China Smash 2024, Beijing, 9/26-10/6

[turbozed]

Don't go up on your opponent 9-5 on Table 1 because it never ends well.

Edit: Even the Goat Ma Long mentioned this lol

 

[NextLevel]

Don't go up on your opponent 9-5 on Table 1 because it never ends well.

Edit: Even the Goat Ma Long mentioned this lol

He admitted to being inspired by Ito's approach. Amazing and food for thought.

 

[driversbeat]

3 smash quarters in a row for Ito. Not too shabby.

 

[FIXPOINT]

China Smash 2024 WS R16

 

[FIXPOINT]

China Smash 2024 MS R16

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

3 smash quarters in a row for Ito. Not too shabby.

she sounds better than Wang 32
maybe Mr 32 must retire

 

[zeio]

I think Felix's issue is that he doesn't do anything particularly special, he's just exceptionally solid in every phase of the game. Against most others, this allows him to be very consistent in coming up on top, especially in tight games when he can fall back to his solid-as-rock fundamentals. Against the CNT though, everyone from the top of the B team upward is very solid in every phase of the game, so every game against that level and upward is gonna be at least a slugfest for him. CNT A teamers usually bring something extra, like LJK with his power, LGY with his quickness, WCQ with his big head , etc. and then you have the champions like ML and FZD who bring a lots of extras. Felix is still young though, when ML was younger he was just solid, with nothing extra to make him championship quality, so he can still develop it.

Wang Chao actually said otherwise, specifically naming Moregard and the Lebrun brothers. See below.

The problem for Felix is that he's missing those extra years that Harimoto, Moregard and Alexis had before they got the full attention of the CNT. Compare to Harimoto, Moregard and Alexis, Felix will have an even harder time to "grow" his game from now on. CNT will prevent that by solidifying/reinforcing their psychological advantage over Felix at every chance they get, like how Alexis does to him.

Xu Xin: This was the first time I analyzed Lebrun’s penhold on the spot. He will feel increasingly uncomfortable the more he plays against the CNT
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...able-the-more-he-plays-against-the-cnt.33242/

Wang Chao: We've been Surpassed in Third Ball
https://web.archive.org/web/2024020...7596502257&w=BuJ5f1RK24K4pXPriFoYxL812UMnOv6C

Took the time to transcribe the first video now that it's all but certain the Lebrun brothers have been promoted to the Great Wall of Opponents.

@0:22
发球就有六七套，国外年轻选手前三板技术已领先我们，威胁越来越大
https://video.weibo.com/show?fid=1034:4857019086340150
主教练 王超 河南省乒乓球男队
Head Coach Wang Chao Henan Men's Table Tennis Team

今年(2022年)我看了几站公开赛
This year (2022), I watched a few Opens
像法国两个
like that French
兄弟俩还有
brothers and
瑞典那个叫什么高德
What is the name of the Swedish one?
莫雷高德 这几个小孩
Moregard, those children
他们你看 首先他们变化很多
Looking at them, first thing is they have a lot of variations
他们对球这种理解就是我一看
Their comprehension of table tennis is, from what I see
他发球都有五六甚至六七套
He has 5, 6 or even 7 sets of serve
你像(艾利克斯·勒布伦)
Like (Alexis Lebrun)
法国这个横板 他是哥哥吧
the shakehander of France, he is the older brother, right?
他这打球这种技战术变化特别多
He plays with a lot of technical and tactical variations
就跟这个老的这种概念
Unlike the old concept
咱们就是(发球)两套三套都不错了
For us, just having 2 to 3 sets (of serve) is already decent
中规中矩
Moderate
他现在是一会这样发一会那样发
Now he serves this way here and that way there
就是你很难适应的
it's hard for you to adapt
就变化特别多
lots of variations
而且他弟弟(菲利克斯·勒布伦)的直板
And there is his penholder brother (Felix Lebrun)
他这个反手技术不比咱们国家(选手)
His backhand technique is not below our (players)
差 他们一直在模仿
They have been imitating
一直他们自己在咱们的前提下
They have been, under our premise
他们还有改进 我觉得
They improve upon that, I think
我问的法国这个
I asked
以前我的队友刘芳
my former teammate Liu Fang in France
说法国这两个兄弟是不是中国人
Are the two French brothers coached by Chinese?
带他们 说不是
She said no
他们也是从小就开始全天候的训练
They also started training around the clock from an early age
跟咱们中国这种一样
Same as us in China
他就不读书天天练
They don't study and practice every day
还是不一样
They are not typical
你像同龄来说咱们不好赢人家 同龄的
At the same age, it is not easy for us to win, the same age
包括
Also
瑞典的莫雷高德他的球就是
Moregard of Sweden, his game is
挺快挺凶的
quite fast and aggressive
他就是后面他不跟你打
He is the one who doesn't play out the point with you
前面前三板技术我觉得他们现在已经
In terms of third ball techniques, I think they now
可能已经超过咱们 [一些]
may have surpassed us [by a bit]
我觉得我个人(认为)
I think, I personally (think)
就他们球变化多特别凶
As far as their variations and aggressiveness
咱们现在相对来说好像就是
relatively speaking, we now seem to be
怎麼说呢
how to put it
偏稳了一点
a bit on the safe side
就前面发接发球变化
Say service and receive variations
咱们我觉得有点偏单一了一点
I think we are a little bit simplistic
就跟他们这几个人相比
compared to them
就他们可能也代表欧洲
They may also represent Europe's
下面的一个潮流
trend down the road
对我们我觉得还是有一定的威胁
I think they still pose a certain threat to us
因为他们小啊现在
because they are young now
他(莫雷高德)继承一些老瓦的特点
He (Moregard) inherited some of Waldner's characteristics
一些特点
some traits
有时他们打球你觉得很
Sometimes they play and you feel strongly
就是没有什么常规的这种感觉
that there's no pattern
东弄一下西弄一下
here and there
你很难 不好适应
Very difficult for you to adapt
对 他就是变化比较多
Right, he has relatively more variations
国外队员都有一个特点
Foreign players have a common trait
你像日本这些队员包括他们国外(其他选手)
like those of Japan, and the other overseas (players)
他比赛打太多了
He plays so many competitions
他国际比赛比你丰富的多
His international competition is much richer than yours
咱们现在基本上都没打过什么比赛
We have hardly played any competitions now
因为这三年疫情在这
because of the pandemic the past 3 years
好多就包括别说省队了
Many, not to mention the provincial teams
国家队队员好多
many national team players
比赛机会也不多
not many chances to play
就是你一比咱们天天就是练
In comparison, we practice every day
人家天天在赛
and they compete every day
你上去你容易发蒙
You get disoriented easily when you get up there at first
他变化特别多
He has a lot of variations
所以这方面也是
So in this aspect
就是这种(有差距)
there is (a gap)
如果像咱们省队 包括我们这的队员
If our provincial teams, including our players
你如果全部让他们去
if you let them all go out
扔出去打打比赛
throw them out there to compete
他就好的多
they would be much better
比赛经验这个
Match experience is
是通过比赛积累的
accumulated through competitions
不是说你光训练 你达不到那个
You can't achieve that through mere practice
很难达到那个
Very hard to achieve that
心理状态
mental state
你不好去提高了
It's not easy to improve that
比赛这种能力是必须通过比赛去提高
The ability to compete must be improved through competition

 

[driversbeat]

Lots of people talking smack in the chat, but Mima makes a great comeback to shut them up. Great win for Mima!

To be fair, Ito played pretty badly for the entire match. I don't think KNY took her foot off the peddle at the end. Ito just went for her shots. 100% rate from 5-9 to 11-9. Got a glimpse of 2019 Ito from those points.

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

To be fair, Ito played pretty badly for the entire match. I don't think KNY took her foot off the peddle at the end. Ito just went for her shots. 100% rate from 5-9 to 11-9. Got a glimpse of 2019 Ito from those points.

I wouldn't say the entire match. I also think KNY's service game has gotten considerably stronger forcing errors from Mima. KNY took out Hirano and was playing really well against Mima. Her level has definitely gone up. Mima had to draw upon her years of experience and showed a lot of mental toughness at the end.

 

[zeio]

3 smash quarters in a row for Ito. Not too shabby.

Until you look beyond that. Ito seemingly played better than the others when it mattered the least. For Singapore Smash 2024, Saudi Smash 2024 and now China Smash 2024, she had nothing to lose, unlike Hayata and Hirano who had to keep up the training/playing intensity for Paris 2024 after WTTC 2024, and for the latter, who should've taken an extended break afterward to let her knee heal, got back to training almost immediately.

Let's keep in mind Ito had the lowest win rate against CNT players (only beating KM once ) in the previous cycle (which included Singapore Smash 2024 and Saudi Smash 2024). She "spectacularly" failed to achieve what she set out at the very beginning, which was to beat CNT in WS and WD, which has been conveniently forgotten. I'm not holding my breath for her new goal as WR1.

For the LA 2028 cycle, Kihara, Ito and Hirano have now lost to non-CNT players shortly after Paris 2024. For Harimoto, losing to teammate Sasao due to leg cramp was atypical as well. Given the above and with Hayata being away, the current situation is a growing concern.

LA 2028 Cycle
WTT CT Almaty 2024
R16 Kihara 1-3 Yoo Siwoo (-8, 11, -9, -10) [1st tourney]
WTT CS Macao 2024
R16 Joo Cheonhui 3-0 Ito (7, 10, 7) [1st tourney]
China Smash 2024
R64 Polcanova 3-2 Kihara (-8, 9, -7, 10, 7)
R32 Hirano 2-3 Kim Nayeong (10, 13, -11, -9, -7) [2nd tourney]

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

Until you look beyond that. Ito seemingly played better than the others when it mattered the least. For Singapore Smash 2024, Saudi Smash 2024 and now China Smash 2024, she had nothing to lose, unlike Hayata and Hirano who had to keep up the training/playing intensity for Paris 2024 after WTTC 2024, and for the latter, who should've taken an extended break afterward to let her knee heal, got back to training almost immediately.

Let's keep in mind Ito had the lowest win rate against CNT players (only beating KM once ) in the previous cycle (which included Singapore Smash 2024 and Saudi Smash 2024). She "spectacularly" failed to achieve what she set out at the very beginning, which was to beat CNT in WS and WD, which has been conveniently forgotten. I'm not holding my breath for her new goal as WR1.

For the LA 2028 cycle, Kihara, Ito and Hirano have now lost to non-CNT players shortly after Paris 2024. For Harimoto, losing to teammate Sasao due to leg cramp was atypical as well. Given the above and with Hayata being away, the current situation is a growing concern.

LA 2028 Cycle
WTT CT Almaty 2024
R16 Kihara 1-3 Yoo Siwoo (-8, 11, -9, -10) [1st tourney]
WTT CS Macao 2024
R16 Joo Cheonhui 3-0 Ito (7, 10, 7) [1st tourney]
China Smash 2024
R64 Polcanova 3-2 Kihara (-8, 9, -7, 10, 7)
R32 Hirano 2-3 Kim Nayeong (10, 13, -11, -9, -7) [2nd tourney]

S. Korea's level is improving. Joo is not far off from SYB, KNY has obviously improved as well so there's going to be some overlap in wins between S. Korea and Japan. There's also the familiarity factor with S. Korean players playing in T-League in previous seasons as well as KNY playing doubles with Nagasaki. This is good competition for that 3rd spot in LA2028.

 

[Vlad Celler]

I wouldn't say the entire match. I also think KNY's service game has gotten considerably stronger forcing errors from Mima. KNY took out Hirano and was playing really well against Mima. Her level has definitely gone up. Mima had to draw upon her years of experience and showed a lot of mental toughness at the end.

So who should retire: Ito or Hirano?

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

So who should retire: Ito or Hirano?

Both are ranked in the top 12 in the world. So it's completely up to them if and when they want to retire.

 

[Vlad Celler]

What about Zeio?

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

What about Zeio?

Zeio should retire from bashing Hayata, Ito, CIC, and any others I've missed.

 

[zeio]

What about Zeio?

This is no laughing matter. Time is flying for them. They have roughly 3 to 5 years on average left to achieve their aspirations. They are about to peak physically, and things will get harder and harder after 25, when their odds will be in slow decline, so a chance not taken is an opportunity missed and a regret waiting to happen.

It's for that reason I first started voicing concerns about Ishikawa's career when she turned 23 years old. SYS also mentioned about being 23 and the rise of Harimoto in an interview ahead of WTTC 2023 (05/15/2023 at 4:14pm). Ito has also mulled quitting at 23. Back in 1/2017, Hirano told the media she wanted to retire at 23 and get married (see quote below). She expressed in a recent interview that despite being only 24, the next generation of young players like Takeya is 16 and she'll be competing against younger and younger players in the future who look to surpass their generation, so she'll have to keep herself updated to remain competitive. Hayata, with Hirano making a guest appearance, also touched on in episode #1302 of Jonetsu Tairiku the topic of retirement.

平野美宇が「寿引退」宣言　伊藤美誠「自分も」
https://www.nikkansports.com/sports/news/1771320.html

　卓球の全日本選手権女子シングルスで史上最年少１６歳９カ月で初優勝した平野美宇（エリートアカデミー）が「寿引退」を宣言した。

　２８日、都内で伊藤美誠（１６＝スターツ）とともにスポンサー契約を結んだ河合塾マナビスのイベントに参加。先輩の福原愛（２８＝ＡＮＡ）の結婚に話が及ぶと「結婚は小さい頃からの憧れ。子供の時は２３歳でしたいと思ったが、現状は厳しそう。引退したときに結婚相手がいることが理想」と「寿引退」を夢見た。

　平野の願望に関して、伊藤も「自分も引退してぱっぱっぱっという感じで（結婚）したい」と続けた。もっとも現在は２人とも恋人はいない。伊藤は「恋愛は全然ない」と、４カ月後の世界選手権（５月２９日～６月５日、ドイツ・デュッセルドルフ）に集中し、３年後の東京五輪まで卓球一筋を貫く覚悟がある。

 

[zeio]

S. Korea's level is improving. Joo is not far off from SYB, KNY has obviously improved as well so there's going to be some overlap in wins between S. Korea and Japan. There's also the familiarity factor with S. Korean players playing in T-League in previous seasons as well as KNY playing doubles with Nagasaki. This is good competition for that 3rd spot in LA2028.

KOR is not improving. It's JPN that's gotten weaker.

KOR's level has always been there but fluctuating. Their problem has always been one of management. Political infighting over the selection system has been the root cause for stagnation. This is the most harmonious and unified KNT in 2 decades with RSM, JSH, OSE et al. at the helm.

Before TWC 2019, where JJH/SYB took out Ishikawa/Hirano and CHJ pushed Ito to the brink, CHJ had a win over Ito in their first encounter and overwhelming H2H against Hayata. JJH had also gotten wins over Hayata and always gave her a hard time. Hirano, OTOH, had overwhelming H2Hs against CHJ and JJH.

Joo Cheonhui is better than SYB when it comes to CNT players, having pushed SYS and WMY to the final game, twice for the latter. As I noted over at MyTT, her problem has been choppers and combination players, against which SYB still has trouble handling.

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

KOR is not improving. It's JPN that's gotten weaker.

KOR's level has always been there but fluctuating. Their problem has always been one of management. Political infighting over the selection system has been the root cause for stagnation. This is the most harmonious and unified KNT in 2 decades with RSM, JSH, OSE et al. at the helm.

Before TWC 2019, where JJH/SYB took out Ishikawa/Hirano and CHJ pushed Ito to the brink, CHJ had a win over Ito in their first encounter and overwhelming H2H against Hayata. JJH had also gotten wins over Hayata and always gave her a hard time. Hirano, OTOH, had overwhelming H2Hs against CHJ and JJH.

Joo Cheonhui is better than SYB when it comes to CNT players, having pushed SYS and WMY to the final game, twice for the latter. As I noted over at MyTT, her problem has been choppers and combination players, against which SYB still has trouble handling.

SYB beat Miu Hirano when she should have been at her best at the Paris Olympics. Thankfully, Super Hina was able to withstand SYB to grab the bronze. SYB also beat Miwa and Szocs at 2023 Contender Lima. JCH has beaten a lot of good players, but has a ton of trouble against Miwa. I'm not sure I can put her in the same category as SYB as she doesn't have a WTT title yet. But we'll see ... she is very talented. Too early to tell, but Kim Nayeong showing good form here at the China Smash.

Japan has definitely gotten stronger vs. 4 years ago. They had a chance to pull off the upset over China at the 2024 WTTTC. They would have had no chance 4 years ago.

 

[dingyibvs]

Watching some of the short form replays available belatedly onYoutube and man, He Zhuojia is speed running this tournament. 11-1, 11-1, 11-4 against Zeng Jian, then another 3-0 victory against Zong Geman. Too bad she'll be facing WMY next who's a master at playing against pips, I would've like to see more games from her.

Also, re-watching the Lind vs. WCQ match, it seems like Lind has made an adjustment to his rallying general game, using more of that 1-inch-punch energy on both FH and BH, and it permeates throughout his game in both rallies and his opening flips and loops (more evident on the BH side). Smaller motion with smaller backswing, but a brief full explosion of force at the point of contact, very much like LSD. He's using that to counter attack far more often than before, in many situations where he used to block instead. Lind is a very smart player, I wonder if he's just the first of the "older" pros to pick up on this improved style of play.

 

[mossbeat]

Zeio should retire from bashing Hayata, Ito, CIC, and any others I've missed.

Yes, agreed. It seems a few people are obsessed with retiring talented women who have worked hard to get where they are. That's why there's a ranking system. If you apply these metrics to all players then most should retire because of a playing slump, age, or some other critique. Let's celebrate their talents and appreciate their inevitably colourful careers rather than constantly call for their retirement at every opportunity.