Heard about this lately.... SYS vs CM

[mightymouse]

Hi, I do not really follow this issue and I did not watch the Olympic Women's Final previously.
But lately, when I browsed my Youtube channel, I saw youtube post talking about this final. So I finally watch it and now I am wondering.

In the youtube post that I watched, it shows that Chinese people cheering for Sun Ying Sha, while a few booing Chen Meng (during the final). When Chen Meng finally won the match, even the coaches (including Liu Guo Liang) did not show any celebration or happiness. They seem indifference. The youtube post even show that LGL jumped and cheered loudly when Chen Meng won the gold medal in her previous Olympic. But not this time.

So, there are two discussions;
1. Chinese fans love SYS and do not like Chen Meng to win. It is more about fans Idol which goes too far.

and the more controversial one is:

2. It is a fixed game, and Chen Meng somehow disobey the order to lose. It even shows that there was a company who already advertised and congratulated SYS being the Olympic champion (even when the game was not finished yet), only to retract and apologize later on. It is discussed that it is related to business and more money if SYS won the Olympic. It is discussed as well that SYS (if she won) is the youngest women to achieve Grand Slam.

Which one do you think is the reason Chinese fans and coaches were not happy Chen Meng won the Olympic?

 

[joshmak10]

They wanted Sha Sha to be female Ma Long, not female Wang Hao

 

[blahness]

Hi, I do not really follow this issue and I did not watch the Olympic Women's Final previously.
But lately, when I browsed my Youtube channel, I saw youtube post talking about this final. So I finally watch it and now I am wondering.

In the youtube post that I watched, it shows that Chinese people cheering for Sun Ying Sha, while a few booing Chen Meng (during the final). When Chen Meng finally won the match, even the coaches (including Liu Guo Liang) did not show any celebration or happiness. They seem indifference. The youtube post even show that LGL jumped and cheered loudly when Chen Meng won the gold medal in her previous Olympic. But not this time.

So, there are two discussions;
1. Chinese fans love SYS and do not like Chen Meng to win. It is more about fans Idol which goes too far.

and the more controversial one is:

2. It is a fixed game, and Chen Meng somehow disobey the order to lose. It even shows that there was a company who already advertised and congratulated SYS being the Olympic champion (even when the game was not finished yet), only to retract and apologize later on. It is discussed that it is related to business and more money if SYS won the Olympic. It is discussed as well that SYS (if she won) is the youngest women to achieve Grand Slam.

Which one do you think is the reason Chinese fans and coaches were not happy Chen Meng won the Olympic?

SYS and WCQ have a lot of fans (mostly women) in China compared to their teammates. Not exactly sure why, but I suspect it is because FZD and Chen Meng have a bit more stoic personalities. CNT loves making stars. So the commercial potential for CNT (read: $$$) would be higher if either of them won gold, but unfortunately things didnt happen this way. Most probably this is the main reason why their faces are kinda black especially with SYS losing the final, because it is in effect a net revenue loss for the team.

The other aspect is that CNT is also worried about the newer generation not stepping up. I remember when Ma Long lost to Wang Hao for the 2nd or 3rd time in WTTC there were a lot of black faces too.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

SYS was favorite
even sponsored already made SYS gold medal advertisements (leaked before the final started etc).

CNT does have the culture/history of asking its players to loose. I've met 3 of them.
I'm not sure if Chen Meng was asked to loose, but she was not supposed to win.
It wasn't the fans that was a problem to me, it was the digusted face of cnt leadership that was a concern.

If SYS won, she would bring a lots of sponsorships/money into the picture. Chen Meng is less value.
In terms of a business decision, sports decision, SYS should of won.

CNT is the only TT place in the world where it is a "organization". It isn't about each player, but about the organization best interest. So the matter is more complicated than most national team I know.

I am curious to see how Chen Meng is affected, positively and negatively from this win.
The last time something like this happen (winning Olympic gold), the players surname was also Chen, and a few CNT players were fired from the team.

 

[mightymouse]

Wow, thank you for the insight.

I know in the past, there were lots of discussion about "team's order" that certain players must lose.

Even as a follow up of me watching that youtube channel (youtube algorithm, I guess), there appeared another youtube channel discussing how a Chinese woman (world champion?) defied the order to lose and then was removed from the CNT. Later she joined Japan and then defeated Deng Yaping. Her name is He Zi Li (if I remember correctly from watching the video on youtube).

But as of year 2000 I always thought that there were no match fixings anymore.

I think it is sad if there is indeed a "team order". I hope that it is not true. Too bad for Chen Meng. I hope she is alright now.

 

[turbozed]

Hi, I do not really follow this issue and I did not watch the Olympic Women's Final previously.
But lately, when I browsed my Youtube channel, I saw youtube post talking about this final. So I finally watch it and now I am wondering.

In the youtube post that I watched, it shows that Chinese people cheering for Sun Ying Sha, while a few booing Chen Meng (during the final). When Chen Meng finally won the match, even the coaches (including Liu Guo Liang) did not show any celebration or happiness. They seem indifference. The youtube post even show that LGL jumped and cheered loudly when Chen Meng won the gold medal in her previous Olympic. But not this time.

So, there are two discussions;
1. Chinese fans love SYS and do not like Chen Meng to win. It is more about fans Idol which goes too far.

and the more controversial one is:

2. It is a fixed game, and Chen Meng somehow disobey the order to lose. It even shows that there was a company who already advertised and congratulated SYS being the Olympic champion (even when the game was not finished yet), only to retract and apologize later on. It is discussed that it is related to business and more money if SYS won the Olympic. It is discussed as well that SYS (if she won) is the youngest women to achieve Grand Slam.

Which one do you think is the reason Chinese fans and coaches were not happy Chen Meng won the Olympic?

Be careful, the last time I posted something like this in the Olympics thread, people came to tell me that either (1) there was nothing abnormal about the CNT reaction at all or (2) it's shameful to spread conspiracy theories. None of them will provide a reasonable explanation for the clearly abnormal reaction, however.

What seems to be more likely than not is that CNT benefits much more financially and popularity wise with a SYS win. And that they all expected SYS to win. Anything beyond that is just speculation and will be unknown to outsiders unless someone speaks out about it in the future.

 

[blahness]

Wow, thank you for the insight.

I know in the past, there were lots of discussion about "team's order" that certain players must lose.

Even as a follow up of me watching that youtube channel (youtube algorithm, I guess), there appeared another youtube channel discussing how a Chinese woman (world champion?) defied the order to lose and then was removed from the CNT. Later she joined Japan and then defeated Deng Yaping. Her name is He Zi Li (if I remember correctly from watching the video on youtube).

But as of year 2000 I always thought that there were no match fixings anymore.

I think it is sad if there is indeed a "team order". I hope that it is not true. Too bad for Chen Meng. I hope she is alright now.

Chen Meng is already rich af and she is also the cousin of a very rich and famous actor , she is more than alright lol, much more than us commoners.

 

[Dominikk85]

I would not speculate that matches are fixed but I can see that a young star has more future earning potential than a player who is nearing the end of their career like Chen meng.

The only exception to that where you definitely want the old guy to win is when some kind of all time record is broken.

For example 2021 ma long was old but he also became the first male two time singles champion which of course is great to market, as people love "Goat" debates.

However with chen meng it wasn't a new record, she "only" tied two other Chinese women for being a two time singles champion.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I would not speculate that matches are fixed but I can see that a young star has more future earning potential than a player who is nearing the end of their career like Chen meng.

The only exception to that where you definitely want the old guy to win is when some kind of all time record is broken.

For example 2021 ma long was old but he also became the first male two time singles champion which of course is great to market, as people love "Goat" debates.

However with chen meng it wasn't a new record, she "only" tied two other Chinese women for being a two time singles champion.

the expression from nearly all CNT members, coaches, bosses was unlike anything I have ever seen.
it felt more like a non CNT victory.

Chen Meng as far as I know isn't in the "bad" books, unlike some other player who have internal challenges.
Chen Meng should still be one of the favorites and winning should have been no issue imo.

if it wasn't for that image or few seconds of seeing the expressions of CNT.... this thread would only have fans value and nothing more.

so, I'm eager to see what happens or what could transcribe

 

[Gozo Aruna]

This is what I hear from my club mates who are more veteran.

They say, CM vs SYS, both are also CNT. Whoever win the medal, the glory is still CNT. Hence they, the CNT need to remain stuff upper lip as to not show emotion to whoever that win because whoever wins, is still a win for CNT. Hence they remain equanimous and adopt the stiff upper lip persona.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Imagine yourself as Ma Lin, both your students are fighting for gold. Who should you cheer for? Apply this scenario as a whole to CNT. You will understand it better.

 

[turbozed]

This is what I hear from my club mates who are more veteran.

They say, CM vs SYS, both are also CNT. Whoever win the medal, the glory is still CNT. Hence they, the CNT need to remain stuff upper lip as to not show emotion to whoever that win because whoever wins, is still a win for CNT. Hence they remain equanimous and adopt the stiff upper lip persona.

This doesn't make much sense. There's dozens of situations in other sports where a country takes both the top 2 spots. In almost every situation, the team is excited and cheers both players.

This includes China. For example in diving where China is just as dominant as TT, the coaches are smiling and look happy when the divers win even against other teammates.

Why not do what the rest of the world does and even other Chinese teams do and cheer both players on? Why is CNT TT the only team on earth that is instructed to look stone faced and grim while taking both gold and silver?

Even if what you say is true, it creates a really uncomfortable atmosphere for the athletes and fans, and leaves outsiders puzzled. And without any positive return for the effort.

Either they truly were unhappy, or they were instructed to look unhappy. If a TT organization has the authority to prohibit their players from even showing emotion, then they probably have control over more things then we would ordinarily expect.

 

[dingyibvs]

Be careful, the last time I posted something like this in the Olympics thread, people came to tell me that either (1) there was nothing abnormal about the CNT reaction at all or (2) it's shameful to spread conspiracy theories. None of them will provide a reasonable explanation for the clearly abnormal reaction, however.

What seems to be more likely than not is that CNT benefits much more financially and popularity wise with a SYS win. And that they all expected SYS to win. Anything beyond that is just speculation and will be unknown to outsiders unless someone speaks out about it in the future.

There was nothing abnormal about the CNT reaction at all. Here are there reactions after other Olympic gold victories:
CM vs. SYS in Tokyo:

ML vs. FZD in Tokyo:

FZD vs. Moregard in Paris:

I could not find pictures of the CNT observers in the Rio videos.

ZJK vs. WH in London:

LXX vs. DN in London:

IMO this is a product of the current geopolitical climate and a perfect example of how media narratives shape people's views. You said you've watched the Olympics since the 80's and have never seen this, but it's been more or less the same for at least 3 of the past 4 Olympics (I suspect Rio was no different, though I have no picture evidence). So why have your eyes and memories failed you? It's because you have a biased notion of CNT and probably China already, and new information is processed through that lens rather than independently. Please understand that I'm not trying to attack you, this is simply a phenomenon that affects literally everyone, yours truly included. There's a reason why there's so much money in media, and you really need to look at everything with a critical eye to minimize its effects.

As for some more nuance about CM and SYS, SYS has a LOT more fans in China. If you look at Bilibili videos, you see tons of videos meme about SYS's innocence, speculations about how much cuter she'd look with longer hair, etc. CM on the other hand is considered a sort of princeling, coming from wealth, with rich and powerful relatives. Her selection for the Olympics was not very well received by Chinese fans. If anything, the narrative in China is that the CNT is CM's backer.

 

[turbozed]

As was mentioned by @NextLevel, pictures absolutely doesnt do justice to the atmosphere. We should all know by now from life on the internet that still frames withe don't tell the whole story or can be taken out of context to completely misrepresent the whole story.

If you can post the videos side by side that would be more convincing. Full context is necessary otherwise it's not even a comparison.

 

[Wrighty67]

This story was even in the Times in UK this morning talking about Chinese athlete fans in general causing problems for athletes such as Pan Zhanle and also mentioning specifically CM & SYS!

 

[Sims]

Imagine yourself as Ma Lin, both your students are fighting for gold. Who should you cheer for? Apply this scenario as a whole to CNT. You will understand it better.

That doesn't explain it Gozo.

With both belonging to CNT it would be normal to be happy for the winner, whomever it is.

Go check the same final in 2020 or the mens finals from 2008 to 2020. There was a celebration for both players, gold and silver had been won. This was completely different.

 

[Sims]

As was mentioned by @NextLevel, pictures absolutely doesnt do justice to the atmosphere. We should all know by now from life on the internet that still frames withe don't tell the whole story or can be taken out of context to completely misrepresent the whole story.

If you can post the videos side by side that would be more convincing. Full context is necessary otherwise it's not even a comparison.

If you look yourself you will see that this was completely different to previous finals with 2 Chinese players involved.
And trying to deny the evidence from countless photos is a bit silly, the photos are taken from video footage. It happened. There is definitely something up with it all, was a disgraceful way to celebrate a victory. Makes a mockery of Olympics just for their pathetic politics.
So unsporting but hardly a surprise. Sport for sport doesn't really exist in China, it's all a political tool.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Imagine yourself as Ma Lin, both your students are fighting for gold. Who should you cheer for? Apply this scenario as a whole to CNT. You will understand it better.

I have seen a lot of finals between CNT players, its more to that I think.
You need to rewatch it, I haven't seen LGL so pissed ever after his players won the finals. Ma Lin wasn't happy too.

someone posted this in the other olympic thread, worth a watch for the video part (so not picture). Video does seem a bit bias, but the video does capture the unhappy looks of CNT.

 

[dingyibvs]

As was mentioned by @NextLevel, pictures absolutely doesnt do justice to the atmosphere. We should all know by now from life on the internet that still frames withe don't tell the whole story or can be taken out of context to completely misrepresent the whole story.

If you can post the videos side by side that would be more convincing. Full context is necessary otherwise it's not even a comparison.

The atmosphere is created by the fans, not by a handful of CNT members. Your eyes are certainly not lying if your complaint is regarding the unusually cold and cruel treatment of CM by the fans. I explained why the fans are not happy that CM won, I wouldn't be surprised that some of them thought it was rigged for CM to win as there's a good bit of anti-princeling sentiment in China.

For the record, I'm not excusing the Chinese fans' behavior. It's a shameful way to "celebrate" the victory of the most accomplished female player of her generation. Just because she's perceived as coming from wealth and is not as "cute" as SYS is no reason to give her this unprecedentedly poor treatment. I think this is an example of social media bringing the worst out of many people. From this overly zealous fandom of SYS, many of whom probably don't even known much about TT, to the cyberbullying of Hayata, these Chinese fans have IMO taken it way, way too far. It's against the spirit of sports and to be frank against the spirit of just being good human beings. But alas, with the cocoons they've built for themselves with social media, criticism such as yours and mine will never reach them.

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

This is what I hear from my club mates who are more veteran.

They say, CM vs SYS, both are also CNT. Whoever win the medal, the glory is still CNT. Hence they, the CNT need to remain stuff upper lip as to not show emotion to whoever that win because whoever wins, is still a win for CNT. Hence they remain equanimous and adopt the stiff upper lip persona.

Nope. Show them my post #2,568 from the Paris thread comparing Ma Lin's reaction after CM beat SYS for gold at Tokyo vs. Paris.