ATTC 2024, Astana, 10/7-13

[blahness]

Kim Kum Yong and the Indian team is finally bringing the advanced version of pushblocking all the way to the top of pro TT. This is the way.

Now we need a Jpen RSM like player with crazy hidden serves + FH loopkill coupled with LP on the backside for twiddling for the ultimate braintwist/brainrot playstyle.

 

[fore.n.back]

LSD's "absolute territory" is from the mid-range and beyond, whereas Harimoto's is in the close-range. LSD got off to a great start in G1 but that side-underspin pendulum serve at 2:8 marked the start of Harimoto's counterattack, which involved alternating between half-long and long serves to LSD's BH, a simple yet effective tactic. Along with the edge at 3:8 and net at 5:8, LSD's flow was completely disrupted. Once Harimoto got in the groove, he dictated the pace and LSD couldn't keep up at all. Of note here is the crucial TO at 9:6 of G2 for Harimoto after 9:5. Kudos to Tasei if he was the one that called it.

Beside Harimoto can alternate between blocks and counter which makes Lin unable to increase the pace as he wish to. This was the same case we've seen when he's dealing with Fan ZD, but Fan was able to overcome by pivoting while Lin can't. Trying to rally like Togami and he'll push Lin out to his strong mid range platform

 

[rpb23]

Here's a shot of the serve ace he got to win that 18:16 game. He's definitely got a way of willing himself to victory with his service game!

View attachment 32521

😆just watched the WT presentation ceremony. The Chinese women as they turned to step down, without exception, took off their silver medals before even leaving the podium.
Is this the worst showing of CNT girls since the Moscow Debacle?

LOL! For most countries, winning silver in table tennis feel like a winner; for Chinese silver means a loser in shame. Winning, especially winning a lot can really spoil your psychology

 

[rpb23]

No, he does pretty well with it. His specialty is his BH drive. He's more proficient than most (possibly any) and often mixes that in during BH/BH rallies for direct winners. The issue is that this entire tournament that shot hasn't been working. In fact drives just haven't been working for anyone even on the FH side as they all go long. We've gone back in time to the age where BH rallies are all spin counters.

LSD had great BH to BH fast exchanges resulting he came up on top vs. Ma Long in China Smash. In ATTC the shots was just not there or downgraded. I think seamless ball may have something to do it and he just was slower to adapt. A more reasonable explanation is he simply just too tired, not just physically but mentally. Even at 19 years old, playing non-stop in a whole months of 4 events where he reached almost all finals including MD and XD certainly taking a heavy toll on him.
Many years ago, I could play tournament whole day, now only half day. After morning match, I was just not myself in the afternoon often losing to lower rated players.

 

[FIXPOINT]

2024 ATTC WS Final

 

[FIXPOINT]

2024 ATTC MS Final

 

[turbozed]

I don't follow here -- isn't Harimoto known for playing exactly this way, i.e., ceding the initiative and letting the opponent open the rally? So by this logic, shouldn't Harimoto be a good matchup for LSD?

I believe we have enough evidence that Harimoto matches up well with LSD, since he's won 2 out of 3, and even in the match he lost (in Macao 2024) he actually won more points for the whole match. What I noticed from the ATTC final was Harimoto was consistently trying to make his first attack down the middle and LSD being hesitant to step around and counter with his forehand, often giving weaker backhand counters from his middle that let Harimoto really break open the point.

My feeling w/ LSD is he's shot-maker who favors patterns where he has clear targets, and his strength is his ability to hit those targets with remarkable quality and consistency from both wings. But Harimoto plays a very cagey game where he covers the table well and plays with spin and pace variation down the middle, which doesn't present LSD with any obvious targets to aim for, and causes him to be hesitant in the rallies.

That was how I saw the rallying going too. Harimoto seemed to do a good job mixing up the placement both deep/shallow, and middle/wide with different pacing. It seemed like he was going to LSD's elbow a lot and it was unpredictable enough where LSD played it with a decent enough BH but which took him out of position which ended up degrading the rally for him just slightly.

Harimoto seemed committed to wininng the BH rally with setups that took 3 or 4 plus shots, rather than just simple 2 shot combos like middle then wide. He wasn't trying to overpower with his BH and limited his killshot attempts to down-the-line shots when he thought LSD was out of position.

He did commit to his FH shots though, and he's gotten his FH to be so dangerous that people aren't as keen to hit there. This really rounded out his game and it's pretty amazing how far he's come with it since having a basically 0 FH game early last year.

A lot of people are framing this Harimoto win in context of making up for and finding confidence somehow after a devastating 2024 Olympic dissappointment. That's impressive on its own to bounce back like that in a couple months.

But really this seems like the culmination of a couple years of reworking his game and trial-and-error stumbling along the way. Last year we had people saying he's not evolving at all and stuck in the mud. But I think it's proven now that he must've worked extremely hard and planned on creating this cagey BH game as you say and then supporting it with a very powerful FH that he can get past even the best of players.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

Kim Kum Yong and the Indian team is finally bringing the advanced version of pushblocking all the way to the top of pro TT. This is the way.

Now we need a Jpen RSM like player with crazy hidden serves + FH loopkill coupled with LP on the backside for twiddling for the ultimate braintwist/brainrot playstyle.

i know a few ones like that in my league. or even one which loopkills with LP and uses the backside for twiddling

 

[blahness]

i know a few ones like that in my league. or even one which loopkills with LP and uses the backside for twiddling

You mean loopkill with inverted right? But one can also attack with LP quite successfully too as a variation.

Yeah my practice partner plays that way but there are a lot of suboptimal things in his technique, and he actually beats some ex semipros that I cannot beat at all. I bet if a professional player does this, it will be such a nasty surprise to all the current top pros.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

You mean loopkill with inverted right? But one can also attack with LP quite successfully too as a variation.

Yeah my practice partner plays that way but there are a lot of suboptimal things in his technique, and he actually beats some ex semipros that I cannot beat at all. I bet if a professional player does this, it will be such a nasty surprise to all the current top pros.

no no he plays JPEN with LP (with thin sponge) , his loop are ofc much slower than inverted and less spinny but he's still attacking with this. ball is still quite fast and float, its a nightmare. he's one of the strongest players in our local tournaments. got a few dans by getting to best-8 in national masters 30+ tournament

 

[blahness]

no no he plays JPEN with LP (with thin sponge) , his loop are ofc much slower than inverted and less spinny but he's still attacking with this. ball is still quite fast and float, its a nightmare. he's one of the strongest players in our local tournaments. got a few dans.

Imagine if he also had a crazy inverted loopkill to boot, and twiddles to confuse ppl.

I'm sure pros would be able to make this inverted/LP penhold style seem even more OP and unbalanced. Sometimes, it is just no one really tried.

Plus with penhold they can use RPB too which adds another layer of complexity.

 

[driversbeat]

Viscaria/Tenergy 64/Curl P1V

It's a little blurry, but you can roughly make out the 64 here.

Clearly P1V

Does anyone know/can make an educated guess of the thickness?

 

[omelet]

Do yall think LSD vs Harimoto elbow position played a role in the BH vs BH rallies? Harimotos elbow is resting higher which allows quicker counter and drives. LSD's elbow is a bit more relaxed and moves when driving and blocking, but allow whip-like motion and added speed/speed when going full out but also requires slightly longer recovery time and chance of getting caught out in the elbow..

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

Imagine if he also had a crazy inverted loopkill to boot, and twiddles to confuse ppl.

I'm sure pros would be able to make this inverted/LP penhold style seem even more OP and unbalanced. Sometimes, it is just no one really tried.

Plus with penhold they can use RPB too which adds another layer of complexity.

yeh ... im sure he can loopkill with his inverted side, its just that ive not seen him use it. he doesn't need it against poor us

 

[zeio]

I don't follow here -- isn't Harimoto known for playing exactly this way, i.e., ceding the initiative and letting the opponent open the rally? So by this logic, shouldn't Harimoto be a good matchup for LSD?

I believe we have enough evidence that Harimoto matches up well with LSD, since he's won 2 out of 3, and even in the match he lost (in Macao 2024) he actually won more points for the whole match. What I noticed from the ATTC final was Harimoto was consistently trying to make his first attack down the middle and LSD being hesitant to step around and counter with his forehand, often giving weaker backhand counters from his middle that let Harimoto really break open the point.

My feeling w/ LSD is he's shot-maker who favors patterns where he has clear targets, and his strength is his ability to hit those targets with remarkable quality and consistency from both wings. But Harimoto plays a very cagey game where he covers the table well and plays with spin and pace variation down the middle, which doesn't present LSD with any obvious targets to aim for, and causes him to be hesitant in the rallies.

Yes, Harimoto is known for his 貼防 in recent years, literally "paste defense", a description of the motion of the blocking stroke. With his defense, his game is centered around 破壞三五板/breaking his opponent's first 3 or 5 shots on receiving so that they can't put in the first shot and then 優勢進入相持/go into the rally with an advantage, similar to 破壞一傳/breaking the first pass in volleyball. However, his tendency to rely/fall back on his defense gets increasingly exploited when he fails to contain his opponent. 9:5 of G2 is a prime example.

Harimoto is aware of that issue as he mentioned his focus had turned to honing his consistency to reduce the fluctuations in his results but what happened at Paris 2024 made him realize that offense is still the key when it comes to winning matches.

Miyazaki described him as basically a defensive player after Zennihon Takkyu 2024 in the episode Going! that aired on 2024/1/28.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...-be-revamped-for-paris-2024.24977/post-478232

Harimoto vows transforming his playing style, stressing how it all comes down to attacking, while reflecting how he was pinned to the BH by FZD.

張本智和、２８年ロス五輪で「絶対メダル」　攻撃型へ変身「攻めてなんぼ『張本、攻めてる』という状況を増やす」
https://hochi.news/articles/20240827-OHT1T51155.html?page=1

　日本卓球協会は２７日、東京都内で関係者らを招いてパリ五輪の報告会を行った。男子団体４位、男子単８強のエース・張本智和（２１）＝智和企画＝は２８年ロサンゼルス、３２年ブリスベン五輪の２大会で「絶対にメダル」と目標を掲げた。実現のために、気付いたことをメモすることを始め、プレーも攻撃的なスタイルに進化する。出場３種目でメダルに届かなかったパリ大会の雪辱へ、３１日のＴリーグ初戦でリスタートを切る。

　雪辱へ向けた歩みはすでに始まっていた。３種目でメダルに届かなかったパリ大会から１３日に帰国し、１７日に練習を再開した張本智は「次の２大会で絶対にシングルスのメダルを取りたい。３０歳までの９年間が勝負」と覚悟を口にした。２８年ロサンゼルス、３２年ブリスベン五輪で、表彰台に上がることを自らに課した。

　行動を変えた。メモを取り課題を整理する。パリ五輪シングルス準々決勝後、「７―７の１球」と記した。金メダルの樊振東（はん・しんとう、中国）を３―２で追い詰めたが、３―３の最終ゲーム７―７からバック側を突かれ、７―１１で力尽きた。メモを取るタイプではなかったが、その日のうちにペンを走らせた。「ミスした球にフォーカスするのでなく、課題を整理した。（帰国後）メモを見ながら、課題が一つひとつできるようになっている」

　もう一つの進化はプレースタイルだ。頭から消えないのは、団体準決勝のスウェーデン戦。第５試合で２―０から逆転負けした。パリ前までは、成績の振れ幅をなくすために「安定感」を重点的に磨いてきたが、試合を決める術（すべ）の重要性を感じた。「守りはできる。やはり攻めてなんぼだった。失敗はいいので『張本、攻めてる』という状況を増やしていく」と攻撃的な卓球にシフトする。「この悪い記憶をいいもの、悪いものにするかは今後の自分次第」と言い切った。

　３１日に琉球の一員で臨む金沢とのＴリーグ初戦で再出発を切る。国際大会は９月のＷＴＴチャンピオンズ・マカオ大会から出場し、１０月のアジア選手権ではタイトルを目指す。「『張本は強い』と意識付けたい。この４年はスタイル、戦術を増やし、後悔なく努力したい」と張本。エースは真の強さを突き詰めていく。（宮下　京香）

張本智和「ピークの３０歳までに絶対にメダルを」　パリ五輪終え決意新た「次に向けて頑張る期間」
https://origin.daily.co.jp/general/2024/08/27/0018053790.shtml

 

[RefereeNumber2]

But really this seems like the culmination of a couple years of reworking his game and trial-and-error stumbling along the way. Last year we had people saying he's not evolving at all and stuck in the mud. But I think it's proven now that he must've worked extremely hard and planned on creating this cagey BH game as you say and then supporting it with a very powerful FH that he can get past even the best of players.

Yeah I think it's pretty underappreciated how Harimoto's game has developed, especially since his style is basically unique among the top tiers of men's players at the moment.

Your post made me think of an interesting cross-sport comparison for Harimoto: Andy Murray (now retired, but I'll describe both in the present tense). They were both hyped juniors who play(ed) a counter-punching/placement /pace variation game rather than all-out power, despite having efficient and powerful strokes off of both wings. Their tendency to play passively occasionally gets them into trouble against lower-ranked opponents that they should be expected to beat easily, but they also consistently challenge the (other) top players. Early in Murray's career, many wondered whether he had peaked, and doubted that he would ever be able to break through against the big three and win a slam, etc. But he gradually added more dimensions and aggressiveness to his game and eventually achieved the number 1 ranking, won three grand slams and two Olympics gold medals in his career. Ofc it's impossible to say whether Harimoto will be able to reach comparable heights, but his recent improvements are some sign he might be on that path.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

no one talking about the 22 match losses by CNT?

 

[backspacer]

no one talking about the 22 match losses by CNT?

The whole CNT retired. Nothing to talk about.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

The whole CNT retired. Nothing to talk about.

Japan had 3 golds, 2 silver, 3 bronze against China's 2 gold, 2 silver, 1 bronze

China only nearly beat North Korea who had 1 gold, 1 silver, 1 bronze

20 losses against foreigners in a space of a week (not including SYS inj withdrawal), not surprised if the whole CNT included coaches retired by today

Womens
SYS lost 2 times
WYD lost 2 times
CXY lost 2 times
KM lost 1 time
SXY lost 1 time
KM/CST lost 1 time

Mens
WCQ lost 2 times
LJK lost 3 times
XYB lost 1 time
XP lost 1 time
LSD lost 1 time
LJK/XYB lost 1 time
LGY/LSD lost 1 time

XD
LGY/WYD lost 1 time

 

[turbozed]

Yeah I think it's pretty underappreciated how Harimoto's game has developed, especially since his style is basically unique among the top tiers of men's players at the moment.

Your post made me think of an interesting cross-sport comparison for Harimoto: Andy Murray (now retired, but I'll describe both in the present tense). They were both hyped juniors who play(ed) a counter-punching/placement /pace variation game rather than all-out power, despite having efficient and powerful strokes off of both wings. Their tendency to play passively occasionally gets them into trouble against lower-ranked opponents that they should be expected to beat easily, but they also consistently challenge the (other) top players. Early in Murray's career, many wondered whether he had peaked, and doubted that he would ever be able to break through against the big three and win a slam, etc. But he gradually added more dimensions and aggressiveness to his game and eventually achieved the number 1 ranking, won three grand slams and two Olympics gold medals in his career. Ofc it's impossible to say whether Harimoto will be able to reach comparable heights, but his recent improvements are some sign he might be on that path.

I'd argue that it's already working for Harimoto. He nearly beat FZD in the Olympics and now has beat LSD who was the China Smash winner. Getting to the point where you are at parity with the top Chinese players is already an achievement.

I also think it's really his only choice to maximize his chance of winning with the attributes he has. When he was young he relied a lot on his speed to allow him to attack. That speed is now gone now that he's a grown adult.

So he's got to lean into his quick reactions and fine control of the rally. When he's actually able to attack with the big FH it's because he had to set it up, rather than through pure athleticism.

I also think he's got some issue where he's less able to handle fast unexpected shots to his FH compared to the pros at his level. I see him completely whiff on FH's way more than anyone else. It might be some sort of dominant eye issue, which is a reason why he has that serve where his head is completely turned to look at the ball up until contact.

I'm left eye dominant and have this issue so my BH is also stronger than my FH, especially when I need to move to cover wide FH. I don't outright whiff on balls, but I make bad contact on too many.