Club level players using Counter-Loop vs block?

[TensorBackhand]

At the club level, circa USATT 2000, should players mostly be using the block or the counter-loop when opponent opens with loop?

When my opponent opens a loop to me, I have experimented with both block and counterloop.

When I use counter-loop, I feel my hit percentage is just 50%. But on those successful hits, the kill-ratio is around 95%.

When I use my block, I feel my hit percentage is 75-80%, so I am much more consistent. But those blocks just result in a neutral rally.

For high level players, using a strong counter-loop should be the way to go. But for club level players where the requirement isn't as high, what should they be doing?

 

[joshmak10]

Personally I try to strong counter loop because it’s an opportunity to win the point for me and I’m a pretty aggressive player with a good forehand counter. But most rally players would either block or do a less strong counter loop to try and build a better opportunity for them to win the point. It’s really down to personal playstyle

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

At the club level, circa USATT 2000, should players mostly be using the block or the counter-loop when opponent opens with loop?

When my opponent opens a loop to me, I have experimented with both block and counterloop.

When I use counter-loop, I feel my hit percentage is just 50%. But on those successful hits, the kill-ratio is around 95%.

When I use my block, I feel my hit percentage is 75-80%, so I am much more consistent. But those blocks just result in a neutral rally.

For high level players, using a strong counter-loop should be the way to go. But for club level players where the requirement isn't as high, what should they be doing?

If your goal is to get to be higher level, you might want to ask a different question: at the 2200 level, what are the offensive players doing? How about at 2300-2400? 2500?

And if you already can block everything back vs people your level and below as though you were a wall, which skill would benefit you more to IMPROVE on? The one you can do at 75-80% vs someone who is a little higher level than you and can pressure you? Or the one that is not as solid?

Also, if you think about it in a certain way, if you spin block, (blocking while making topspin contact) and you add a very small compact stroke to that, if you know what you are doing, you can turn those blocks into very safe counter-loops. As you get more skilled at that, you can start taking bigger and bigger strokes on your counterloops and keep the consistency. And of course, when you block, you are absorbing some of the energy from the incoming ball to send it back with control and less spin. But if you used the incoming spin, you can send the ball back with more pace and more spin with a very small compact stroke. And as you get the touch for that if you start learning to transition from that to fuller counterloops, YOU will start playing even with some of the offensive players who are giving you trouble currently.

So, I personally would say that, for you, working on the fine line between blocks, spin blocks, and compact counterloops would be a good place to start. But, clearly, by those higher levels, people are having marathon loop to loop rallies from mid-distance; therefore, since you are an allround offensive player, you would improve your level by improving your control and skill with counterlooping: at least in my opinion.

 

[TensorBackhand]

If your goal is to get to be higher level, you might want to ask a different question: at the 2200 level, what are the offensive players doing? How about at 2300-2400? 2500?

And if you already can block everything back vs people your level and below as though you were a wall, which skill would benefit you more to IMPROVE on? The one you can do at 75-80% vs someone who is a little higher level than you and can pressure you? Or the one that is not as solid?

Also, if you think about it in a certain way, if you spin block, (blocking while making topspin contact) and you add a very small compact stroke to that, if you know what you are doing, you can turn those blocks into very safe counter-loops. As you get more skilled at that, you can start taking bigger and bigger strokes on your counterloops and keep the consistency. And of course, when you block, you are absorbing some of the energy from the incoming ball to send it back with control and less spin. But if you used the incoming spin, you can send the ball back with more pace and more spin with a very small compact stroke. And as you get the touch for that if you start learning to transition from that to fuller counterloops, YOU will start playing even with some of the offensive players who are giving you trouble currently.

So, I personally would say that, for you, working on the fine line between blocks, spin blocks, and compact counterloops would be a good place to start. But, clearly, by those higher levels, people are having marathon loop to loop rallies from mid-distance; therefore, since you are an allround offensive player, you would improve your level by improving your control and skill with counterlooping: at least in my opinion.

Ok I'll try this.

Although I've never heard the phrase "spin block" before. I think what you mean is just a bit more active block. A block with a bit more forward-upward move or punch?

 

[Brozi]

Ok I'll try this.

Although I've never heard the phrase "spin block" before. I think what you mean is just a bit more active block. A block with a bit more forward-upward move or punch?

I think he means something like a mini counter loop - a cross between a drive and a counter loop, but closer to a drive - early timing, short stroke, but still spinning the ball a bit.

 

[Jan_]

I generally try everything on the first set to get a feel for my opponent, placement, spin, power, everything. If I see that I can handle his spin and power, I counter, if not, I block.

I find that countering isn't done for power and finishing a point outright, I don't end rallies like that. It helps in giving me a good position to either play topspin to topspin, or stay close and force him into blocking. Tactics change with different players.

 

[Attitude]

To simplify this i would just say it depends if you need to counterattack.
If you hit rate is 50% i would mostly drop it and would go for it if there is no other way i would win.

In your mentioned scenario i dont see an issue or the reason to counterattack. A neutral rallye is way better to get into the attack yourself than by counterattacking.

If you cant prevent opponents attack and cant win enough points by blocking you simply have to go counterattack. Simple as that.

In terms of training you need both^^ especially if you want to get better.

 

[TensorBackhand]

To simplify this i would just say it depends if you need to counterattack.
If you hit rate is 50% i would mostly drop it and would go for it if there is no other way i would win.

In your mentioned scenario i dont see an issue or the reason to counterattack. A neutral rallye is way better to get into the attack yourself than by counterattacking.

If you cant prevent opponents attack and cant win enough points by blocking you simply have to go counterattack. Simple as that.

In terms of training you need both^^ especially if you want to get better.

Well yes its 50% today, i want to do some big box ball training and maybe get it to 60%

 

[blahness]

I recommend the mini counterloop (not the Ma Long style full blown FH counterloop kill), but similar to what the women use which is pretty much an abbreviated topspin stroke. It is not a block (which is too passive) nor a counterloop (which is too risky). I am quite good with this stroke and can often turn tables against strong loopers with this stroke.

If you add sidespin to this mini counter, it is extremely disturbing for the looper. You can hook or fade the ball - it will in fact make it even safer. But even if you dont do sidespin stuff, it is good to have your stroke going sideways to dissipate the incoming momentum.

What is extremely important, is that you start with bat high (never drop the bat!) and use your body to control the ball and your body must be in a compact position (like in a hug), and you must focus on footwork to get to the ball first. If you stretch your hand out first then your success rates will go a lot lower.

 

[Dr Evil]

Which would be easier or more fun for you, learning to block more aggressively or learning to counter more consistently?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Ok I'll try this.

Although I've never heard the phrase "spin block" before. I think what you mean is just a bit more active block. A block with a bit more forward-upward move or punch?

Making real spin contact while blocking so it has spin like a loop but your barely moving your racket. I have never heard anyone put a name to it either. But I have seen people use it. And I definitely would rather block like that than flatter if someone is hitting heavy topspin at me.

 

[Der_Echte]

Nearly ALL the professionally trained youth under USATT 2000 level and a LOT of the California adult learner players with no coach are counter hitting vs incoming loop... a few manage to counter loop.

New gen ABS ball changed EVERYTHING and makes it much easier to hit through spin and so many players have gotten that memo and get it.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Heming Hu in a Zoom meeting said 95% of Club / OB player cannot counter-loop. Having said that, if one can successfully play counter-looping, you will very quickly no longer be club level player. If one aspire so, congratulations on your aspiration and may you achieve your desire. It is a good aspiration.

NB: In where I am located, I don't have a rating system to measure a player skill level. However this thought arose in me; the boundary between an club intermediate player and an advance player is the ability of the player to play counter-loop or loop-a-loop.

 

[Der_Echte]

I encourage adult learners to soften hand, allow ball to come to strike zone, use a short arm motion and go through ball. Later, when timing is there, a little more backswing and more body (legs/waist transfer short)

 

[TensorBackhand]

I really enjoy hitting the counterloop. When i succeed, I feel my shot quality is really high.

But as I said, my success % is pretty low right now. If i miss, i generally hit long.

Which would be easier or more fun for you, learning to block more aggressively or learning to counter more consistently?