FH-Topspin trainingsession with Battle 2 Bluesponge on FZD ALC

[Attitude]

Infos:
- I am the one in black
- This is the end of our training session, therefore i had to cut out a shitload of "bloopers" e.g. lack of concentration
- I tried to train usual topspins, power loops/topspins and faster leg- and upper body movement
- Opponent tried to block the shots into different fh to mid positions

Im putting some FH-Topspin hits of mine into a discussion because right now i am struggling to get consistent fh "power"-topspins. I can hit fh loops and topspins like 10 times or more in a row in a controled manner, but i have several issues hitting consistently really fast topspins.
The issues causing that imo are:
- the lack of faster movement from legs and losing the stability in my upper body through that.
- some errors in technique dealing with the blocks if they travel in different patterns
- slow recovery so i am not in position to hit again with the same speed and power repeatedly

If you find any more issues/errors of mine, feel free to comment. If you have any ideas on how to adress those and mentioned issues above, let me know.

729 Battle 2 Bluesponge shortreview:
Transition from H3 Provincial to Big Dipper 2 to this rubber went with ease. It took 1-2 training session to get on myself on my usualy playing level and probably even a bit ahead.
I use that rubber unboosted and i cant hit with it as good and fast as i did with H3 unboosted. Arc is great, the amount of spin i can produs is quite dangerous for my opponents (so they say^^) and speed is higher than BD 2 but still controlable.
It is a bit spin sensitive though, but so far i can deal with it.
If you have any question, just lemme know.

 

[blahness]

Imo it's pretty good and powerful already except it appears you did a half hearted weight transfer ie back to neutral, with your arm going forward rather than the full weight transfer directly to your left leg. If you did the complete weight transfer at the end of the swing you would be leaning forward slightly over your left knee rather than in the centre. The problem with not doing the full weight transfer is that you don't have more energy to push off the left foot to find the ball with your right foot again for the next shot, ie you have to reinitiate the movement rather than simply rebounding from the previous swing. Also imo more weight transfer = more momentum transfer = better ball quality in general.

 

[chris007]

Could you pay attention to the player in the video who is taking small steps, and make a comparison with yourself? Also, based on my observation, the opponent's incoming shots are not particularly fast nor particularly long, so you could try standing a bit closer.

 

[Attitude]

Imo it's pretty good and powerful already except it appears you did a half hearted weight transfer ie back to neutral, with your arm going forward rather than the full weight transfer directly to your left leg. If you did the complete weight transfer at the end of the swing you would be leaning forward slightly over your left knee rather than in the centre. The problem with not doing the full weight transfer is that you don't have more energy to push off the left foot to find the ball with your right foot again for the next shot, ie you have to reinitiate the movement rather than simply rebounding from the previous swing. Also imo more weight transfer = more momentum transfer = better ball quality in general.

I actually were there, but went overboard with it. The result was that i somewhat went too far over my left foot so i couldnt recover at all.
So you mean i should check if can find a middle path from what i am doing now and i did around a year ago? I could definitly test that out.

 

[NDH]

- This is the end of our training session, therefore i had to cut out a shitload of "bloopers" e.g. lack of concentration

Hey Attitude,

On this point above, just remember that whilst you probably look at those bloopers and think "I'm much better than that", those misses might give a bit more insight into some of the things you are looking to improve.

Most of your shots in the video are pretty decent!

A couple of points from me:

1. You are probably at the very limit of how far away you should stand.

The ball is very close to dropping below the peak of the bounce, and on a number of occasions it did, you had to play a slower, spinnier loop (and on a few, you missed the ball into the net).

It's also quite evident when you have to reach out wide, and you are having to play low to your right - If you were closer, you wouldn't have such an issue here.

Being closer will also give you more power - A lot of your loops are hitting the first half of the other side of the table (nearer the net), which is nice and safe, but lacking a bit of pop!

2. Weight transfer.

It might be the angle, but it looks like most of your shots are on your heels almost.

Your legs are doing a great job at supporting you, but you aren't getting any power from them - All of your power is coming from your body and arm.

Again, it could very much be the angle of the video, but there doesn't look like much forward motion from your legs/body, and it's mainly just your arm moving forward.

They are small changes to a pretty good shot already, so I wouldn't worry too much!

Standing closer to the table will help, or if you didn't want to do that, have you tried a more powerful rubber?

 

[Attitude]

Could you pay attention to the player in the video who is taking small steps, and make a comparison with yourself? Also, based on my observation, the opponent's incoming shots are not particularly fast nor particularly long, so you could try standing a bit closer.

Yeah i somewhat do those sidejumps at around the middle of my video but i cant seem to get to that faster pace and do those consistently. Any idea how to develop that technique propperly?

 

[Attitude]

Hey Attitude,

On this point above, just remember that whilst you probably look at those bloopers and think "I'm much better than that", those misses might give a bit more insight into some of the things you are looking to improve.

Most of your shots in the video are pretty decent!

A couple of points from me:

1. You are probably at the very limit of how far away you should stand.

The ball is very close to dropping below the peak of the bounce, and on a number of occasions it did, you had to play a slower, spinnier loop (and on a few, you missed the ball into the net).

It's also quite evident when you have to reach out wide, and you are having to play low to your right - If you were closer, you wouldn't have such an issue here.

Being closer will also give you more power - A lot of your loops are hitting the first half of the other side of the table (nearer the net), which is nice and safe, but lacking a bit of pop!

2. Weight transfer.

It might be the angle, but it looks like most of your shots are on your heels almost.

Your legs are doing a great job at supporting you, but you aren't getting any power from them - All of your power is coming from your body and arm.

Again, it could very much be the angle of the video, but there doesn't look like much forward motion from your legs/body, and it's mainly just your arm moving forward.

They are small changes to a pretty good shot already, so I wouldn't worry too much!

Standing closer to the table will help, or if you didn't want to do that, have you tried a more powerful rubber?

I know but these bloopers all have too obvious errors and dont have the focus i want this discussion to have. And that video would be way too long on top^^

1. Yeah i agree. These are all errors that come together of being too slow at the table. Partially due to bad and slippery gymfloors but over due to lack of training that area and beside doing sidejumps themselves of having not many idea on how to become faster in that area.
So to compensate i changed my position further and further away from the table.

2. I checked the video again and i suppose it is mostly the angle, because if i check my right leg i can see that pushing it forward and if needed slightly up to loop better. Dont forget that most of these shots are topspins and not very "loopy" so i usually dont push myself too much from the ground.

The only thing i definitly have to consider here, that matches your observation is the center of gravity of my body (i hope i described that correctly). I am not particularly on my heels but not far enough forward, so that i stand mostly flat on my feet instead of the palm of my feet. Hm, maybe that could help with the movement too. I need to check that out consciously in my next training sessions.

 

[NDH]

The only thing i definitly have to consider here, that matches your observation is the center of gravity of my body (i hope i described that correctly). I am not particularly on my heels but not far enough forward, so that i stand mostly flat on my feet instead of the palm of my feet. Hm, maybe that could help with the movement too. I need to check that out consciously in my next training sessions.

I think this is what I was trying to say - It's almost like you are "sitting down" a bit too much, and whilst you get movement from your legs (pushing off etc), it still looks like your centre of gravity is too far back, which will lose a big chunk of power in your shots.

 

[hclnnkhg]

Feels like you are forcing your forearm and/or wrist to accelerate to get more spin? Which makes your swing after the contact looks a bit tense.

 

[Choosikick]

I know but these bloopers all have too obvious errors and dont have the focus i want this discussion to have. And that video would be way too long on top^^

1. Yeah i agree. These are all errors that come together of being too slow at the table. Partially due to bad and slippery gymfloors but over due to lack of training that area and beside doing sidejumps themselves of having not many idea on how to become faster in that area.
So to compensate i changed my position further and further away from the table.

2. I checked the video again and i suppose it is mostly the angle, because if i check my right leg i can see that pushing it forward and if needed slightly up to loop better. Dont forget that most of these shots are topspins and not very "loopy" so i usually dont push myself too much from the ground.

The only thing i definitly have to consider here, that matches your observation is the center of gravity of my body (i hope i described that correctly). I am not particularly on my heels but not far enough forward, so that i stand mostly flat on my feet instead of the palm of my feet. Hm, maybe that could help with the movement too. I need to check that out consciously in my next training sessions.

I wanted to write about shoes right away, but I was too shy, then I read your comment about the slippery surface and decided to write it anyway. It immediately seemed to me that you were sliding and could not fully transfer the effort from the legs. I'll tell myself. When I played in regular shoes and then bought and started wearing Mizuno, it added more to me than new equipment. It is very important not to slip! Another would be to raise your arm a little when swinging and try to transfer the mass to the left leg.

 

[Attitude]

I think this is what I was trying to say - It's almost like you are "sitting down" a bit too much, and whilst you get movement from your legs (pushing off etc), it still looks like your centre of gravity is too far back, which will lose a big chunk of power in your shots.

I can agree on that. But i guess i have to shift my footposition then (left foot more forward, than just to the side), because i would say my upper body is already in a pretty forwarded position. Otherwise i dont really have a clue on how to change that.

@hclnnkhg For FH i nearly never use any wrist. Use of forearm is definitly in place. Im not sure if that is the reason for that. I would guess that i simply take too long to get lose after my stroke/recover from my shot.

@_JOOLA_ The shoes are actually not the problem but the floor, but you are most certainly correct.
Thanks, i will keep that in mind to transfer more to my left foot.

 

[chris007]

Yeah i somewhat do those sidejumps at around the middle of my video but i cant seem to get to that faster pace and do those consistently. Any idea how to develop that technique propperly?

Let's review the footwork in the instructional video again. Her feet hardly ever stop moving, and this type of training was actually mentioned earlier. It seems to me that the ball is not positioned too close to the edge of the table, and it mostly lands in the middle. You could try moving a little closer to the table to increase the speed of your back and forth movements. This will help get your feet moving.


View attachment 20230329_233812.mp4

 

[blahness]

I actually were there, but went overboard with it. The result was that i somewhat went too far over my left foot so i couldnt recover at all.
So you mean i should check if can find a middle path from what i am doing now and i did around a year ago? I could definitly test that out.

I think when ppl talk about going too much to the left it's more about the arm movement or body rotation, not so much about the centre of gravity. So basically it's just a minor tweak to have your upper body leaning forward above the left knee at the end of the stroke (no need to move your arm more or rotate more). The feeling is that the weight of your upper body is going from the right front foot to the left front foot (never the back of the foot)

 

[Martijn Heemskerk]

It appears your stroke starts behind your back instead of to your right. This means part of your energy is used in getting your arm around your body. In the block we see that you mainly have topspin and not sidespin, meaning this energy is mostly useless.
Starting from your right side also allows you to transfer your weight from your right side to the left, adding a lot more power aswell, instead currently you are using your body to "swing" your arm around your center.

And yeah, what others have said aswell. The further from the table you stand, the slower the incoming ball is, the slower your ball will be.

 

[latej]

I think when ppl talk about going too much to the left it's more about the arm movement or body rotation, not so much about the centre of gravity. So basically it's just a minor tweak to have your upper body leaning forward above the left knee at the end of the stroke (no need to move your arm more or rotate more). The feeling is that the weight of your upper body is going from the right front foot to the left front foot (never the back of the foot)

The stroke that starts in 1:21 and ends in 1:22 is a nice example of that weight transfer to the left foot...

 

[Comodoensis]

Infos:
- I am the one in black
- This is the end of our training session, therefore i had to cut out a shitload of "bloopers" e.g. lack of concentration
- I tried to train usual topspins, power loops/topspins and faster leg- and upper body movement
- Opponent tried to block the shots into different fh to mid positions

Im putting some FH-Topspin hits of mine into a discussion because right now i am struggling to get consistent fh "power"-topspins. I can hit fh loops and topspins like 10 times or more in a row in a controled manner, but i have several issues hitting consistently really fast topspins.
The issues causing that imo are:
- the lack of faster movement from legs and losing the stability in my upper body through that.
- some errors in technique dealing with the blocks if they travel in different patterns
- slow recovery so i am not in position to hit again with the same speed and power repeatedly

If you find any more issues/errors of mine, feel free to comment. If you have any ideas on how to adress those and mentioned issues above, let me know.

729 Battle 2 Bluesponge shortreview:
Transition from H3 Provincial to Big Dipper 2 to this rubber went with ease. It took 1-2 training session to get on myself on my usualy playing level and probably even a bit ahead.
I use that rubber unboosted and i cant hit with it as good and fast as i did with H3 unboosted. Arc is great, the amount of spin i can produs is quite dangerous for my opponents (so they say^^) and speed is higher than BD 2 but still controlable.
It is a bit spin sensitive though, but so far i can deal with it.
If you have any question, just lemme know.

In your video, it's obviously shown the acceleration comes mostly from the arm, resulting in a bigger followthrough

Try to use more waist/torso rotation, or abdominal crunches would be better, with a balanced between waist/torso/abodminal and arm acceleration. And also, keep yourself closer to the table. There's no point in going away from the table when the ball lacks penetration/pressure. Stay as close to the table as possible, to make sure you can contact the ball at the optimal timing, so you can add more forward momentum.

Big swings, compact swings, not a big deal. Everyone has their own tendencies, just make sure to be 'efficient' in every strokesa

 

[Gozo Aruna]

729 Battle 2 Bluesponge shortreview:
Transition from H3 Provincial to Big Dipper 2 to this rubber went with ease. It took 1-2 training session to get on myself on my usualy playing level and probably even a bit ahead.
I use that rubber unboosted and i cant hit with it as good and fast as i did with H3 unboosted. Arc is great, the amount of spin i can produs is quite dangerous for my opponents (so they say^^) and speed is higher than BD 2 but still controlable.
It is a bit spin sensitive though, but so far i can deal with it.
If you have any question, just lemme know.

Hi everyone,

Attitude is using a chinese tacky rubber and I just want to compare and contrast his FH topspin with mine. Do you all notice that he has to use a sh1t load of power to spin the ball over, whereas mine is assisted by the ESN tensioned rubber that trampoline the ball over much much easier. Just a little show and tell how different rubber creates different user strokes.

Do you guys think I am using too much arm / upper body strength and not enough lower body strength? Is it because of the trampoline effect I can get away with a lazier stroke ( not using the whole body? )

 

[chris007]

Hi everyone,

Attitude is using a chinese tacky rubber and I just want to compare and contrast his FH topspin with mine. Do you all notice that he has to use a sh1t load of power to spin the ball over, whereas mine is assisted by the ESN tensioned rubber that trampoline the ball over much much easier. Just a little show and tell how different rubber creates different user strokes.

Do you guys think I am using too much arm / upper body strength and not enough lower body strength? Is it because of the trampoline effect I can get away with a lazier stroke ( not using the whole body? )

If you are only practicing topspin or no-spin shots in multi-ball training, you can get away with a slower and more accurate placement of the return when the opponent's shots are slower and more predictable. However, during a match, you need to engage your entire body to generate the necessary power and spin to keep up with your opponent's shots. Therefore, it is important to have a well-rounded training regimen that includes drills to improve your footwork, balance, and overall physical fitness.

Table tennis is a sport that requires the use of your entire body, not just your hands and waist. While the hands and waist are essential for executing shots, your footwork and body positioning are equally important to ensure that you are in the right position to make the shot effectively. Therefore, a comprehensive training program that targets all aspects of your game will help you improve your overall performance on the table.

 

[blahness]

Hi everyone,

Attitude is using a chinese tacky rubber and I just want to compare and contrast his FH topspin with mine. Do you all notice that he has to use a sh1t load of power to spin the ball over, whereas mine is assisted by the ESN tensioned rubber that trampoline the ball over much much easier. Just a little show and tell how different rubber creates different user strokes.

Do you guys think I am using too much arm / upper body strength and not enough lower body strength? Is it because of the trampoline effect I can get away with a lazier stroke ( not using the whole body? )

Your stroke is actually not bad but yeah you're using a very fast setup lol.

The issue is that in matches, a lot of the incoming balls won't be blocks, but rather various underspin ish balls with various degrees of sidespin, etc... which can be a nightmare to deal with. If you don't loop those but just push it back, opponents will be looping those and placing you under the defensive.

Attitude's fuller stroke with tacky rubbers is generating more spin and thus will allow him to be a lot more confident in overcoming incoming spin with his opening loops and attacking first with good percentages.

That said, you can still do good opening loops with very fast bouncy setups but the technique/touch requirements are even higher imo. It's just trading one problem (physical effort and body usage) for another problem (trajectory control and spin generation).

Furthermore, fast bouncy setups will lead to serve receive being a nightmare. As someone who relies a lot on disgusting spinny serves I love playing against ppl with bouncy inverted rubbers much more because it makes their life a lot more difficult trying to control the return.

So essentially imo there's no free lunch in TT... you always pay for advantages you get elsewhere.

 

[turbozed]

Your stroke is actually not bad but yeah you're using a very fast setup lol.

Furthermore, fast bouncy setups will lead to serve receive being a nightmare. As someone who relies a lot on disgusting spinny serves I love playing against ppl with bouncy inverted rubbers much more because it makes their life a lot more difficult trying to control the return.

So essentially imo there's no free lunch in TT... you always pay for advantages you get elsewhere.

Don't want to derail Attitude's training thread too much but can you go into a bit more detail into the best ways to punish people with overly fast setups?

For service are there any specific serves you found that are reliably harder for fast rubber to handle? Or is it still about mixing up various spins and having bigger effect of them "guessing wrong"?

Outside of service, what other strategies are there for getting them to pop the ball up or send balls long?

I ask because almost everyone I run into people here in Vietnam has blazing fast setups regardless of experience and I'd really love to start beating them more with my cheapo setups.