Don't blame the rubber if you don't get enough spin.

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Whatever physics I learned in my life I have mostly forgotten so I can not take sides here.
I know though that it is in some OPs interest to keep a thread going for as long as possible
and disputing every solid argument helps here.

I notice though that like many many threads this one also takes on a life of its own . If we would have stuck to the title of the thread ""Don't blame the rubber if you don't get enough spin. It's your fault.""" AND if we would leave out all the (for me) math and physics BS, I hate to say it
but BB is right. Regardless of what rubber we have , we are responsible to make the spin.
If we feel we can not make enough spin we can try every rubber on the market but in
the end we still have to create the spin.

Sorry ! 😂
I agree with the conclusion (the title of the thread). We've all seen people play TT and achieve some spin with clipboards and other random objects.

What I don't understand how brokenball's formula actually gets us to the conclusion. He seems to be arguing that any object made of any material (let's say, that stainless steel blade covered in oil) will achieve an exact amount of spin based on contact point and racket speed alone. This seems like a bizarre hill to die on, and I just find it odd that he would rather spend his time calling people stupid for not understanding it, but won't answer simple questions that are intended to give him a chance to explain more in depth.

This is a topic that's actually pretty interesting to me, so I was hoping for a good discussion with a self-proclaimed high level physicist and engineer to learn something new. Instead, I feel like I got a lesson in antisocial psychopathy.
 
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I have been camping and have been trying to catch up.
I am confused as to why so many of you are confused.
Do any of you know how a cars speedometer works?
It is kind of the opposite of what we are talking about but the same principles apply.
Assume the road is the rubber/paddle. Assume the ball is the tire.
The car knows how fast the tire is spinning. Let's say the tire is spinning at 10 rev/sec. Now assume the tire has a circumference of 2 m. The car is moving at 20 m/s or 72 kph or 44.7 mpg

So let's reverse this a bit. Assume you are in an air plane landing at 144 kph or 40 m/s. When the wheels hit the runway, how fast are the wheel going to rotate?
Assume the circumference of the air plane's wheel has a circumference of 1 m.
Notice the ratio of m/s to kph is 3.6.

Now can you relate this to a TT ball hitting a paddle?

I have no time for those that say the model is wrong without saying why it is wrong. If one can't say why it is wrong then they clearly don't understand the problem and are just trying to be negative without justification.

I don't have time for people like Nextlevel that thinks this is about how well one plays TT. What is shows is that Nextlevel's engineering knowledge is pitiful.
WTF has Nextlevel done?
 
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LOL I loved how you launched an unprvoked attack on NextLevel to force him to post some sweet nothings

Lot of things about NextLevel is suspicious. He says he was born in Nigeria but I think he was born in Hawaii.
I need to see his birth certificate & engineering degree certificate for him to prove anything.
It wasn't unprovoked. Read the forum. Do I need to find the links? Nextlevel had made many ad hominen attacks on me because he can't argue a point as engineers. Nextlevel posts garbage that he doesn't understand.

Nextlevel has claimed he could beat me with a 7 ball handicap. That is pure BS. My third coach had a rating of 2500 which is much higher than Nextlevel's. Yet my 3rd couch could never beat me with a 6 ball handicap.
Nextlevel is full of BS My third coach was Guo Hao. He beat Wang Jinxing in the Seattle open in 2015. Wang Jinxing had just won the US open so my third coach was pretty good. So a few years ago that would place me at about 2000 which is about what Nextlevel claims. I have seen nothing from Nextlevel or any body else on a TT forum. Everyone that claims to be an engineer runs and hides. It has been that way since 2009 when I first joined mytt. There were a few that claimed to have PhDs but they hid.
 
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NDH

says Spin to win!
I don't have time for people like Nextlevel that thinks this is about how well one plays TT. What is shows is that Nextlevel's engineering knowledge is pitiful.
WTF has Nextlevel done?
But playing ability matters to add context to the situation.

I don’t think many people are disagreeing that technique is more important than equipment, and if that’s all you are advocating, then great.

It’s a slightly odd topic to start, as it feels a little more “common sense” than some sort of “unpopular opinion” type piece.

I’ve never seen people state they feel the equipment they use is MORE important than their actual technique/ability.

But to say that equipment doesn’t matter, or add anything to the playing level is just laughable, and shows your relative ability.

The difference that equipment makes is much smaller than people would like to think (and by “people”, I mean those of us who discuss the tiny details on forums like this because we have an interest in it).

And again, I’m talking about the differences between SIMILAR rubbers/blades etc - Clearly a very big difference between short pips and Dignics 09.

However, all of that being said, just because your headline point is correct, your “calculations” and method supporting your argument will forever be a theory, as you don’t have anywhere close to a good enough technique to support what you are saying (and I don’t mean that to be rude, but if you are going to be so strong with your opinions, you need to be able to see the other side of the argument as well).

It would be like if I demonstrated a model to fly me to Jupiter….. Whilst the math and theory could be correct, my NASA credentials are….. lacking.

Lastly, it’s worth remembering this is a table tennis forum, and I have no idea why you seem to think your engineering talk is going to yield constructive conversation?

Perhaps an engineering forum would be better for you, where your level of table tennis (relative to the forum) would be a help, rather than a hindrance to your method.
 
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It wasn't unprovoked. Read the forum. Do I need to find the links? Nextlevel had made many ad hominen attacks on me because he can't argue a point as engineers. Nextlevel posts garbage that he doesn't understand.

Nextlevel has claimed he could beat me with a 7 ball handicap. That is pure BS. My third coach had a rating of 2500 which is much higher than Nextlevel's. Yet my 3rd couch could never beat me with a 6 ball handicap.
Nextlevel is full of BS My third coach was Guo Hao. He beat Wang Jinxing in the Seattle open in 2015. Wang Jinxing had just won the US open so my third coach was pretty good. So a few years ago that would place me at about 2000 which is about what Nextlevel claims. I have seen nothing from Nextlevel or any body else on a TT forum. Everyone that claims to be an engineer runs and hides. It has been that way since 2009 when I first joined mytt. There were a few that claimed to have PhDs but they hid.
NL has added more value to others on this forum than most (certainly to me) - and it has been as a result of his experience, ability and willingness to offer constructive advice and observations.
 
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NL has added more value to others on this forum than most (certainly to me) - and it has been as a result of his experience, ability and willingness to offer constructive advice and observations.
NL style is more like an adult post-grad course facilitator.

BB is like those professor in some very old university who lectures to a bunch of undergrads.
 

NDH

says Spin to win!
This is somewhat incorrect.
You (or your coach) need to select equipment that matches your age, playing style etc first such as all children should start with two side spinny inverted (definitely not hardbat or sandpaper) & much older people must start with short pips on forehand & high aspect ratio super long pips on backhand. This of course may chanhe or evolve or devolve over time.

Technique of course is very important but technique is mostly a joke, especially for an amateur, if you are using equipment that does not closely match your playing style , which is usuully very different for most humans on backhand (weakside) & forehand (strong side).
There is no point in an much older person trying to be a forehand power looper if they cannot loop at all.

Then there are those who make crazy claims that players should use spinny inverted or short pips on backhand for chopping in the 40+ plastic ball era after being brainwashed by the ITTF disinformation campaign,

The worst example is all the long pips players using the low aspect ratio low length long pips on the LARC that are totally useless in the 40+ plastic ball era (just because the corrupt ITTF says so), instead of using the proper rubbers, which are the high aspect ratio super long pips,

BrokenBall has been sort of making crazy claims that players can use just about any rubber / blade as long their technique is correct (and play at the same level)
Hi James, do you have video of you playing to add some more context to your thoughts?

I love a good strong opinion, and I absolutely respect people that stand behind their opinions in the face of numerous caveats and grey areas (of which there are many in Table Tennis!)

I agree with some of what you’ve said, but as always, there are plenty of exceptions to the rule, and there is no “one size fits all” approach here.

You say “technique is mostly a joke for an amateur”, but who qualifies as an amateur?

Anyone who isn’t professional? Because I would strongly disagree there, as there are many levels to what an amateur may be.

If people of a similar ability were to play each other, with one person using equipment that is suited to their style, and the other using equipment NOT suited to their style, then yea, equipment becomes a big factor.

But a good player can still get much more spin and speed from a defensive set up, than an average player can get from an attacking set up.

And that, is down to technique.
 
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This is somewhat incorrect.
You (or your coach) need to select equipment that matches your age, playing style etc first such as all children should start with two side spinny inverted (definitely not hardbat or sandpaper) & much older people must start with short pips on forehand & high aspect ratio super long pips on backhand. This of course may chanhe or evolve or devolve over time.
Horse shit, In my country in a club everyone starts with basically the same equipment. Something along the line of a Donic Appelgren all play with Rakza7.
 
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Horse shit, In my country in a club everyone starts with basically the same equipment. Something along the line of a Donic Appelgren all play with Rakza7.
In my experience they all start with extra original and then upgrade to rakza 7 soft and then rakza 7. And in the blade category they start with Yasaka 2040 and then advance to sweden classic or sweden extra depending on the playing style and then they usually go to ma lin extra offensive.
 
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You asked good question so I will answer.

I don't understand this at all and I'm trying to follow along with the conversation. I do have a few questions:

Does the formula you describe apply for any material the ball impacts with?
I can say any. I am sure there are exceptions.

If the answer is yes, then does the rubber only provide spring effect from elasticity? How would that be represented?
I said assume there is no spring effect. No elasticity. Can't anybody read? If elasticity is considered then there would be more spin. There are formulas for calculating the speed after impact that includes uses the mass of the ball and paddle and the coefficient of restitution. Basically it combines the conservation of momentum with the formula for the coefficient of restitution. The same can be done for spin where the conservation of angular momentum and tangential coefficient of restitution are used.

Does the formula account for any changes in ball trajectory or course from the ball sinking into the topsheet/sponge material?
Yes, but the example I provided with the perfect brush is a best case and simple case this stupid forum can understand. Again, it is similar to how a cars speedometer works.

I've seen slow motion videos of the ball impacting tacky rubber, and visibly climbing up the rubber before bouncing off the surface. Is this phenomenon accounted for in the formula, or is there a separate formula involved there?
Yes! Palguay's recent video show that too but that is not an example of trying to get maximum spin. Pathfinderpro has some good videos on YouTube you should watch.
Basically the balls rotational energy, spin, is being converted to translational energy, speed. Yes there is a different formula for that case.

I just find this sort of thing very fascinating, and your confidence is giving me the impression like you can answer these questions I've always wondered about. Thank you in advance!
Yes, I can answer these questions. A least the good ones that are more specific.

Go see Pathfinderpro's video on YouTube. They were made about 10+ ago. I takes a lot of time and effort to make these video and there is little reward. He has more than just those I listed.
 
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It appears that he is not even a good engineer given he thinks that people launch rockets and airplanes without extensive model testing and verification 😂
We are not talking about launching rockets and airplanes. You guys can't get beyond how a tangential motion affect the rotation of a ball. It isn't that much different from a simple speedometer except in this case the tire pushes on the road instead of the road pushing on the tire.
 
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This statement precisely betrays your lack of knowledge of actual real world engineering. If you follow SpaceX for eg, every single component of a rocket is meticulously tested to verify their modelling and calculations. And if there's any anomalous behaviour they will postpone launches until the issue is actually fixed and rectified. It is even more stringent with airplanes. Otherwise why bother with wind tunnels and rocket test fires?

Even in finite element models, all the material models are meticulously tested against real world experimental data, before it can be safely used. There's tons of testing/verification of models throughout the years, which is what gives engineers confidence in using them.

Your model of the racket - ball interaction falls apart under the simplest poking which you can't provide an explanation to, instead resorting to personal insults.

1) your model suggests that you can generate 80 rev/s off a dead rubber which I can safely say it is completely false and a huge overestimate due to comparisons with historical Hawkeye measurements of pro players.

2) in your model, the surface of the racket doesn't matter, but real life behaviour shows that the rubber matters a huge deal.

You don't even understand the papers that zeio posted - not even the paper with the simplified Pickleball physics which already has a much more complex model than yours. In zeio's paper the experimenters were able to show that their model can predict resulting pickleball behaviour down with little errors. Can yours predict ball behaviour to such precision?
What is wrong with you? We are just trying to do a simple calculation. BTW, I have done more testing than you can imagine.

1) your model suggests that you can generate 80 rev/s off a dead rubber which I can safely say it is completely false and a huge overestimate due to comparisons with historical Hawkeye measurements of pro players.
Where is your evidence? Are you saying that if you simply put a TT ball on a dead rubber it won't roll if tilted?
What an ............. you are!
 

NDH

says Spin to win!
You completely missed my point about choosing the right equipment FIRST. Technique only comes after that.
Focuing on technique but using wrong equipment , at any level, is a joke but it is more of a joke for a lower level player.

You should also compare players of more or less equal skill levels & not of different levels, as you seem to be doing.

As far as my video , I am still looking for some young sexy models to add to my rap music porn video of me playing table tennis. So please be patient for the release date.
OK, so (and please correct me if I'm wrong), you are saying that choosing the right equipment initially, is the most important thing (or a very important thing, if not *the most* important)?

Isn't that comment just super..... obvious? It's like telling someone they will only improve if they hold the right end of the bat.

But it would still only work if you follow your very strict advise on who should play with what.....

Over 40's? Get in the PIMPLES line! 😂

If you were a coach/TT recruitment extraordinaire, you could follow your methodology, put people into little boxes and I'm sure you'd have success in generalizing the players.

But I know plenty of young, athletic, VERY good players who play with pimples, and lots of old, less athletic players who are capable of looping on both wings (some of whom didn't start playing until they were an adult).

And as for the "same level" comment, again..... Surely that's just obvious? Who is saying that equipment doesn't matter if 2 players of equal ability face off against each other?

Lastly, your video.

If you truly wanted to make a positive contribution to this forum (and this applies to you more than others, as your borderline trolling can either be taken as pure passion, or out and out trolling), then you'd record 30 seconds and upload it.

It doesn't really matter if you are good or bad.

If you are good, your points will carry the weight of someone who can back up what they are saying at a personal level.

If you are bad, you can still make those points, but you'll be doing so knowing the forum knows your playing level.

And I suspect you'll be far less opinionated if that were to to be known.
 
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