties forehand or even to the middle. This sidespin makes the ball go to his backhand or even out if hit like this (hook).