Finally grasped the essence of Chinese table tennis biomechanical principle! (Chain reaction of power from the ground)

[Egon]

I think "shadow training" is a good thing but instead of practising with your hand/fist in front of the mirror, just take a real bat. It will positively increase the effect.

I do this only with a racket and imagine a ball in front of me that I hit. By the way, I also do similar exercises with a small dumbbell weighing 1-1.5 kg with my left hand, but in smaller quantities than with my right. This significantly corrects the imbalance of the back and arms that I have observed in myself and many amateurs. At one time, when I trained every day, I felt like a crab with different claws . Now it has become much better!

 

[NetProphet]

View attachment 35527
I do this only with a racket and imagine a ball in front of me that I hit. By the way, I also do similar exercises with a small dumbbell weighing 1-1.5 kg with my left hand, but in smaller quantities than with my right. This significantly corrects the imbalance of the back and arms that I have observed in myself and many amateurs. At one time, when I trained every day, I felt like a crab with different claws . Now it has become much better!

Reminds me of Family Guy when Quagmire discovers the internet 😂

 

[TTAntiPlayer]

Swedish national team learned a.lot of what they did back then from visiting Chinese training camps. In fact Waldner and Co spent time there as kids and learned a lot! He didn't say specifically about this subject but he definitely referenced it being eye opening about how much dedication and practice was needed to have a chance of making it!
A decade later team Sweden beats team China 😊
Anyway, a lot of Chinese things were imported this way

Yes, that definitely helped them a lot, but we can’t say that Team Sweden going to China was what introduced the full-body, power from the ground stroke to Europe. Here’s a video from 1973 showing that this technique was already in use back then, It might look a bit jumpy, but that was 50 years ago Milivoj Karakašević - Milan Orlowski 1973
p.s. I'm not denying it, but I'd like to see some evidence to support that claim, otherwise, we are downplaying the contributions of other table tennis coaches from other countries

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Everyone's talking about the adaptability, about implemention in real matches... Personally, that's one of the easier parts for me,

well, training is easy, implementation is the hardest out there in the real table tennis world, because your opponent is alive and not a mirror.
If you have a solution, then you will become the grand master of all goats in table tennis, everyone wants to know how one can adapt easily and even adapt after your opponent adapts.

some of us train 10s of thousands of hours and fail. and some is maybe over 10000 people in Asia, easily and your clientelle base will be the whole of Europe too.
I suggest you write a book, but I would like a advisory royalty of just 1% because I am sure you will sell well.

lets make money now!

 

[NetProphet]

Yes, that definitely helped them a lot, but we can’t say that Team Sweden going to China was what introduced the full-body, power from the ground stroke to Europe. Here’s a video from 1973 showing that this technique was already in use back then, It might look a bit jumpy, but that was 50 years ago Milivoj Karakašević - Milan Orlowski 1973
p.s. I'm not denying it, but I'd like to see some evidence to support that claim, otherwise, we are downplaying the contributions of other table tennis coaches from other countries

I think it's widely accepted that the advanced techniques of FH loop came from China while Britain and Europe were playing the Barna way, or a more static style.
BUT, maybe that's wrong!

It would indeed be great to see something on the development of the game over the 50s-80s in particular.
There is likely a documentary somewhere about it but I've not seen it.
I am just assuming that what I 'heard' was correct but as you say, it could well have come from innovative European coaches who were experimenting with the same thing as Chinese coaches as the inverted rubbers advanced to allow the insane spin we now take for granted!

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I think it's widely accepted that the advanced techniques of FH loop came from China while Britain and Europe were playing the Barna way, or a more static style.
BUT, maybe that's wrong!

China was short pip hitters in that era if I am reading your guys discussion correctly.
KLH was the first two wing looper

 

[StreamOfWater]

well, training is easy, implementation is the hardest out there in the real table tennis world, because your opponent is alive and not a mirror.
If you have a solution, then you will become the grand master of all goats in table tennis, everyone wants to know how one can adapt easily and even adapt after your opponent adapts.

some of us train 10s of thousands of hours and fail. and some is maybe over 10000 people in Asia, easily and your clientelle base will be the whole of Europe too.
I suggest you write a book, but I would like a advisory royalty of just 1% because I am sure you will sell well.

lets make money now!

Haha 😁 I can feel the sarcasm. Well, it's not like I am pursuing full-time professional career in the sport, that's for sure, although I do plan to play a bit more of semi professional as a side, probably still counts as a hobby, nevertheless I am incredibly passionate towards the sport, I do not believe there's another calling for me, bigger than table tennis that is, to put it that way. Maybe it'll exceed the semi-professional plan, it's hard to put an estimate to how far I can go... Fact is I know how high the competition is in sports, considering my age of 19, it's quite too late pursue table tennis professionally, as I started at 17. Players of that age already compete with best of the best, it's almost half-way of the career! There aren't any good/professional coaches in the area as well, so I am putting a lot of work individually. Although I have a "coach" which is one of the representatives in our country of the sport, he doesn't really train... Not sure why, but he seems incredibly irresponsible, carefree and doesn't take me and my partner seriously, he mostly shows up 1 time in a week for a couple of hours, so it doesn't help much, claiming he "doesn't have time". He is a coach of our university's table tennis, students have the free access to sports clubs and gyms as well as some free coaching services. I'm in our university's selected team, however... Maybe it's a matter of paycheck... Important to note that he doesn't play seriously anymore. So, I am currently basically driven by my natural ability, great analytical skills and feel for the sport... I am primarily studying architecture, however, at this rate, it's probably safe to say I spend more time studying table tennis 🤣, making notes, analysing professional matches, tweaking my technique, devising strategies and training plans, diving deeply into the roots of techniques (how and why they work) as well as nuances... So far, it's going great, I have hit many walls, but I have always found a breakthrough, even if on my own... If I'll end up achieving something serious or the tides of life will wash me somewhere else, then I might just consider that 😁, for now, I understand that my words hold no weight, at least for now...

 

[Bran]

I’m curious about the origin of the term 'Power from ground/Chinese weight transfer .' Do players from other continents not use body weight transfer, or was this technique first used by Chinese players?

I think it's just been popularised by some YouTube video titled this way. It may be more formalised now, but the physics / biomechanics of it were always there.

Weight transfer by itself isn't even really a means to an end, it's mainly a byproduct of hitting through the ball efficiently.

The importance of technique has evolved, though, with the end of the 38mm ball and speed glue. Waldner-like techniques aren't sufficient anymore with the reduced speed and spin of the plastic ball, that greatly contributed to a much more physical game.

You can watch this 70s compilation with people from all over the world, and they're clearly using their bodies, their legs to hit the ball as hard as they can.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I think it's just been popularised by some YouTube video titled this way. It may be more formalised now, but the physics / biomechanics of it were always there.

Weight transfer by itself isn't even really a means to an end, it's mainly a byproduct of hitting through the ball efficiently.

The importance of technique has evolved, though, with the end of the 38mm ball and speed glue. Waldner-like techniques aren't sufficient anymore with the reduced speed and spin of the plastic ball, that greatly contributed to a much more physical game.

You can watch this 70s compilation with people from all over the world, and they're clearly using their bodies, their legs to hit the ball as hard as they can.

probably watched too much ert pingsunday videos

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Haha 😁 I can feel the sarcasm. Well, it's not like I am pursuing full-time professional career in the sport, that's for sure, although I do plan to play a bit more of semi professional as a side, probably still counts as a hobby, nevertheless I am incredibly passionate towards the sport, I do not believe there's another calling for me, bigger than table tennis that is, to put it that way. Maybe it'll exceed the semi-professional plan, it's hard to put an estimate to how far I can go... Fact is I know how high the competition is in sports, considering my age of 19, it's quite too late pursue table tennis professionally, as I started at 17. Players of that age already compete with best of the best, it's almost half-way of the career! There aren't any good/professional coaches in the area as well, so I am putting a lot of work individually. Although I have a "coach" which is one of the representatives in our country of the sport, he doesn't really train... Not sure why, but he seems incredibly irresponsible, carefree and doesn't take me and my partner seriously, he mostly shows up 1 time in a week for a couple of hours, so it doesn't help much, claiming he "doesn't have time". He is a coach of our university's table tennis, students have the free access to sports clubs and gyms as well as some free coaching services. I'm in our university's selected team, however... Maybe it's a matter of paycheck... Important to note that he doesn't play seriously anymore. So, I am currently basically driven by my natural ability, great analytical skills and feel for the sport... I am primarily studying architecture, however, at this rate, it's probably safe to say I spend more time studying table tennis 🤣, making notes, analysing professional matches, tweaking my technique, devising strategies and training plans, diving deeply into the roots of techniques (how and why they work) as well as nuances... So far, it's going great, I have hit many walls, but I have always found a breakthrough, even if on my own... If I'll end up achieving something serious or the tides of life will wash me somewhere else, then I might just consider that 😁, for now, I understand that my words hold no weight, at least for now...

theory is all good
spin is physical
generating and controlling of spin requires repetition.
spin is the reason why table tennis is the most technical and difficult sport to master out of all sports.

I can serve to you, and you won't get the ball back.
that's how one sided it could become.

so good luck on your journey and the sooner you make more hours physically and less hours theoretically, the more you can understand the game.

 

[StreamOfWater]

theory is all good
spin is physical
generating and controlling of spin requires repetition.
spin is the reason why table tennis is the most technical and difficult sport to master out of all sports.

I can serve to you, and you won't get the ball back.
that's how one sided it could become.

so good luck on your journey and the sooner you make more hours physically and less hours theoretically, the more you can understand the game.

I specialise in serves myself, so I understand that, I began training serves very shortly after I started table tennis, I still contribute time frequently to hone as well as optimize them. I have also already built many strategies around them 😁 When it comes to practicality, I train 3-4 times a week, 3-4 hours each. Cannot contribute more time than that without sacrificing other aspects of my life, even if I want to. So I make most of every training session. I was probably misunderstood, it's not like my knowledge and "study" of table tennis is purely theoretical, I put in a lot of practical and physical work as well. I do many and different kinds of drills with my partner, multiballs, even physical training... I also incorporate match play with different kinds of opponents, I also participate in tournaments from time to time to build real match experience and hone my mental game

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I specialise in serves myself, so I understand that, I began training serves very shortly I started table tennis. I have also already built many strategies around them 😁 When it comes to practicality, I train 3-4 times a week, 3-4 hours each. Cannot contribute more time than that without sacrificing other aspects of my life, even if I want to. So I make most of every training session. I was probably misunderstood, it's not my knowledge and "study" of table tennis is purely theoretical, I put in a lot of practical and physical work as well. I do many and different kinds of drills with my partner, multiballs, even physical training... I also incorporate match play with different kinds of opponents, I also participate in tournaments from time to time to build real match experience and hone my mental game

great, you should put some of your matches up here, and we can see your improvements over the course of your journey

 

[StreamOfWater]

great, you should put some of your matches up here, and we can see your improvements over the course of your journey

I thought of that as well, I'll look if I can set up my phone to record 😁

 

[Dr Evil]

...Are you saying that it's useless because it doesn't mimic real match scenarios?

...Your statement about people's shadow strokes not resembling their real strokes is possibly the most telling. I reckon that's because their learned poor technique kicks in during matches and they have not properly muscle memoried their movements or just cannot move quickly enough between shots yet to get in correct position, so they play a substandard, suboptimal shot...

...As you said yourself, most coaches recommend these things and you're in the minority and fair enough, if they don't work for you then they don't work for you.

But can I ask then, what is your approach when you need to correct something?
Do you try to play matches with conscious thought involved in every shot?

I know players with excellent shadow strokes who struggle to reproduce them even in the easiest warm up drill. For these players it's clearly not a reaction time issue or that they're struggling with match play situations; it's that the action patterns they've learned by shadow stroke practice don't translate easily or at all to play which involves reacting to someone hitting a ball to them. It's the reacting to the ball part that I think can be so difficult to "stitch onto" the rest.

I also never felt shadow practice helped me, and training with a robot when I was getting started actively hurt my game (the first part of every lesson was my coach undoing the damage I'd done by practicing what I thought was good technique but wasn't). What has helped me is video feedback of what I'm actually doing in drills and match play. For drills I especially recommend video delay apps which allow essentially real time visual feedback.

 

[NetProphet]

I know players with excellent shadow strokes who struggle to reproduce them even in the easiest warm up drill. For these players it's clearly not a reaction time issue or that they're struggling with match play situations; it's that the action patterns they've learned by shadow stroke practice don't translate easily or at all to play which involves reacting to someone hitting a ball to them. It's the reacting to the ball part that I think can be so difficult to "stitch onto" the rest.

Very good. I can't really argue with much of that. Executing as you do in shadow play, in correct timing to a ball (varying balls) coming at you is indeed difficult.

What has helped me is video feedback of what I'm actually doing in drills and match play. For drills I especially recommend video delay apps which allow essentially real time visual feedback.

That does sound awesome, I'd love to try that.
I'll be setting up a TT room in a new house next yr.
A large monitor and a few cameras are part of the plan. I was thinking simple recordings but I'm not much of a multimedia guy (I still listen to Vinyl 😂).
Can you reconnect something? What do you use?
Cheers

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

A large monitor and a few cameras are part of the plan. I was thinking

big brother

 

[NetProphet]

Cameras in the TT room ONLY!!! 😳

 

[Dr Evil]

Very good. I can't really argue with much of that. Executing as you do in shadow play, in correct timing to a ball (varying balls) coming at you is indeed difficult.


That does sound awesome, I'd love to try that.
I'll be setting up a TT room in a new house next yr.
A large monitor and a few cameras are part of the plan. I was thinking simple recordings but I'm not much of a multimedia guy (I still listen to Vinyl 😂).
Can you reconnect something? What do you use?
Cheers

Sounds like you'll have a great set up. The app I've used is called BaM Video Delay.

 

[Egon]

Haha 😁 I can feel the sarcasm. Well, it's not like I am pursuing full-time professional career in the sport, that's for sure, although I do plan to play a bit more of semi professional as a side, probably still counts as a hobby, nevertheless I am incredibly passionate towards the sport, I do not believe there's another calling for me, bigger than table tennis that is, to put it that way. Maybe it'll exceed the semi-professional plan, it's hard to put an estimate to how far I can go... Fact is I know how high the competition is in sports, considering my age of 19, it's quite too late pursue table tennis professionally, as I started at 17. Players of that age already compete with best of the best, it's almost half-way of the career! There aren't any good/professional coaches in the area as well, so I am putting a lot of work individually. Although I have a "coach" which is one of the representatives in our country of the sport, he doesn't really train... Not sure why, but he seems incredibly irresponsible, carefree and doesn't take me and my partner seriously, he mostly shows up 1 time in a week for a couple of hours, so it doesn't help much, claiming he "doesn't have time". He is a coach of our university's table tennis, students have the free access to sports clubs and gyms as well as some free coaching services. I'm in our university's selected team, however... Maybe it's a matter of paycheck... Important to note that he doesn't play seriously anymore. So, I am currently basically driven by my natural ability, great analytical skills and feel for the sport... I am primarily studying architecture, however, at this rate, it's probably safe to say I spend more time studying table tennis 🤣, making notes, analysing professional matches, tweaking my technique, devising strategies and training plans, diving deeply into the roots of techniques (how and why they work) as well as nuances... So far, it's going great, I have hit many walls, but I have always found a breakthrough, even if on my own... If I'll end up achieving something serious or the tides of life will wash me somewhere else, then I might just consider that 😁, for now, I understand that my words hold no weight, at least for now...

This story reminded me of my childhood. When I was at school, my father and I would go behind the school every evening to play ping pong (I thought it was table tennis, but it was ping pong) on iron tables set up outside. I was able to quickly adapt to my opponents, and I also read Anatoly Amelin's book and learned the technique from the pictures, hitting a big tennis ball against the wall of the school. There were a lot of players, and over time I began to beat everyone there and considered myself a very strong player. But one day I got to a place where amateurs were playing with professional equipment and they simply destroyed me 3-0 without a chance. At that time, I was already a first-year student at the university. I was shocked. I bought professional rackets and began to train hard. After 2 years, I was able to take 2nd place at a tournament, and a year later I was consistently beating all the amateurs in that club. Now I understand that I am far from being the strongest player in our clubs and I have a lot to learn. And there will always be someone who will beat me 3-0 without a chance.
I got the impression that you just haven't reached the place where everyone will take you out 3-0....

 

[StreamOfWater]

This story reminded me of my childhood. When I was at school, my father and I would go behind the school every evening to play ping pong (I thought it was table tennis, but it was ping pong) on iron tables set up outside. I was able to quickly adapt to my opponents, and I also read Anatoly Amelin's book and learned the technique from the pictures, hitting a big tennis ball against the wall of the school. There were a lot of players, and over time I began to beat everyone there and considered myself a very strong player. But one day I got to a place where amateurs were playing with professional equipment and they simply destroyed me 3-0 without a chance. At that time, I was already a first-year student at the university. I was shocked. I bought professional rackets and began to train hard. After 2 years, I was able to take 2nd place at a tournament, and a year later I was consistently beating all the amateurs in that club. Now I understand that I am far from being the strongest player in our clubs and I have a lot to learn. And there will always be someone who will beat me 3-0 without a chance.
I got the impression that you just haven't reached the place where everyone will take you out 3-0....

Thank you for sharing your story! When it comes winning and losing, it's something I do not dwell on too much. I am highly competitive, so of course I'd like to always win (which is impossible 😁), but since the start of my table tennis journey, I have been surrounded by players better and more experienced by me, I had my fair share of losses already since the day 1, devastating ones as well. At first it was frustrating and incredibly demotivating, still sometimes is, later I transformed them into lessons, new insights and drive to get even better. I am certainly not the best player in my region, probably even far from it, at least yet, but I certainly love table tennis more than anyone else 😁