Flip technique difference: Medium/Soft Tensor vs. Hard Tacky rubber

[AutomaticBackhand]

I've been trying my other racket the other day and I tried to flip almost every Serve in doubles.

I was switching between the 45° grippy rubber and my Hard Chinese rubber on some serve returns.

And I found that I was much better at it with the tensor rubber, as that is what I learned the technique with.

With the Chinese rubber (LAC/Battle 3) I would sometimes overshoot or clip the net.


My question is: How is the technique different with a grippy medium soft rubber compared to tacky, slightly, harder rubbers?

Zhang Jike was using a Tenergy.

Today, Fan Zhendong is using D09c, just like many others as well.



Also: How do you flip those low underspin balls and gain the confidence to do so reliably in matches, like Wang Chuqin for example.

 

[codebop]

Are you asking about backhand flick?

 

[U871247]

I've been trying my other racket the other day and I tried to flip almost every Serve in doubles.

I was switching between the 45° grippy rubber and my Hard Chinese rubber on some serve returns.

And I found that I was much better at it with the tensor rubber, as that is what I learned the technique with.

With the Chinese rubber (LAC/Battle 3) I would sometimes overshoot or clip the net.


My question is: How is the technique different with a grippy medium soft rubber compared to tacky, slightly, harder rubbers?

Zhang Jike was using a Tenergy.

Today, Fan Zhendong is using D09c, just like many others as well.



Also: How do you flip those low underspin balls and gain the confidence to do so reliably in matches, like Wang Chuqin for example.

The answer is to train repeatedly and get a coach who will correct any mistake ur doing.

 

[Fnub]

To gain the confidence you have to flip consistently on trainings. Yea, you should get a coach who will correct mistakes. It's the easiest way. Also you can record yourself on a camera and compare yours flip to some professional's flips. Although I have a coach I use the second one more because I only have 4 hours a week with a coach and we prefer to work on consistency of other strokes that I use I a match.

What about the difference in technique, it refers not only to BH flip(banana flick) but to every shot where you make spin.

Tacky Chinese rubber's topsheet is not under tension so it's softer and can grab the ball better than the tensioned rubber. And the sponge is dense so if you'll try to engage the sponge intentionally you'll lose a lot of control and spin in your shot. For a faster shot the sponge is engaged by itself, you need just to brush quicker and a bit thicker.

Euro/Jap rubber is usually under tension so the topsheet loses its own grip and to make spin you have to engage the sponge where topsheet wraps around the ball making the contact thicker and the sponge's catapult can throw the ball.

So when you're using Chinese rubber(on the BH banana flick) you should close your bat angle and brush the shit out of the ball.
With Euro/Jap rubber you have to open the bat angle to engage the sponge but you'll still have to use some brushing to make the spin.

As for me I find it easier to brush much than to find a feel of the ball's immersion into the sponge.
The most dangerous Bananas I had were using 729 Battle 2 BS 38 on the BH. They had tremendous amount of spin and the trajectory was very unique. Also I was able to flick EVERY ball. But I switched to D09c because if the opponent could receive my flick I was like a pussy with my BH, bc I am not able to brush so quick to make a killer BH topspin.
I feel D09c's sponge helps me in continuing to attack but the topsheet is not so grippy and I can't flick low short underspin balls. If I open the bat to use more sponge I just can't open because the is no space for it. And I can't grab the ball only with the topsheet.

Can someone try to explain to me how to flick low short underspin balls with Euro/Jap rubbers? Because I have the same issue with any tensioned rubber (T80FX, G1, D05). I feel I try to brush too much and the ball slips because of the lack of grip. I know I should go more into the sponge but how if there's no space?

 

[blahness]

For me it is all about the technique. You can BH flick with any rubber. But it is just physically easier with D05 imo because it is less spin sensitive (incoming spin bites less on the rubber) and it is faster, so it requires less effort from me which is nice coz I'm just lazy lol

 

[blahness]

To gain the confidence you have to flip consistently on trainings. Yea, you should get a coach who will correct mistakes. It's the easiest way. Also you can record yourself on a camera and compare yours flip to some professional's flips. Although I have a coach I use the second one more because I only have 4 hours a week with a coach and we prefer to work on consistency of other strokes that I use I a match.

What about the difference in technique, it refers not only to BH flip(banana flick) but to every shot where you make spin.

Tacky Chinese rubber's topsheet is not under tension so it's softer and can grab the ball better than the tensioned rubber. And the sponge is dense so if you'll try to engage the sponge intentionally you'll lose a lot of control and spin in your shot. For a faster shot the sponge is engaged by itself, you need just to brush quicker and a bit thicker.

Euro/Jap rubber is usually under tension so the topsheet loses its own grip and to make spin you have to engage the sponge where topsheet wraps around the ball making the contact thicker and the sponge's catapult can throw the ball.

So when you're using Chinese rubber(on the BH banana flick) you should close your bat angle and brush the shit out of the ball.
With Euro/Jap rubber you have to open the bat angle to engage the sponge but you'll still have to use some brushing to make the spin.

As for me I find it easier to brush much than to find a feel of the ball's immersion into the sponge.
The most dangerous Bananas I had were using 729 Battle 2 BS 38 on the BH. They had tremendous amount of spin and the trajectory was very unique. Also I was able to flick EVERY ball. But I switched to D09c because if the opponent could receive my flick I was like a pussy with my BH, bc I am not able to brush so quick to make a killer BH topspin.
I feel D09c's sponge helps me in continuing to attack but the topsheet is not so grippy and I can't flick low short underspin balls. If I open the bat to use more sponge I just can't open because the is no space for it. And I can't grab the ball only with the topsheet.

Can someone try to explain to me how to flick low short underspin balls with Euro/Jap rubbers? Because I have the same issue with any tensioned rubber (T80FX, G1, D05). I feel I try to brush too much and the ball slips because of the lack of grip. I know I should go more into the sponge but how if there's no space?

Everyone flicks a bit differently but the method I use for short underspin is using more of the sponge. The way I do it is that the bat angle goes from closed (during max backswing) to open (during contact) to closed (during followthrough). Opening the bat angle is achieved by slight straightening between hip and upper body and elbow direction change (from pointing slightly upwards to pointing downwards) which is driven by the lats (ie back muscles). Then the final closing of the racket angle is achieved by the straightening of the elbow and supination.

My chiquita technique is a bit different because I dont use the wrist all that much, the power is mostly in the supination.

But tbh if it's really short underspin imo nasty fast long pushes combined with short push is superior compared to chiquita, unless the opponent is really afraid of the chiquita spin.

 

[blahness]

@Fnub

Check this out in slowmo and you can see that ZJK even has his BH rubber so open that it is facing the sky during some followthroughs (notice that he uses a closed bat angle during the backswing - this is required because the table is in the way). This is a bit more valuable than his older 'serious' videos where he would always followthrough downwards to the right after lifting it which makes this bat angle changes much less visible (although it is imo the better technique as it has more power and better arc control).

 

[Amayzde]

I wouldnt reccomend this kind of flip to anyone. It takes immense wrist strength most of us havent developed. Even if you have the wrist strength, you will also need the ability to read the opponents serve very early. Not just the spin, but also the exact spot of where the top of the bounce is going to be, then be in exactly the right position to strike the ball.

I reccomend you using this technique onstead:

Maybe it doesnt look as flashy as Fan Zhendongs flip, but at amateur level its more consistent and just as effective.

 

[blahness]

I wouldnt reccomend this kind of flip to anyone. It takes immense wrist strength most of us havent developed. Even if you have the wrist strength, you will also need the ability to read the opponents serve very early. Not just the spin, but also the exact spot of where the top of the bounce is going to be, then be in exactly the right position to strike the ball.

I reccomend you using this technique onstead:

Maybe it doesnt look as flashy as Fan Zhendongs flip, but at amateur level its more consistent and just as effective.

The fundamental problem of the guy in the video is that his positioning doesnt allow him to use his body effectively - he actually knows the technique to do a powerful chiquita (see beginning of video). He sets up way too upright for someone of his height and doesnt take the quick 3 steps to get into the precise position so when the coach serves to a more awkward location (for eg much shorter) he completely fails as he is just reaching at that point. But instead of coaching him on the footwork on finding the ball with his feet the lady teaches him an inferior weaker version of the chiquita lol, which will also fail in match situations coz he is not using his feet to adjust to every single serve.

 

[Amayzde]

The fundamental problem of the guy in the video is that his positioning doesnt allow him to use his body effectively - he actually knows the technique to do a powerful chiquita (see beginning of video). He sets up way too upright for someone of his height and doesnt take the quick 3 steps to get into the precise position so when the coach serves to a more awkward location (for eg much shorter) he completely fails as he is just reaching at that point. But instead of coaching him on the footwork on finding the ball with his feet the lady teaches him an inferior weaker version of the chiquita lol, which will also fail in match situations coz he is not using his feet to adjust to every single serve.

I mean, you just described pretty much 99% of amateur players.

Also, Id like to argue if that ‘worse’ version of the chiquita is still considered worse if it hits the table 9/10, maybe with 70-80% power. Rather then the first one, which he will probably only hit 2/10 times with 100% power.

And its not just the footwork, its also the ability to read the serve early. Fang Bo also said in his classes: “you need to see the serve of your opponent early, or else you won’t be able to use this technique effectively.”

 

[blahness]

I mean, you just described pretty much 99% of amateur players.

Also, Id like to argue if that ‘worse’ version of the chiquita is still considered worse if it hits the table 9/10, maybe with 70-80% power. Rather then the first one, which he will probably only hit 2/10 times with 100% power.

And its not just the footwork, its also the ability to read the serve early. Fang Bo also said in his classes: “you need to see the serve of your opponent early, or else you won’t be able to use this technique effectively.”

Ok I get the point. But still, teaching the correct 3 step footwork and correct posture to receive short serves is probably better long term as you pretty much require it in almost all other receives. Teaching an almost arm only chiquita will send the wrong message that it is OK to reach for the ball instead of moving there with the feet and upper body.

 

[AutomaticBackhand]

I found the biggest game changer for my receive game to be the pre-step that Fang Bo taught in one of his videos.
It took me a while to implement it but now I do it at least 80% of the time.

If the footwork is right, the rest becomes much easier and comfortable.

Standing back with your right leg and stepping forward once you see your opponent throw the ball up and getting into the motion to avoid being "frozen" when the ball is coming.

Today at our practice session, I was able to flip a lot of serves with good success.
Unless I lost my focus or didn't take enough time in between points.

My technique is probably most similar to that of Zhang Jike and Fan Zhendong out of all the pros.

I find that one to be the most intuitive and "easiest".

If I had to teach myself again I would put a lot of emphasis on these things:
Getting into position, bending over the ball, "feeling" and spinning the ball well.

Assuming you already have a solid backhand loop with good feeling and an ability to handle different amounts of spin.

Footwork and stance is boring and demanding - but fundamentally important.

 

[lodro]

just in case you have forgotten, what you are giving back to the opponent will be a top spin ball and placing it right is the most important part . Otherwise your fancy wrist -ball will be coming back right at you, maybe right through you. 😂😂

 

[blahness]

just in case you have forgotten, what you are giving back to the opponent will be a top spin ball and placing it right is the most important part . Otherwise your fancy wrist -ball will be coming back right at you, maybe right through you. 😂😂

Yeah that is the other important part, placement and also recovering well to gain the positional advantage in the rally. Btw we can create sidespin and even sideunderspin (not just sidetop) with the chiquita which will complicate things a lot.

 

[blahness]

I found the biggest game changer for my receive game to be the pre-step that Fang Bo taught in one of his videos.
It took me a while to implement it but now I do it at least 80% of the time.

If the footwork is right, the rest becomes much easier and comfortable.

Standing back with your right leg and stepping forward once you see your opponent throw the ball up and getting into the motion to avoid being "frozen" when the ball is coming.

Today at our practice session, I was able to flip a lot of serves with good success.
Unless I lost my focus or didn't take enough time in between points.

My technique is probably most similar to that of Zhang Jike and Fan Zhendong out of all the pros.

I find that one to be the most intuitive and "easiest".

If I had to teach myself again I would put a lot of emphasis on these things:
Getting into position, bending over the ball, "feeling" and spinning the ball well.

Assuming you already have a solid backhand loop with good feeling and an ability to handle different amounts of spin.

Footwork and stance is boring and demanding - but fundamentally important.

Yes, this is the 3 step method, right foot just when the opponent is about to make ball contact, then left foot steps into table and followed by right foot to the final position. The huge advantage is being able to adjust easily to further information from the ball bounce itself. So for eg if it was suddenly a long serve, the 2nd step with the left foot can even be backwards again to cut off the angle and avoid getting jammed.

If you have less than 3 steps then you have to guess the serve placement precisely and cant adjust if your initial guess was wrong.

 

[Fnub]

@Fnub

Check this out in slowmo and you can see that ZJK even has his BH rubber so open that it is facing the sky during some followthroughs (notice that he uses a closed bat angle during the backswing - this is required because the table is in the way). This is a bit more valuable than his older 'serious' videos where he would always followthrough downwards to the right after lifting it which makes this bat angle changes much less visible (although it is imo the better technique as it has more power and better arc control).

Big THANKS to you. Today I was able to flick with D05 everything thanks to you and this video. Closed->Opened angle is really important thing in flicking short balls. I used to dislike D05's grip but now I got the point and my flicks became very spinny. But again if I'm not into the position it's really difficult to make a high quality flick. Thank you again

 

[blahness]

Big THANKS to you. Today I was able to flick with D05 everything thanks to you and this video. Closed->Opened angle is really important thing in flicking short balls. I used to dislike D05's grip but now I got the point and my flicks became very spinny. But again if I'm not into the position it's really difficult to make a high quality flick. Thank you again

Glad it helped! Yes it is the key to the chiquita against short underspin, once you got it the chiquita is not that crazy difficult. Then if you start to use the body then it becomes even more physically easier.

Positioning is damn hard with the chiquita and is the hardest thing. Once you prove yourself to be able to chiquita everything, ppl will use a lot of placement variations to jam you and you have to defend against that. Then, the 3 step footwork becomes super important. But also you need a off the bounce BH and FH loop against all types of spins to deal with the random fast long serves, otherwise you can only do a weak push once you stepped in half way.

Tbh i have no idea how Lin Yun Ju is fast enough to attempt BH chiquita on super wide FH short serves while still defending long serves perfectly. I stopped bothering with that and just used FH receive against FH short balls lol.