Clean ball opponent vs Junky opponent

[TensorBackhand]

I have 2 friends who I often play with, they're not as good as me but when they play well, they are reasonably competitive. When they play reasonably well, they would feel like 1800 and 1600 players to me.

However, I notice that when they play 1400 or 1500 players, they play much worse. They often will lose matches, and just end up playing worse than they do against me. I see them throwing away endless easy points. I think the reason is because my style is giving them what they want.

I will use topspin flicks and loops to open up points. I think this makes it more relaxing and free-flowing for them. They know its topspin and they can just react naturally. Also I think my spin tends to be more "pure" and clean. Also my length is kinda consistent and deep and comes into their strike range.

Against the 1400 junkier players, my friends kinda get pushed to death. They don't get the topspin shots that they want. Also, the pushes are not as consistent. The pushes feel more random, more or less spin, higher or lower, shorter or longer. The 1400 players isn't trying purposely to add variety, they just can't control the ball as well so their push is kinda random. Even in topspin-topspin situations, the ball isn't consistent in spin and length.

What else makes these kinda "junkier" players hard to play? What is the best advice to do better against junky players? Why do some players not seem to be bothered so much with the junky style?

 

[Aizen]

Problem might not be only the junkie opponent.
your friends might be used to your game, and they should be more relaxed while playing with you.

But against another player, they need more shot selection, more thinking, more attention, also it might be more tense.

I think it’s common thing and seems to me playing good in training versus worse in a match situation.

 

[SofaChamp]

Depends on what tactics you have available to yourself. For me, if I need to win points against unorthodox players I will just touch their serves back and try to stay in the rally. On my serve, do something simple where you can control the type of rally, for me this is either serve long, heavy backspin or long topspin to the player's weaker side and then topspin what comes back.

 

[Amayzde]

Well I wouldn’t call them junky players, I would rather call them passive players. They just keep the ball on the table, and they profit of your mistakes.

honestly I can’t count the amount of players that face these issues against passive players. And its not very hard to fix. The reason they do better against higher level players is probably because they don’t play as passive and its not up to them to open up the rally.

If you don’t like these pushing rallies, then don’t serve with backspin!
It seems obvious, but alot of people don’t seem to be aware of this. Especially long and fast topspin serves will often just result in a block return. Serving short float wil either give them a high ball, or a lower ball with barely any spin.

That would be the short term fix. In the long run I would recommend your friends to up their game to be able to topspin against backspin. Preferably on both sides, but at least with the forehand, it’s not a hard shot. If they can only play in open rallies, they can only play half of the game.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

A higher player may lose to these junkier player during the initial encounters but after a few sessions, it will be obvious why the junkier players remain at low level, that is, they cannot adapt to the higher level player while the higher level can adapt.

 

[Sims]

I have 2 friends who I often play with, they're not as good as me but when they play well, they are reasonably competitive. When they play reasonably well, they would feel like 1800 and 1600 players to me.

However, I notice that when they play 1400 or 1500 players, they play much worse. They often will lose matches, and just end up playing worse than they do against me. I see them throwing away endless easy points. I think the reason is because my style is giving them what they want.

I will use topspin flicks and loops to open up points. I think this makes it more relaxing and free-flowing for them. They know its topspin and they can just react naturally. Also I think my spin tends to be more "pure" and clean. Also my length is kinda consistent and deep and comes into their strike range.

Against the 1400 junkier players, my friends kinda get pushed to death. They don't get the topspin shots that they want. Also, the pushes are not as consistent. The pushes feel more random, more or less spin, higher or lower, shorter or longer. The 1400 players isn't trying purposely to add variety, they just can't control the ball as well so their push is kinda random. Even in topspin-topspin situations, the ball isn't consistent in spin and length.

What else makes these kinda "junkier" players hard to play? What is the best advice to do better against junky players? Why do some players not seem to be bothered so much with the junky style?

If your friends can't open up against backspin then I can't see how they'd be 1800 and 1600 players.
And if they can't control 'crappy/random' shots coming at them or win a pushing rally against worse players then I'd say it's worth revisiting the question of who is the worse player.

I think your fundamental assumptions are probably incorrect here because pushing, reading the ball and opening V backspin are all basic skills to be learned as early as possible and if done even half well then push players are no longer a problem.
In my opinion it's less likely to be the 'junky' style as you call it and more likely an overestimation of their skills because they look ok during a topspin rally...

 

[Wrighty67]

If your friends can't open up against backspin then I can't see how they'd be 1800 and 1600 players.
And if they can't control 'crappy/random' shots coming at them or win a pushing rally against worse players then I'd say it's worth revisiting the question of who is the worse player.

I think your fundamental assumptions are probably incorrect here because pushing, reading the ball and opening V backspin are all basic skills to be learned as early as possible and if done even half we'll then push players are no longer a problem.
In my opinion it's less likely to be the 'junky' style as you call it and more likely an overestimation of their skills because they look ok during a topspin rally...

Not sure I agree here - I am a reasonably advanced player who has all the necessary opening shots vs backspin, but in the heat of a match vs a lower level player with strong pushing skills or other "different" shots, I can still find myself caught out and missing open ups on my BH side - leading to loss of confidence and tightness and then problems in the game if I am not able to change things up in time.

I play much better against higher quality opponents than awkward opponents, who in my league are often older unconventional players or players using long pips or old shiny Mk V etc - these players are very tricky to beat as they force mistakes through the nature of the balls coming back at you.

 

[NDH]

I have 2 friends who I often play with, they're not as good as me but when they play well, they are reasonably competitive. When they play reasonably well, they would feel like 1800 and 1600 players to me.

However, I notice that when they play 1400 or 1500 players, they play much worse. They often will lose matches, and just end up playing worse than they do against me. I see them throwing away endless easy points. I think the reason is because my style is giving them what they want.

I will use topspin flicks and loops to open up points. I think this makes it more relaxing and free-flowing for them. They know its topspin and they can just react naturally. Also I think my spin tends to be more "pure" and clean. Also my length is kinda consistent and deep and comes into their strike range.

Against the 1400 junkier players, my friends kinda get pushed to death. They don't get the topspin shots that they want. Also, the pushes are not as consistent. The pushes feel more random, more or less spin, higher or lower, shorter or longer. The 1400 players isn't trying purposely to add variety, they just can't control the ball as well so their push is kinda random. Even in topspin-topspin situations, the ball isn't consistent in spin and length.

What else makes these kinda "junkier" players hard to play? What is the best advice to do better against junky players? Why do some players not seem to be bothered so much with the junky style?

Isn't this the same as every Junior ever?

Looks fantastic against the "traditional" top spin type play, but then looks AWFUL against an unconventional player (pips, chops, pushes etc).

The only way for your friends to get better here is to train and put that training into those matches.
The reality is, as soon as those 1400/1500 players come up against someone who is comfortable opening up with topspin on the FH and BH, it's game over.

In simple terms, your friends need to get better

 

[Sims]

Not sure I agree here - I am a reasonably advanced player who has all the necessary opening shots vs backspin, but in the heat of a match vs a lower level player with strong pushing skills or other "different" shots, I can still find myself caught out and missing open ups on my BH side - leading to loss of confidence and tightness and then problems in the game if I am not able to change things up in time.

I play much better against higher quality opponents than awkward opponents, who in my league are often older unconventional players or players using long pips or old shiny Mk V etc - these players are very tricky to beat as they force mistakes through the nature of the balls coming back at you.

I would have to ask what's the definition of higher quality then.
You define higher quality as more fast topspin shots? Because I can tell you right now that if you come across a high quality 'disruptive' type/style player you wont say you played better against them!
Having the shots needed and missing a few is normal, I'd consider that an adjustment to style. The initial struggle there is certainly real but do you lose to them as the OPs friends do?
Folks r gonna miss just as many shots V an superior attacker, because they have too much speed and spin, it's just not as frustrating.
It's very common for people to feel they've played much better V conventional opposition.
I've experienced in myself in competition. For example I played 2 singles V much higher opposition last yr, one a looping machine and one a chopping defense pips player who mixed everything.
After the pips game I felt deflated and dejected. I wasn't able to put it up to them at all and lost 6,6,7 - 19 PTS in 3 games.
V the pocket rocket I felt good even after losing, I felt like I'd put up a fight but it was mostly because I enjoyed playing against that style and hit a lot of good attacking shots. But my defeats were heavier 4,6,8. This player was younger faster better and I was beaten convincingly but felt better because I'd played my game, just not good enough.

Basically I think it's an open contradiction for anyone to say they struggle V lower/inferior opposition just because that player has a different style.
They're not inferior if they beat you!
If you still win then it's only adjusting V different styles imo.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Isn't this the same as every Junior ever?

Looks fantastic against the "traditional" top spin type play, but then looks AWFUL against an unconventional player (pips, chops, pushes etc).

The only way for your friends to get better here is to train and put that training into those matches.
The reality is, as soon as those 1400/1500 players come up against someone who is comfortable opening up with topspin on the FH and BH, it's game over.

In simple terms, your friends need to get better

 

[Wrighty67]

I challenge your definition of higher quality then.
You define higher quality as more fast topspin shots? Because I can tell you right now that if you come across a high quality 'disruptive' type/style player you wont say you played better against them.
Having the shots needed and missing a few is normal but you're gonna miss just as many shots V an superior attacker because they have too much speed and spin, it's just not as frustrating.
It's very common for people to feel they've played much better V conventional opposition.
I've experienced in myself in competition. For example I played 2 singles V much higher opposition last yr, one a looping machine and one a chopping defense pips player who mixed everything.
After the pips game I felt deflated, defeated and dejected. I wasn't able to put it up to them at all and lost 6,6,7. I got 19 PTS in 3 games.
V the pocket rocket I felt good after losing, I felt like I'd put up a fight but it was mostly because, even though I lost, I just enjoyed playing against that style more. But my defeats were heavier 4,6,8.
I was beaten more convincingly but felt better because I'd played some good (attractive looking) shots.

Basically I think it's an open contradiction for anyone to say they struggle V lower/inferior opposition just because that player has a different style.
They're not inferior if they beat you!

Those are fair points - I have many opponents who are higher quality and also non conventional / awkward players and they are more frustrating as you say. I would say that I tend to play up and increase my level vs conventional better players and often come closer to winning.

Vs lower level unconventional players I am still at risk of losing because I don't consistently impose my game with confidence as a result of tightening up and trying to avoid making unforced errors. If they win then I accept they were better but in many cases I should have had the game to beat them.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Playing against conventional players is like going into a pizzaria / chippies diners. You know exactly what is a pizza and what is fish&chips.

Playing against asian uncles / geezers / pippies is like walking into a Thai / Vietnamese / Szechuan restaurant in a town unfamiliar to you while as a tourist at 3am coz only they are open within walking distance from your hotel. You may like the exotic taste or you absolutely hate it. It is a hit and run.

 

[Sims]

Those are fair points - I have many opponents who are higher quality and also non conventional / awkward players and they are more frustrating as you say. I would say that I tend to play up and increase my level vs conventional better players and often come closer to winning.

Vs lower level unconventional players I am still at risk of losing because I don't consistently impose my game with confidence as a result of tightening up and trying to avoid making unforced errors. If they win then I accept they were better but in many cases I should have had the game to beat them.

I used to get that often. Push push push push, I hit my opener, it lands but so does their block. So much effort in finding the initial opener I wasn't prepared for where the block went, mistake, point over. Go again, push push push push, miss opener. 😞
Add their tricky rhythm breaking serves (clever service tactics) and I'm exactly as you described. Then the doubt and lack of confidence kicks in, am I actually better than them or are they just toying with me? Now I can't land enough of my shots to implement any tactics and it's all on their terms. Aaaggghhh 😂
I recount this so well, they're lessons I haven't forgotten. I dwelled on these matches to figure what I can do better and tbh it was only when I stopped viewing them as inferior that I got serious about overcoming them. That's 2 yrs ago now and I've since beaten every one of those opponents in the following seasons.
Occasionally I still come up against older higher level players with this lower energy style, less looping,more spin variations and clever placement and it's always difficult, but they are not inferior at all, they're very good at taking rhythm away from opponents.
I suppose that's what makes Moregard kinda unique in today's game...

My lessons were:
- Make openers V backspin a 9/10 shot rather than the 6or7/10 shot it was previously.
- placement of openers is so important or blocks can be troublesome.
- get better at pushing, take it early off the bounce and practice combinations of FH and BH pushing with different placements, short long.

Back to the OPs post and I'm left thinking that these players are 'skipping leg day' 😉 and just aren't as good as they think and need to improve because it sounds like they only have half a game...
My 2c

 

[Gozo Aruna]

OP also forget to mention these junkies player have an uncanny ability to hit net & edge ball for winners.

 

[Loop Lob Smash]

Playing against conventional players is like going into a pizzaria / chippies diners. You know exactly what is a pizza and what is fish&chips.

Playing against asian uncles / geezers / pippies is like walking into a Thai / Vietnamese / Szechuan restaurant in a town unfamiliar to you while as a tourist at 3am coz only they are open within walking distance from your hotel. You may like the exotic taste or you absolutely hate it. It is a hit and run.

Coming up against uncles, geezers and pippies is more like going to a pizzaria, and ordering a margarita. And when it's brought to your table, you find that it's got fish on it.

 

[Loop Lob Smash]

I used to get that often. Push push push push, I hit my opener, it lands but so does their block. So much effort in finding the initial opener I wasn't prepared for where the block went, mistake, point over. Go again, push push push push, miss opener. 😞
Add their tricky rhythm breaking serves (clever service tactics) and I'm exactly as you described. Then the doubt and lack of confidence kicks in, am I actually better than them or are they just toying with me? Now I can't land enough of my shots to implement any tactics and it's all on their terms. Aaaggghhh 😂
I recount this so well, they're lessons I haven't forgotten. I dwelled on these matches to figure what I can do better and tbh it was only when I stopped viewing them as inferior that I got serious about overcoming them. That's 2 yrs ago now and I've since beaten every one of those opponents in the following seasons.
Occasionally I still come up against older higher level players with this lower energy style, less looping,more spin variations and clever placement and it's always difficult, but they are not inferior at all, they're very good at taking rhythm away from opponents.
I suppose that's what makes Moregard kinda unique in today's game...

My lessons were:
- Make openers V backspin a 9.5/10 shot rather than the 6or7/10 shot it was previously.
- placement of openers is so important or blocks can be troublesome.
- get better at pushing, take it early off the bounce and practice combinations of FH and BH pushing with different placements, short long.

Back to the OPs post and I'm left thinking that these players are 'skipping leg day' 😉 and just aren't as good as they think and need to improve because it sounds like they only have half a game...
My 2c

Hi @Sims agree with most of what you say. But I can see where you went wrong. Instead of recognizing weaknesses in your game and working on them, you should have maintained your cognitive dissonance and redefined the problem as 'their game is more effective but my game is more skillful'

 

[Wrighty67]

I used to get that often. Push push push push, I hit my opener, it lands but so does their block. So much effort in finding the initial opener I wasn't prepared for where the block went, mistake, point over. Go again, push push push push, miss opener. 😞
Add their tricky rhythm breaking serves (clever service tactics) and I'm exactly as you described. Then the doubt and lack of confidence kicks in, am I actually better than them or are they just toying with me? Now I can't land enough of my shots to implement any tactics and it's all on their terms. Aaaggghhh 😂
I recount this so well, they're lessons I haven't forgotten. I dwelled on these matches to figure what I can do better and tbh it was only when I stopped viewing them as inferior that I got serious about overcoming them. That's 2 yrs ago now and I've since beaten every one of those opponents in the following seasons.
Occasionally I still come up against older higher level players with this lower energy style, less looping,more spin variations and clever placement and it's always difficult, but they are not inferior at all, they're very good at taking rhythm away from opponents.
I suppose that's what makes Moregard kinda unique in today's game...

My lessons were:
- Make openers V backspin a 9.5/10 shot rather than the 6or7/10 shot it was previously.
- placement of openers is so important or blocks can be troublesome.
- get better at pushing, take it early off the bounce and practice combinations of FH and BH pushing with different placements, short long.

Back to the OPs post and I'm left thinking that these players are 'skipping leg day' 😉 and just aren't as good as they think and need to improve because it sounds like they only have half a game...
My 2c

Very good advice - thanks.

I have been working hard on a more attacking BH loop drive vs backspin for this reason. I was also considering a lower spin push to give them less to work with and to avoid the ever increasing spin levels making my opener harder the longer I wait!

 

[Brs]

The friends in OP have problems with shot selection and decision making. The junky players do not, they simply put weird balls on the table. Their different levels in this mental skill is the equalizer.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

The problem with arbitrarily assigning a rating to players simply based on how they play against one player (the person playing them and trying to assess their level) is, that is not how ratings work. Ratings are something you earn by playing lots and lots of tournaments against lots of different kinds of players.

If you win a match against one player who is 1800 and lose another match against someone who is 1200 YOU ARE NOT an 1800 level player unless you lost to the 1200 level player on purpose. A good player might play better against some styles than others. But a player with an accurate rating of 1800 or higher is not going to lose to a player who does not know if he is pushing backspin, dead or top. A solid player will be able to read the spin and handle what is coming at him even when the opponent does not know what he put on the ball.

The people who complain about playing long pips players or players who give junk balls with smooth rubbers should probably train as much as possible against long pips players and learn how to play against them. If you complain about weird junk balls, whether from pips or not, it means you need to learn to read and handle them. It is not a big deal. It is part of the game. Avoiding those players will only prolong a weakness against them. You don't have to love playing against them. But it is worth learning how to play against them. Reading up on what to expect could help. But the real way to learn how to play vs what a lot of people call junk ball players is to play against them a lot. I may love (win or lose) playing against LP, but not everyone will. Still, if you do train against them, you will start to understand them and stop being intimidated by them. What LP players do, you can read it. It just requires a different kind of paying attention than you need against an offensive 2 winged loop player.

And someone who can do great topspin to topspin rallies against a high level player, but can't handle someone of a fairly low level playing a pushing game, they have things to work on.

The way you get a rating that actually matches your level is by playing many many many tournaments and playing against all kinds of players in those tournaments. When you have done that, and played hundreds of players at the 1800 level and maintain your 1800 level, then, that is your rating. If you got your rating from 1 or 2 tournaments playing fewer than 20 opponents total, you may have an accurate rating, but....maybe you don't. After you have played a few hundred tournament matches against all kinds of players, your rating will be much more likely to accurately reflect your playing level.

So, talking about rating without actually earning one is a little misguided.

 

[staysmart]

As a beginner, I experienced the same when faced with an experienced pusher. I didn't have the technique to punish him and he was a better pusher than me. He killed me. Second time I met him (friendly game again), instead of frustrating myself that i lose points, I changed the point of view. I said to myself, let's happily attend this pushing masterclass and see what I can learn today.

Seeing competitive players at work, I understood that pushing style is only comfortable when done without punishment. Take the top players. If a push is too long or the ball gets a little high, the following shot is pure punishment. The point is lost. It's like juggling with skittles vs sharp knives. A pusher might juggle with skittles all day, but with sharp knives where every mistake is a finger lost? Maybe the pusher self control would abruptly go down, shot selection be worse when every other push end with a high speed top spin winner from the opponent.

That means for the 1600 and 1800 players to be able to hit properly 8 out of 10 shots, when against poorly form pushes. This means good training and consistency in punishing pushes, which would be expected at +1600 level.