Does racket angle matter based on whether you face underspin or topspin?

[schrodingerskoalabear]

I was playing TT recently and the match, a higher level player told me that I switch racket angles for underspin and topspin when FH looping. He explained that was an older way of playing (when the ball was smaller) and that more recently, its important to keep my racket angle constant regardless of whether I am playing against topspin or underspin balls. His point, as I understood, was that the important thing was crouching low/weight transfer and accelerating through the ball with a more forward swing

Then I came across this video saying roughly the same thing

Am I understanding the advice from the player + this Ryu Seung Min video correctly? To focus more on the form + weight transfer + acceleration through the contact rather than adjusting racket angles for different spins?

 

[olive-nguyen]

May not be totally accurate but I believe what Ryu meant is that racket angle alone need not justify totally on how shallow or long the ball hits on the opponents side of the table. In the video he mentioned that one can contact the ball very thinly, meaning very closed racket angle, and still overshoot the table, contrary to what most expect that too thin of a contact wouldn't allow the ball to pass the net. The opposite is true, mentioning that a thick impact, racket very open, will not pass the net, when it's usually thought that too thick of an impact would make the ball overshoot from the table. Racket angle matters in conjunction with the angle your bat travels through in the forehand stroke, hence the importance too on form and weight transfer. It also comes down to how early you take the ball, comparison for example Felix Lebrun vs Xu Xin, where Felix takes the ball pretty early off the bounce and Xu Xin takes it from later on from it's bounce. Similar here for Xu Xin as Timo Boll as mentioned by Ryu, talking about pulling the loop from low down, conjunction with posture.

 

[olive-nguyen]

Summoning @Tony's Table Tennis and @SFF_lib and others.

 

[zeio]

Various biomechanical studies show that it does. More open for backspin and more close for topspin.

 

[rbtitco]

Returning fh's with a closed angle from a strong chopper will tell you all you need to know

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Summoning @Tony's Table Tennis and @SFF_lib and others.

different racket angle when contacting the ball still applies today.

it all depends on the incoming ball.
loop drive against such a weak incoming spin is obviously little threat in 40+ vs 38mm days, is what Ryu is saying when talking about the ball size.
but minor adjustment is still required when facing heavy underspin balls, like choppers.

The more forward swing is indeed more modern, compared to 2 decades ago where it is more upwards.
so what Ryu saying is correct.
but you still need to have angle adjustments, all based on spin, incoming arc, power of the ball.

 

[olive-nguyen]

About that

different racket angle when contacting the ball still applies today.

it all depends on the incoming ball.
loop drive against such a weak incoming spin is obviously little threat in 40+ vs 38mm days, is what Ryu is saying when talking about the ball size.
but minor adjustment is still required when facing heavy underspin balls, like choppers.

The more forward swing is indeed more modern, compared to 2 decades ago where it is more upwards.
so what Ryu saying is correct.
but you still need to have angle adjustments, all based on spin, incoming arc, power of the ball.

About that, I suggest you look at the videos of Ryu vs Joo Sae Hyuk. You can see how he has to change his style to get over Joo who is all to used to Ryu's playstyle. You can see he keeps his stance lower than usual and bat angle is wider, more open. He also seems to pull the ball further upwards. Note this is in 38mm era

 

[Airoc]

it all depends on the incoming ball.

Another "modern" adjustment was mentioned by Ovtcharov in a video, where he said that with tenergy he had too be more careful how he hit the ball and with d09c he could more easily just "go through it". So playing style influences rubber development which then influences playing style ;-)

 

[NetProphet]

I was playing TT recently and the match, a higher level player told me that I switch racket angles for underspin and topspin when FH looping. He explained that was an older way of playing (when the ball was smaller) and that more recently, its important to keep my racket angle constant regardless of whether I am playing against topspin or underspin balls. His point, as I understood, was that the important thing was crouching low/weight transfer and accelerating through the ball with a more forward swing

Then I came across this video saying roughly the same thing

Am I understanding the advice from the player + this Ryu Seung Min video correctly? To focus more on the form + weight transfer + acceleration through the contact rather than adjusting racket angles for different spins?

The most basic way it was put to me and has (so far) worked for me is:

- if you are swinging up (V backspin balls) open the racket a bit more and aim contact between 2-3 o clock.
3 o clock V more backspin.
2 o clock V less backspin.

- if you are swinging forward (V topspin balls) close the racket a bit more and aim contact between 1-2 o clock.
Closer to 1 o clock V more topspin.
Closer to 2 o clock V less topspin.

Roughly speaking of course but it's hard to hit 3 o clock with a closed racket so angle does come into play.

 

[ttarc]

A Comparative Biomechanical Analysis of Topspin Forehand against Topspin and Backspin in Table Tennis

A Comparative Biomechanical Analysis of Topspin Forehand against Topspin and Backspin in Table Tennis

The topspin forehand is the most frequent and effective shot in top-level table tennis matches. The present study assesses the biomechanical differences in the topspin forehand stroke technique when the incoming ball is in different rotations. Eight national level-1 male table tennis athletes...

www.mdpi.com

"Eight national level-1 male table tennis athletes (176.6 ± 4.8 cm, 70.8 ± 6.6 kg, 20.9 ± 2.4 yr) performed two kinds of techniques—topspin forehand strokes against topspin (AT) and against backspin (AB) balls, respectively...
Compared with AT strokes, the athletes kept a straight elbow and lower center of gravity than they did during the stroke phase of AB strokes. They increased the distance of the racket trajectory and velocity to meet the incoming ball with a backspin, especially in the vertical direction. This detailed information is necessary for beginners to improve the efficiency of their forehand topspin technique, especially in strokes against incoming balls with different rotations." and they found quite differing racket angles against topspin and backspin besides a lot of other results.

This video compares Fan Zhendong and Zhang Jike doing FH and BH loops against topspin and backspin. Fan Zhendong uses mostly the same racket angle but not the same motion.

For me it depends mostly on how actively/powerful a stroke can be executed. E.g. a passive block needs more adjustments depending on incoming speed and spin than an active block and the same holds for loops against topspin or backspin.

 

[schrodingerskoalabear]

The most basic way it was put to me and has (so far) worked for me is:

- if you are swinging up (V backspin balls) open the racket a bit more and aim contact between 2-3 o clock.
3 o clock V more backspin.
2 o clock V less backspin.

- if you are swinging forward (V topspin balls) close the racket a bit more and aim contact between 1-2 o clock.
Closer to 1 o clock V more topspin.
Closer to 2 o clock V less topspin.

Roughly speaking of course but it's hard to hit 3 o clock with a closed racket so angle does come into play.

This has been my general intuition as well; keeping the racket relatively open vs varying degrees of backspin + relatively closed racket vs varying degrees of topspin.

Can you explain clock analogy on contact? Is the 2 o'clock for example, in the upper right quadrant of the ball if we are seeing it from the back?

 

[blahness]

What matters is the location on the ball of which you hit/brush the ball. If you hit the ball from below you are gonna contact it more with a more open racket angle automatically because of the stroke trajectory forces you to hit the lower half of the ball. Same goes if you come from above, it is automatically more closed.

It is kinda a geometrical concept.

 

[NetProphet]

This has been my general intuition as well; keeping the racket relatively open vs varying degrees of backspin + relatively closed racket vs varying degrees of topspin.

Can you explain clock analogy on contact? Is the 2 o'clock for example, in the upper right quadrant of the ball if we are seeing it from the back?

Hi
The clock analogy is as if you were viewing the ball from the side, so 3 o clock is the front of the ball as you see it coming towards you. So 2 o clock is 30 degrees up, like if you're hitting a snooker que ball with topspin.
I hope this helps.
There is more advanced spin theory for hitting top right, top left of the ball to go with or against spin but that's another thing.
In fact @blahness above has described this a few times before, perhaps he can link one of the threads?
Cheers