Blade defect after sealing?

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Hi,

I went to my local table tennis shop to seal two blades, one of them was my Xiom 36.5 ALX. The shop is one of the major table tennis shops in Germany

My blade was almost in a perfect condition, and it was perfectly smooth. After they sealed it, it looks like this (see picture).

What the hell happened here? :(
 

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A picture can muddle things more than 1000 words can clear up. Can you describe what it is that you think you're seeing?

I just see a few lighter streaks. Your wording ("it was perfectly smooth") seems to suggest it's not perfectly smooth anymore. If so, there might be delamination going on; that fine-looking blade might not have been so perfect after all. A hidden flaw in the upper layer's bonding might have come to light.

As to the sealing/sealant, do have any specifics? Water-based, poly-urethane? How much was applied?
 
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A picture can muddle things more than 1000 words can clear up. Can you describe what it is that you think you're seeing?

I just see a few lighter streaks. Your wording ("it was perfectly smooth") seems to suggest it's not perfectly smooth anymore. If so, there might be delamination going on; that fine-looking blade might not have been so perfect after all. A hidden flaw in the upper layer's bonding might have come to light.

As to the sealing/sealant, do have any specifics? Water-based, poly-urethane? How much was applied?
I went to the shop again. the staff looked at it and confirmed the wood is coming up. the guy who sealed it even remember that the surface was smooth before

by chance, there was a carpenter in the shop. he looked at the blade and said there might be a defect from a faulty glueing process. basically I got a faulty or defect model was the conclusion
 
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that does really look odd. basically it looks as if you would put a rubber with the wrong glue onto the blade and then pull the rubber off taking off with it slices of the wood fibre.

funny that these things can happen by simply applying sealing (which you could have done by yourself as well).

Wait, i remember using some german sealing that alleged to keep the elasticity from the blade and that also looked like that at a point. Fun fact, it was also a Xiom blade (dont remember if AZXi, TMXi or HAL). When i noticed it i thought that it was me removing a rubber that would have caused it.

Best take that case to xiom and see what they say.
 
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The sealers penetrate the veneer AND the Bond behind qas softening AND popup.
Yes, this is what the carpenter told me aswell. He said there is a similar effect sometimes with very old regular tables (that are produced in a similar glueing and pressing method)

I got in touch with Xiom and the shop that sold me the blade. Hopefully, the problem can be resolved, because the piece I received is definitely defect
 
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I'm just gonna get crucified again, but whatever...

I'm sorry but your carpenter is wrong. The amount of water in a sealing product is not enough to seep into the blade, nor the amount of time the wood is exposed to it. Even if it was, nobody is using water soluble glue nowadays (hide, bone,etc). Most glues nowadays are D3 or D4 classification, that means they are water resistant.

Yoass already pointed it out quite well, your fine looking blade was not so perfect after all. All the sealing did was expose a pre-existing defect. The wood expanded with the water and lifted up in the spots where there was already no bond. So, don't blame the shop that did the job, blame the manufacturer.
 
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I'm just gonna get crucified again, but whatever...

I'm sorry but your carpenter is wrong. The amount of water in a sealing product is not enough to seep into the blade, nor the amount of time the wood is exposed to it. Even if it was, nobody is using water soluble glue nowadays (hide, bone,etc). Most glues nowadays are D3 or D4 classification, that means they are water resistant.

Yoass already pointed it out quite well, your fine looking blade was not so perfect after all. All the sealing did was expose a pre-existing defect. The wood expanded with the water and lifted up in the spots where there was already no bond. So, don't blame the shop that did the job, blame the manufacturer.
now im wondering should i seal my blade or not
 
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Am I imagining things or did it happen to my other blade too? (I sealed two blades in my local shop today)

Are you sure it couldnt have been the sealing? @hipnotic

When I slide my finger from left to right, the FH side is completly smooth, the BH side has some bumbs.

This blade is totally new and only got sealed, nothing else happened to it. near the handle it seems like there is some wood lifting up.. I just hope I am wrong
 
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Hi,

I went to my local table tennis shop to seal two blades, one of them was my Xiom 36.5 ALX. The shop is one of the major table tennis shops in Germany

My blade was almost in a perfect condition, and it was perfectly smooth. After they sealed it, it looks like this (see picture).

What the hell happened here? :(
Never seen anything like this and I sealed within 2 years 20+ blades, but I always use good old fashioned oil based varnish. It would be interesting to see what they used and how they did it…

Cheers
L-zr
 
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Hello, it's a shame to see your blade in that condition. I share "hipnotic's" opinion. The veneers of your blade have been poorly glued. It is possibly a manufacturing defect, either due to insufficient glue, uneven distribution on the surface, and/or the pressing force and time.

Do you have the same issue on the other side of the blade?
 
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Hello, it's a shame to see your blade in that condition. I share "hipnotic's" opinion. The veneers of your blade have been poorly glued. It is possibly a manufacturing defect, either due to insufficient glue, uneven distribution on the surface, and/or the pressing force and time.

Do you have the same issue on the other side of the blade?
Thank you. It mostly happened on only one side, the other side seems okay. Actually Xiom responded to me that they will send me a replacement blade, acknowledging that because of the 36.5 Cold Press process, it could happen that sealant might cause issues in some cases.

Now, I am worried that the other blade also got damaged during the sealing today. As I said, the BH side has some bumbs, while the FH side is smooth. It is not as pronounced as with my 36.5 ALX, but still, those are damn expensive blades.. I am disappointed to say the least
 
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Ok, sorry if I am bashing Xiom but I also had a not so good experience with Xiom few years ago. The top ply of my blade just separated from the carbon layer somehow without any help from my side. I still the same issue which is basically that their manufacturing process/raw materials selection is not so good .
 
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Please let me know what you think. First pic is FH, second is BH.

It seems to me that on BH side, it happened again on my second blade that also got sealed today.

I hope I am wrong, please let me know what you think
I can see it in your photos !

The first thing is to know what type of sealer was used to determine if it has a water-based or alcohol-based base. Water-based sealers tend to slightly swell the wood fibers, and when you touch it with your hand, it feels a bit rough and bumpy (this is normal). You should wait for it to dry completely and then sand it lightly with a fine grit (between 240 and 500) to level the wood veneer and make it smooth again. With an alcohol-based sealer, this doesn’t happen since the alcohol evaporates quickly.

In the BH photo, the roughness is clearly visible. Can you ask at the store what type of sealer was used? If you want to check if the fiber has detached, you can gently press with the eraser of a pencil on the areas with high roughness. If you see movement of the wood in any direction, it means it has come loose. If it doesn’t move, it is probably the sealer that has saturated the fibers (if that's the case, just sand it as I mentioned before).

Regrads !
 
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I can see it in your photos !

The first thing is to know what type of sealer was used to determine if it has a water-based or alcohol-based base. Water-based sealers tend to slightly swell the wood fibers, and when you touch it with your hand, it feels a bit rough and bumpy (this is normal). You should wait for it to dry completely and then sand it lightly with a fine grit (between 240 and 500) to level the wood veneer and make it smooth again. With an alcohol-based sealer, this doesn’t happen since the alcohol evaporates quickly.

In the BH photo, the roughness is clearly visible. Can you ask at the store what type of sealer was used? If you want to check if the fiber has detached, you can gently press with the eraser of a pencil on the areas with high roughness. If you see movement of the wood in any direction, it means it has come loose. If it doesn’t move, it is probably the sealer that has saturated the fibers (if that's the case, just sand it as I mentioned before).

Regrads !
Looking first a the photo that is exactly what I concluded, softer parts of the wood had swollen up. Then everybody started to scream """DELAMINATION"""". I honestly can not tell from those photos and without actually running my "detector-fingers" over the blade.

If XIOM replaces the blade please send the "broken one" to me for a light block-sanding. 😂
😂 😂
 
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The first photos were more concerning, it seemed too much just to be raised grain, but as Mamba pointed out, you can simply check if it moves or not. It's normal for wood grain to raise when exposed to water, and wood grain is not completely consistent and homogenous, so it can happen more in some locations. The second set of photos appear to show a normal amount of raised grain.
 
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now im wondering should i seal my blade or not
if your blade is glued like his (OP) then there is a chance that you rip the wood of it when you remove the rubbers, so just seal it.
it's not the sealing itself that ruins the blade.. there was something wrong with the lamination proces
 
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Please let me know what you think. First pic is FH, second is BH.

It seems to me that on BH side, it happened again on my second blade that also got sealed today.

I hope I am wrong, please let me know what you think
wait a day .. maybe it settles. If so, then there should be no problem when you attache the rubbers because the wood is sealed and no moist will influence the wood.
but honestly.. I wouldn't be happy.
 
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Man -- Xiom's QA processes are really heading down the toilet 🙄 My sincere condolences on being sold a lemon -- never a pleasant prospect.

In further news, it's interesting to me that Xiom (according to what they told you) are apparently embracing / using / trialling / shifting to cold press layups.... I wonder why that is? 🤔🤔 Given the volumes they do, I would have assumed they would be using a hot press to shorten the drying time.

In even further news, W.T. ACTUAL F. was that Xiom rep thinking???

Did they really just tell a customer exactly what press method and drying temp they using to make that particular blade????

Not only that, did they also just openly admit that their chosen manufacturing process actually makes their products more prone to defects / delamination when using water based sealant?????

That is either some really potentially internally sensitive manufacturing IP they are giving away for free, as well as a major manufacturing defect they are openly admitting to.... Or else they're just feeding you baseless bullshit*t to try and placate you.

Personally I don't buy that explanation they gave you for the wood swelling up. In my opinion, @hipnotic was spot on with his rationale for the failure. The fibers became saturated with the sealant base (most likely it was a water base sealant giving the amount of swelling present), and the expanding wood fibers exposed poor & uneven adhesion between veneer layers -- basically that blade just has a really bloody shitty glue line between its outers and medials --- end of story.

My point here is, a shitty glue line is ALWAYS a shitty glue line, and the type of lay-up and press temp you use to is irrelevant. Hot press, cold press, wet lay-up, dry lay up ... Frankly it shouldn't matter either way, it's still just a layer of wood, and all wood veneers expand in the presence of excess moisture, unless there's sufficient adhesive underneath the veneer to prevent it.

I can't speak for any other blade maker here, but I honestly can't think of any cold-press-specific production variable that would make a blade more prone to failure in the presence of sealant.

The issue is with their glue application, or their glue dosage, or the glue type, or glue viscosity, or their surface prep, or their drying times, or their psi settings, or the ambient temp and humidity in the factory during manufacture, or their veneer manufacturing processes itself... The fact they (apparently) use a cold press to make the blade, at (apparently) 36.5 degrees celsius really shouldn't matter 🤨🤨🤨 Nothing about using a cold press should make a blade panel inherently prone to failure in the presence of sealant.... To my mind at least, the entire notion is just complete codswallop.

Please pardon my venom here folks, but if there's one thing I can't stomach it's the idea of people being lied to over product features. Large manufacturers ALREADY like to use complete codswallop to sell their blades... Seems they also like to do the same to defend a low quality product, and again I'm sorry, but that really just shits me.
 
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