Expensive table tennis blades.. why not?

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Most of us want the most bang for our buck—of course, we all do. So, we try to find a blade or rubber for the least amount of money that plays like Viscaria ALC, Super ALC, ZLC, Golden Viscaria, DHS W968, and so on.

We want a rubber that feels like a Dignics or a DHS National, but we want to pay 30 and not 100.

Of course, beginners think that 'better' blades make them play better, but how the heck do they know what 'better' is?

Then some of us end up ej-ing. It isn't only the hunt for the best blade for the least amount of money, but it also takes a lot of time getting used to new rubbers, a new blade, and stalling progress. In the end, maybe it costs a lot of money too.

I'm like that. My buddy isn't. Quite the opposite. He started playing with a Joola premade, and he made quite some progress. His rubbers are now a little torn on the edges. Another club member (more experienced) said, "You play as well as me now, maybe it's time to buy another blade." So, he borrowed some blades, went to a shop where he could try out some blades and rubbers, and bought himself a €250 BTY blade and rubbers, and he loves it.

I am thinking of switching. Think about how much time you spend training and competing in table tennis and then trying to have a cheap setup that plays like a H5 with provincial or national rubbers and then some.

Curious what you think and your arguments.
 
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says Pimples Schmimples
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I can relate to all of that very easily!

Personally I try to understand (loosely) where the cut off is for myself before extreme diminishing returns in price V performance.

And then to remember that professional grade equipment in this game especially, has little business being wielded by clunky amateurs like myself because it is just too fast and doesn't give the control needed.

Just a look then at every blade for under €50 for example, and there are so many good blades that there's no way I need to spend more than that to get a blade that will do everything I need.

Same goes for rubbers under €40, there's absolutely nothing extra I can get from an €80 rubber that a €30-€40 rubber cannot do for me.
When you get to an advanced level I can see the lure of Viscaria and other such jewels. If so many players (pro and amateur) find it that good then it's gonna be worth a go. And one day it hopefully will for me.
Until then it's fun messing with a few good but cheap blades, I have 3 I like and together they cost less than €100 so it's ok to take a gamble at that price and ok to make a mistake too.

The biggest mistake I made was buying the Nittaku Acoustic in regular handle. That was my grail blade and it does give the feel and feedback it's famous for but after a few months the small handle was uncomfortable and I couldn't fully adjust to it. The bigger G Revision version came out a few mths after I bought mine 😥
 
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From my experience, if you can play decent enough loops, top-spins, blocks both on BH and FH, you'd be better of with slightly faster blades than all wood. But the trick here is that if you switch to a faster blade, you need some time to get used to it, meaning you need to adjust your technique slightly to cope up with that extra speed. If you feel that you are able to adjust to your new speedier blade, you can be sure that the blade suits your playing style. This atleast is my experience.
 
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IMO there is almost no difference between all those blades. All 6mm composite that play roughly the same. I think it's all psychological. I've tried many of them and they are always disappointing, all roughly the same feel, speed range, sweet spot (poor) etc. It's likely that the best players in the club can use a $10 blade to beat you.

Some of our juniors, who use pre-made bats and train 1 day per week for 6-12 months, have taken sets off other juniors who use $600 setups and have been training 4+ days per week for 3+ years.

That being said the psychology is an important part of the game. So if manufacturers and their sponsorship players have convinced you of the quality and importance of their equipment, it may be beneficial to you to just purchase it and use it, as you may feel more confident and it may remove any negative thoughts about your equipment during play. I suspect that more money has been spent looking for alternatives to expensive equipment than the expensive equipment itself.
 
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The more people that spend time on the internet reading about equipment become intrigued and end up chasing a unicorn. The players that just buy a bat and play don’t usually know too much or care about equipment and replace when needed. Just my observation.

Like everything else this game is preference based on feel unless you have a coach or someone knowledgeable to tell you what to use.
 
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The biggest reason why I don't buy expensive blades is that I've researched the issue for a while and still can't determine why an expensive blade would play any better than a cheaper clone of it.

In the end, a blade is generally 5 to 9 pieces of plywood glued together with maybe 2 of those layers made of a thin synthetic materials. Higher end blades and clones use the same industrial processes to make blades, and there is no special technology required in gluing together pieces of plywood, which is something that's been done for hundreds of years. Maybe some company like Nittaku will use bone glue for some of its blades but whether it makes a difference or whether it's actually even true is still debated.

So as far as how a ball interacts with a wood sandwich is a matter of physics and not something Butterfly or DHS can really change.

What about wood selection? That's an issue as poor quality wood can splinter or be not as consistent. But the fact that Viscarias can vary by 150 hz in hardness frequency, and Nittaku blades can vary by up to 15g in weight, means that at least commercial versions of even popular expensive blades aren't subject to rigorous wood selection control. Maybe some companies are better than others at this. I have personally weighed about 10 Yasaka Resonate AI blades at a store and they all were 88 grams, which is roughly around the factory listed weight.

Pros play with Butterfly and DHS blades because they get paid to. And even then they are given a non-commercial version or are given multiple blades where only a few are suitable. The often heard story goes something like 'famous pro player was given over a dozen blades to choose from and only liked 2 and send the rest back.' So even the blades that these companies give to their star players get rejected because the feel of the wood of each individual blade is an important factor and not something that simply being expensive cannot control for.

In this sense, pros are all EJs but they just get to do it for free. And in order for you to ensure your expensive pro blade is right for you, you'd need to have as good of a feel for equipment as them and then buy multiple blades of each model to test.

So, to conclude:

1. Blades with the same composition will play similarly because physics doesn't change when you slap on a different nameplate on the handle.
2. Finding a blade with the composition that suits play style and a comfortable handle should theoretically have way more value to hobby players than concerns which make blades like Butterfly more expensive (i.e, finish, design, marketing, and sponsorship).
3. If you do get to an advanced enough level where EJ'ing is worth the trouble, then buying a $250 blade of the composition you like playing with won't ensure you get one that's right for you. It might be a dud or the variation might not suit you. It's likely better to buy 8 $40 clone blades of the same or similar composition and pick the best ones from that lot. Of course, you may get lucky on the first one you buy that's perfectly suited for you (whether it's a Stuor Harimoto clone or a Butterfly Golden Viscaria) and come away thinking that specific model is an amazing blade that everyone should be playing with.

If you want to make the process even cheaper, then you can ask to play with everyone's blade at the club in order to find out what sort of handle shape/size and composition feels best.
 
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says former JPEN, now CPEN
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cant rly comment much bc i am too frugal to spend on equipment to be a true EJ

but i would say that the only reason i would be willing to spend that much money on an expensive blade would be that they usually have really good design

stiga dynasty carbon xu xin for example is delicious eye candy, better than the people that modelled for victoria's secret

i wouldve buy cheaper blades a lot more if only their design is more appealing

another reason would be assurance of quality (except for stiga), especially if notable players are using a blade you've been fancying for a while.



(semi-related hot take, most DHS blades on the market right now are kinda fugly to look at, i dont want chuqin's face on the bottom of the handle)

What about wood selection? That's an issue as poor quality wood can splinter or be not as consistent.
case in point stiga

their blades play fine, sure, but at the usual price range i expect the worksmanship to be top notch and yet here we are with tons of complaints about the outerply being easy to splinter
 
says Table tennis clown
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their blades play fine, sure, but at the usual price range i expect the worksmanship to be top notch and yet here we are with tons of complaints about the outerply being easy to splinter
Sure sure and it also happened to some "unreasonably priced" Butterfly blades. I can still remember the photos shown here in the forum of blades that had big bits of the outerply missing and the lovely blue/black ALC showing. I have bought once an innerforce ALC BTY but sold it again because it simply could not do anything that a much cheaper blade could not also do.
 
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There is absolute nothing that guarantees an expensive blade to play better than an unexpensive one. But on average 10 expensive blades of the same model are most likely more similar than the less expensive ones. You will find more duds among the less expensive ones. With a higher price you buy yourself a greater chance of getting a good one. And yes there is a difference…
The wood itself and how it’s assembled will make a difference. I personally like slower equipment that makes you hit harder. And I also want just as much vibration so I can feel when I hit the sweet spot. But I don’t like trampolines or bricks…

Cheers
L-zr
 
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Hi,

I want to add a point for you to add a perspective. Not the equipment but the way the pros use them... Please take a closer look to their rubber cutting quality. Maybe % 90 of them do not mind that if they cut good or not except Chineese players. They have technic and they do practicce too often. They hit almost every quality needed shot with their blade's sweet spot. In my opinion equipment is like jewelery. If you have fundamentals, equipment suits better to you and you play good with it.
 
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Most of us want the most bang for our buck—of course, we all do. So, we try to find a blade or rubber for the least amount of money that plays like Viscaria ALC, Super ALC, ZLC, Golden Viscaria, DHS W968, and so on.

We want a rubber that feels like a Dignics or a DHS National, but we want to pay 30 and not 100.

Of course, beginners think that 'better' blades make them play better, but how the heck do they know what 'better' is?

Then some of us end up ej-ing. It isn't only the hunt for the best blade for the least amount of money, but it also takes a lot of time getting used to new rubbers, a new blade, and stalling progress. In the end, maybe it costs a lot of money too.

I'm like that. My buddy isn't. Quite the opposite. He started playing with a Joola premade, and he made quite some progress. His rubbers are now a little torn on the edges. Another club member (more experienced) said, "You play as well as me now, maybe it's time to buy another blade." So, he borrowed some blades, went to a shop where he could try out some blades and rubbers, and bought himself a €250 BTY blade and rubbers, and he loves it.

I am thinking of switching. Think about how much time you spend training and competing in table tennis and then trying to have a cheap setup that plays like a H5 with provincial or national rubbers and then some.

Curious what you think and your arguments.
I think both sides have a good points. You can have a good setup for like 100 bucks (blade +2 rubbers) and going expensive won't make you a much better player but even if you spend 200 bucks for a blade that you use 5 years (40 bucks per year) and 200 bucks on rubbers per year that is still rather cheap compared to other hobbies where people spend thousands of dollars each year.

So if you like to play butterfly and you can afford it why not?

The real expensive thing of course is EJing.

If you EJ through a lower price setup every month that is more expensive than sticking with one expensive setup.
 
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Every player whatever his or her level is should understand that faster/spinnier equipment just magnifies your skills/characteristics

Give a mediocre paddle to a solid A player and the best paddle to a skilled but less consistent B player...player A will still win 10/10 games
 
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Some people find joy with honing their skills in table tennis. Crafting their art, and becoming better each day.

Some find joy in the process of choosing equipment to play table tennis. Hinoki, Ayous, Tamca, ZLC, ALC, and rubber combos intrigued them.

Both can enjoy table tennis their own way.
 
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There is a cost to getting used to your equipment too.

People who try the latest clone or new $30 sanwei rubber every month don't really count that. If you can buy one blade that you love and don't change after a few years of play you will have a great feeling for what that blade will do. If it cost $250, WTF cares, if you have the money?

Same if you use T05 or dignics or whatever top ESN is now. If you change to a different rubber 2-3x a year, you never adapt fully to any of them.

So will a $250 blade make you a better player than a $50 clone, No, of course not. But using one blade for five years will make you better than using five $50 blades one year each. And you still spent the same $250 at the end.
 
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The best reason to buy an expensive blade is to cure yourself of EJititis. After all, if you don't play better with a W968 or a golden fishscale viscaria, then you've got to admit (obvs, assuming one is intellectually honest with themselves :) ) it's not the equipment that makes a player ...
 
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To my mind, the best blade for somebody is the one that:

- they can afford to buy, use and replace if necessary,
- which is made to the highest possible standards, and of the best available materials at its price point,
- that feels the most comfortable for that person to use, and
- that provides them the *most* control it possibly can, in all the most important aspects of its owner's current game.

Satisfying the above need not be expensive at all. Only ever spend as much as you want to on a blade, because there's great blades and crappy blades available at every price point.

Getting the best quality blade you can at your chosen price point is always advisable, as low quality equipment can definitely impair your game. This is enormously true of rubbers, and blades are no different.

What's more important is choosing equipment that actually suits your current strengths, and matches your current game style and skill level.

I emphasise the word current , because in my experience everybody's game is in a constant state of flux (to varying degrees) over their entire life. Changes in our overall skills and abilities is the only real constant in our game as we age

Our strength, fitness, abilities, skill levels etc all change substantially over our lives, due to a combination of age, practice, learning, experience, genetics and lifestyle choices. Add in periods of inactivity, injury and/or recovery to that mix, and the changes become more dramatic, and more erratic.

As our skills and playing strengths are a constantly moving feast so too our needs of our equipment can (and will) often change as well. It's never mandatory to change our equipment of course... it's merely only an option, and frequently advisable.

I think the biggest mistake many EJs make, is looking to new equipment TOO EARLY, in order to lift their game from its current level. They can tend to focus on new equipment first, and more practice second.
Really, it has to be the other way around -- you need to focus on improving your skills first, right up to the point that your current equipment is actively limiting your game.... that's the right time to change>

I say this, because I find this is the only time / circumstances when changing equipment actually makes a positive difference for you.
If you change equipment, and your control and playing options don't massively improve very quickly, then either:

(A): it's the wrong type of equipment for you (in which case your game will suffer hugely), or else
(B): it's not the right time to make the change -- in which case your game won't change much at all, as you don't yet have all the necessary discernment in your touch and playing technique to unlock its higher performance potential.
 
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The biggest reason why I don't buy expensive blades is that I've researched the issue for a while and still can't determine why an expensive blade would play any better than a cheaper clone of it.

In the end, a blade is generally 5 to 9 pieces of plywood glued together with maybe 2 of those layers made of a thin synthetic materials. Higher end blades and clones use the same industrial processes to make blades, and there is no special technology required in gluing together pieces of plywood, which is something that's been done for hundreds of years. Maybe some company like Nittaku will use bone glue for some of its blades but whether it makes a difference or whether it's actually even true is still debated.

So as far as how a ball interacts with a wood sandwich is a matter of physics and not something Butterfly or DHS can really change.

What about wood selection? That's an issue as poor quality wood can splinter or be not as consistent. But the fact that Viscarias can vary by 150 hz in hardness frequency, and Nittaku blades can vary by up to 15g in weight, means that at least commercial versions of even popular expensive blades aren't subject to rigorous wood selection control. Maybe some companies are better than others at this. I have personally weighed about 10 Yasaka Resonate AI blades at a store and they all were 88 grams, which is roughly around the factory listed weight.

Pros play with Butterfly and DHS blades because they get paid to. And even then they are given a non-commercial version or are given multiple blades where only a few are suitable. The often heard story goes something like 'famous pro player was given over a dozen blades to choose from and only liked 2 and send the rest back.' So even the blades that these companies give to their star players get rejected because the feel of the wood of each individual blade is an important factor and not something that simply being expensive cannot control for.

In this sense, pros are all EJs but they just get to do it for free. And in order for you to ensure your expensive pro blade is right for you, you'd need to have as good of a feel for equipment as them and then buy multiple blades of each model to test.

So, to conclude:

1. Blades with the same composition will play similarly because physics doesn't change when you slap on a different nameplate on the handle.
2. Finding a blade with the composition that suits play style and a comfortable handle should theoretically have way more value to hobby players than concerns which make blades like Butterfly more expensive (i.e, finish, design, marketing, and sponsorship).
3. If you do get to an advanced enough level where EJ'ing is worth the trouble, then buying a $250 blade of the composition you like playing with won't ensure you get one that's right for you. It might be a dud or the variation might not suit you. It's likely better to buy 8 $40 clone blades of the same or similar composition and pick the best ones from that lot. Of course, you may get lucky on the first one you buy that's perfectly suited for you (whether it's a Stuor Harimoto clone or a Butterfly Golden Viscaria) and come away thinking that specific model is an amazing blade that everyone should be playing with.

If you want to make the process even cheaper, then you can ask to play with everyone's blade at the club in order to find out what sort of handle shape/size and composition feels best.
You're actually asking an excellent question here, in trying to figure out exactly what a high-quality blade is in the first place.

Very few large manufacturers actually bother to define it properly in their marketing materials (for entirely selfish reasons IMO), possibly because they don't want people's decision-making to be too well informed.

I've also just realised that -- despite all the various discussion of equipment I've read and contributed to on the TTD boards over time -- I can't actually recall any one of us (ie: the experienced blade-makes in the audience) clearly and explicitly outlining all the necessary factors that go into making a high quality blade :unsure: (at least, not in one single post they haven't, and not in any of the threads I've personally read.

Maybe there is such a list somewhere on the boards, but seriously -- who's got time to go looking for it?)

Given you've actually asked a hugely reasonable and entirely pertinent question, and given I have a vested interest in people being able to spot a high-quality blade when they see one (not to mention them being willing to pony up the readies afterwards), I decided I should probably address the issue.

Here then is my own (brief? :ROFLMAO:) attempt to rectify that omission, and explain precisely and concisely as I can, exactly what a high quality blade actually is, and how you can better spot one.


PLEASE NOTE:

Everything that follows is based purely and entirely on my own experience and personal opinions, as both an amateur player, and a professional bladesmith.

The following info is therefore as personal and subjective as a professional opinion can get really. Hopefully however it will also have enough impartial substance to it, that nothing I have to say is terribly controversial, debatable, or entirely self-serving.

As always, dissenting opinions are very welcome, as is further discussion or questioning on the specifics. I can't and won't share all of my blade-making secrets here sorry, as they are part and parcel of how I make my living.

Hopefully despite any necessary omissions, this can still act as a buying guide of sorts for those who genuinely and specifically want to buy high quality gear, from ANY manufacturer.


SO THEN -- WHAT IS A HIGH QUALITY BLADE EXACTLY?

  • As a bare minimum: a high quality blade is constructed from high quality wood, good quality glue, and has been made using consistent, efficient manufacturing techniques, in a consistent and controlled environment.

  • The composite fabrics you use in a blade (if any) matter in terms of playing feel, but not so much in terms of quality. Composites typically don't vary much from batch to batch in terms of mechanical properties. They are made to be homogenous - if you've seen one batch of a specific fabric type, weave, weight and/or thread count from a specific manufacturer, then you've seen them all.

  • High quality wood however is the exact opposite! Every tree, slab, beam, board, timber plank and section of timber plank is essentially unique on some level. No two pieces are ever truly identical, so at the end of the day, wood choice and wood utilisation matters far more in a blade than probably any other factor.

  • Regardless of the type or species involved, high quality wood is in short supply world wide. For this reason, a good quality blade is rarely going to be the cheapest option in front of you. Demand and prices for quality wood are constantly high as architects, builders, manufacturers, carpenters (and other wood-loving creative types) keep using the stuff to build things like houses, furniture, picture frames, wind generators, and other similarly useless items that you can't play TT with (wood-hogging bastards, the lot of them! :ROFLMAO:)

  • Even if your blade features layers of the most expensive, over-engineered, sci-fi sounding, horrendously expensive composite fabric on earth, that's still only 15% of your blade's volume at most. The other 85% is wood, glue, material design and manufacturing technique doing jobs the composite material simply can't.

  • Remember: Omit composite fabric from a blade entirely, and you can still make some magnificent equipment regardless . Omit wood from a blade entirely and you have two scraps of stiff, scratchy, semi-threadbare fabric badly in need of ironing. High quality blades are all about the wood -- full stop!! So can we please now just shut up about all the various weaves of Darth Vader toilet paper large manufacturers shove into their blades, to make them seem more high-tech than they actually are.

  • High quality wood is wood of the right density and strength, and which has the right mechanical properties for its position and purpose in the blade.

  • Good quality wood has no significant grain, drying or machining defects, and has the MOST EVEN DENSITY YOU CAN MANAGE throughout the length and breadth of every ply layer. This usually necessitates the wood grain having a reasonably even and regular pattern to it. Consistency is far more important here than perfection. Perfectly straight grain is lovely to have, but is not always necessary. Remember, grain patterns largely come from the way the wood is cut.

  • Wood with huge differences in density that occur over a short distance, should generally be avoided. Big density shifts in a small space = inconsistent bounce.

  • Wavy curly wood grain is often viewed with suspicion when used in a blade, except if its in a handle scale. However, even here, it really depends on the species, and the blademaker's overall intent, as consistency of grain is always far, far more important than perfection. Many woods have naturally wavy or interlocked grain, but can still make for a magnificent TT blade that performs beautifully and predictably (eg: Queensland maple!)

  • Large knots or too many knots are generally to be avoided. Small, pinhead-sized knots (5mm wide or less) are usually okay, depending on where they are located in the blade. The two big issues with knots are density shifts and grain variance. Density shifts cause uneven bounce, and grain pattern shifts can lead to uneven stiffness / hardness / irregular flex. Small knots (like bird's eye knots) however generally don't affect any of these factors hugely in my experience, but it really depends on the species, the location, and the individual piece of wood in question. Knots are knot (...sorry...) a deal breaker -- really it depends on how much you trust the blade's maker and their judgement.

  • Regular spacing of wood grain lines in a piece of wood is generally desirable. This does not necessarily make it brilliant wood, nor terrible wood.... it's just a little less likely that particular piece of wood truly sucks. Regular grain patterns *usually* mean the tree had regular growing conditions year on year. This makes it *slightly* less likely there are big density shifts in the wood, but there's still no guarantee either way. (Think of it as a generally promising sign, but nothing more. Apart from questions of aesthetics, the spacing and regularity of wood-grain banding doesn't mean an awful lot for the way it performs (Hinoki is a bit of an exception, but more on that later)

  • A high quality blade has tight butt-joints and thin, consistent glue lines between all the various pieces / layers of wood. Ply widths should be consistent.

  • A high quality blade has good balance down its central line of symmetry (ie: the left and right sides of each playing surface are the same weight.

  • A good quality blade flexes consistently. If the blade is symmetrical, then it should flex roughly the same amount in both directions. (If it's a two speed blade, it may (deliberately) flex more one way than the other). Regardless of its construction however, the way and amount it flex should remain constant from day to day. If your blade suddenly changes its flex, or if two identical pre-made blades flex hugely differently it can sometimes be a sign of delamination, or density shifts in the wood, or some other potential manufacturing flaw.

  • Cupped blades (ie blades with concave playing surfaces) are usually either a sign of bad wood, flawed construction, or bad storage conditions.
  • Cupped blades can still (occasionally) straighten out if treated right and stored in the right conditions, and can still be eminently playable afterwards.... but again, it depends on the blade, and the cause of the cupping.
  • [EDIT: I forgot to mention sorry -- while it is *possible* for a cupped blade to straighten over time and be usable, it's also relatively rare. If the cupping is mild, and tends to change from day to day, then that's a sign of normal natural wood movement, as a result of insufficient sealing. If it's a large amount of cupping, and it stays relatively stable, then it's far less likely to correct itself, and the blade is either permanently cupped, or else has far too much sealant on it. If sanding off the excess sealant doesn't then straighten it, you might need to consider just throwing it away. Like I've said before elsewhere: If the cupping is related to movement after its manufacture, then the blade is potentially salvageable. If the cupping occurred during manufacture however there's typically very little that can be done to save it.
There's a lot more I could say here, but I'll leave things there for now. If any other blade makers out there wish to add desirable features to this list, I encourage them to do so.

Hopefully the above list of features (if nothing else) will help you make some more informed decisions when choosing your next blade.

Hopefully it also demonstrates that:

- there are a HOST of factors that go towards a blade being of low or high quality,
- not all of those factors are easily discernible at time of purchase, and
- you can't make a silk purse (or a good blade) out of a sow's ear. High quality blades require high quality materials and high productions standards... neither of which come cheap in most cases.

I'm not saying here you need to spend hundreds to buy a good blade, as that's simply not true. At time of writing, you can currently satisfy ALL of the above conditions as a maker, and still buy yourself a pretty damn good blade as a customer, all for less than a three-figure sum.

That being said, hopefully you can also see that the lower that price gets, the harder it is to satisfy all the above factors with every blade you build, and the greater the scope becomes for makers to be forced to cut corners in order to produce a useable blade as a very low price point.

While I admit you don't always get what you pay for with a super expensive blade... it's also true to say it's probably not going to suck hugely either. Most likely it will be perfectly adequate, but just not to your personal liking if anything.
When it comes to truly cheap blades however, the odds of finding a truly great one going for a song, in comparison are much. much less likely. There's a lot more slightly over-priced high quality blades out there, then there are truly exceptional cut-rate gems quietly lurking at the bottom of the bargain bin.
 
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says Pimples Schmimples
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If you EJ through a lower price setup every month that is more expensive than sticking with one expensive setup.
Sure.
But this misses the point that if you find a great blade in the cheaper category then there is no need to keep buying and never a need to buy something expensive.
The price of things is often a placebo anyway.
The " I paid all this money therefore it must be better than the cheap one" or "I must persevere with it because I'm not gonna admit my expensive mistake" happens a lot.
If price were taken out of it most players couldn't decide between a $200 Viscaria and a good $40 blade to save their lives!!
But price and branding and player names are in there so it's very often desire and emotional connections rather than actual playing benefit that sway things.
 
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