How do Pros train to "retain" a skill?

This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2022
4,968
2,477
7,818
A lot of times I practice a new specific skill. For example, I was practicing 3rd ball bh loop against LP push. The ball comes back dead and awkward, so its hard to attack for me. After about 30 times of doing this specific shot, I felt like I was hitting it very strong and consistently. It seems like "I got it".

But the very next day when I try to play a match against a LP pusher, I can't do it anymore. It's like my skill went back to 0. I'm sure if I practiced it 30 times, I could get it. But it seems weird that I keep getting "reset" to zero.

How do pros train to "retain" a skill that they practiced?
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
May 2023
402
249
1,661
A lot of times I practice a new specific skill. For example, I was practicing 3rd ball bh loop against LP push. The ball comes back dead and awkward, so its hard to attack for me. After about 30 times of doing this specific shot, I felt like I was hitting it very strong and consistently. It seems like "I got it".

But the very next day when I try to play a match against a LP pusher, I can't do it anymore. It's like my skill went back to 0. I'm sure if I practiced it 30 times, I could get it. But it seems weird that I keep getting "reset" to zero.

How do pros train to "retain" a skill that they practiced?
Practice 10.000 shots then test again😋😅🫡🏓🏓
 
says I want to train...
Here is what my TT AI gave as an answer, and I would agree with it:
"
This is frustrating, but it's a normal part of the learning process. It's the difference between skill acquisition in a controlled environment and skill retention and transfer to the unpredictable nature of a match.

Here's why this happens and how pros train to make their skills stick, keeping in mind the concept of progressive skill demand:

Why Your Skill Seems to "Reset":

  • Blocked vs. Random Practice: You're likely using "blocked practice" (repeating the same shot many times). This creates temporary improvement but doesn't build lasting skill that transfers well to matches. Matches are random, not blocked.
  • Lack of Variability: Your practice probably lacks the variability of a real match. Even if the long pips push is "dead and awkward," it's likely coming back with some consistency in spin, speed, and placement. In a match, every push will be slightly different.
  • No Decision-Making: In blocked practice, you're not deciding which shot to play. In a match, you have to read the ball, choose a shot, and execute it under pressure.
  • The Pressure Factor: Matches add psychological pressure that can negatively impact your technique and focus.
  • Motor Memory: True skill retention requires consolidating motor memory, which takes time and a specific type of practice that goes beyond simple repetition.
How Professionals Train for Skill Retention and Transfer using Progressive Skill Demand:

Professionals use a progressive approach to build skills that are robust and adaptable to match play. They start with controlled drills and gradually increase the complexity and difficulty, like climbing a ladder.

Here's how they would likely approach your BH loop vs. LP push situation:

  1. Controlled Multi-ball (Basic Technique): They'd start with multi-ball, focusing on the fundamental technique of the BH loop against backspin. The coach would feed consistent backspin pushes to the backhand.
  2. Variable Multi-ball (Adaptation): They'd introduce variations in spin, speed, and placement of the pushes to train adaptability.
  3. Controlled Random Drills (Decision-Making): They'd move to drills with a partner, mixing pushes to the backhand with other shots, forcing the player to decide when to use the loop.
  4. Semi-Random Drills (Footwork and Anticipation): They'd practice in a more open setting, with the partner feeding balls to various locations, requiring the player to move and react, using the loop when appropriate.
  5. Match Play (Real-World Application): Finally, they'd test the skill in real matches, analyzing the results and going back to earlier stages of the progression if needed.
Key Principles Used by Pros:

  • Random Practice: Mixing different shots and scenarios within drills.
  • Variable Practice: Introducing variations in spin, speed, placement, and height of the ball.
  • Decision-Making: Forcing the player to choose the right shot based on the situation.
  • Pressure Simulation: Creating drills that mimic the pressure of a match.
  • Match-Specific Drills: Practicing sequences of shots that are common in matches.
  • Mental Training: Working on focus, visualization, and handling pressure.
  • Spaced Repetition: Revisiting skills at spaced intervals to reinforce learning.
Applying This to Your Training:

Don't just do 30 BH loops against LP push in a row. Instead, follow a progressive approach:

  1. Start with Controlled Multi-ball: Get the basic technique down.
  2. Introduce Variability: Have your partner (or a multi-ball machine) vary the pushes.
  3. Mix It Up: Incorporate the loop into drills with other shots.
  4. Make Decisions: Practice choosing the right shot based on the incoming ball.
  5. Simulate Match Conditions: Play conditioned games and, ultimately, real matches.
  6. Analyze and Adjust: Figure out where the system is breaking down and go back and work on those specific steps in the progression.
By using progressive skill demand and incorporating these principles, you'll develop a more robust and adaptable BH loop that you can rely on in matches. It takes time and effort, but this is how professionals train to ensure their skills don't just disappear when it matters most.
"
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Aug 2022
118
164
282
The simple answer is that pros read speed, spin, and trajectory of every ball and react accordingly. That's why it is hard for LP players to compete at the elite level.

There's a youtube video with Craig Bryant working with Benedict Duda on serve/receiving. After missing a few serves, Duda is able to adjust with little problem. Duda tells him that he is reading the first bounce of the serve to determine the spin and ignoring the contact point and serve motion.

Pros are better than amateurs at reading and adjusting. That's why they are pros. This is the short version of the AI answer.
 
says Making a beautiful shot is most important; winning is...
says Making a beautiful shot is most important; winning is...
Well-Known Member
Mar 2021
3,642
4,030
8,871
I am paraphrasing a statement I heard from a seminar long ago.

The speaker has been a real estate agent for twenty odd years or so and has been a good one I suppose to be able to give seminar. He says day in day out he has been doing this vocation for so long, naturally he is good at it. You are talking nine to five plus weekend of twenty years.

The point is, pros train to play TT as much time as that real estate dude or perhaps even more. It would not be possible for them NOT to retain skills.

Think about it.

Fear not the man who practice 1,000 techniques in 1,000 days but rather fear the man who practice one technique for a thousand days.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NextLevel
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Sep 2024
447
441
1,311
A lot of times I practice a new specific skill. For example, I was practicing 3rd ball bh loop against LP push. The ball comes back dead and awkward, so its hard to attack for me. After about 30 times of doing this specific shot, I felt like I was hitting it very strong and consistently. It seems like "I got it".

But the very next day when I try to play a match against a LP pusher, I can't do it anymore. It's like my skill went back to 0. I'm sure if I practiced it 30 times, I could get it. But it seems weird that I keep getting "reset" to zero.

How do pros train to "retain" a skill that they practiced?
By practicing it a few more than 30 times before expecting it to be retained and consistently executed in matchplay lmfao.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
10,308
9,937
25,525
Read 3 reviews
So, you trying to compare "retain", with someone who started at 6 and have been doing 10s of thousands of it, for 12 to 20 years, with your 30 times?

why don't you use car racing drift and compare amateur to pros
or chef (you did it with the knife) when cooking with amateur chef to pros?

there is a reason why pros are pros and amateurs or amateurs.
it isn't just the skills, but the training behind it, the experience behind it. All those count for something.

and maybe, just maybe, the pros all have coaches, unlike some amateurs rely on self taught.
Just maybe, you are doing your 30 wrong, and so end of the day, amateur is inconsistent and pros are consistent. This is not about retain, but about consistent imo

if there is a solution to your problem that is "easy", then every tom dick and harry can be olympic champions too
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Nov 2013
225
141
379
Another training method to try - once you have "got it", do a drill with another stroke for a while, then come back to the stroke you had "got it". You probably don't quite "got it" again and need to re-engage your brain to more solidly encode the skill. Do this over and over and over again, and will take less time to "get it" each time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mattlamperouge
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Moderator
Dec 2010
16,512
18,200
56,251
Read 11 reviews
Another training method to try - once you have "got it", do a drill with another stroke for a while, then come back to the stroke you had "got it". You probably don't quite "got it" again and need to re-engage your brain to more solidly encode the skill. Do this over and over and over again, and will take less time to "get it" each time.

If it is block where, when he gets back to it, he is doing many in row, he still can end up thinking he's got it after the first few. If it appears in a drill where he does not know the placement or the spin of the ball beforehand, and the previous shot had a different spin and placement, and the one kind of ball he is having trouble with appears randomly in the drill, when he can make it in that circumstance over and over, because he reads the ball properly, chooses the correct shot, and adjusts properly, when he can do that, he will be much more likely to have learned the skill to a point where he can retain it in match play.

But just going back to the same block drill after doing something else that might not do everything needed for him to retain the skill and bring it into a match play scenario.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NextLevel
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Moderator
Dec 2010
16,512
18,200
56,251
Read 11 reviews
In terms of developing muscle memory, which section of practice produces more long term muscle memory: The period of getting in the zone during the first 30 shots? Or the 30 "in the zone" shots?

When would be a good time to end a session when you are trying to developing a specific skill?

If you are doing the "skill" over and over in a set pattern, that just simply does not mean you can bring it over into a random scenario like match play where the one specific shot comes at you after something quite different. So, if you are thinking the set pattern of doing it over and over will cause you to be able to do the skill when it pops up randomly after a completely different shot, that is your problem in a nutshell.

AutomaticBackhand's bot gave a pretty decent answer whether you understand it or not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: greenbeanmachine
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
Jan 2024
532
670
1,656
I've read some great stuff on habits back in the day I wanted to quit smoking. Something I've taken away from this is that it takes approximately 3 months for a daily activity to get ingrained and become a habit, where it's harder to NOT do it than to do it.

So if you practice this daily, in match play, give it a few months to stick.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TensorBackhand
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2022
4,968
2,477
7,818
If you are doing the "skill" over and over in a set pattern, that just simply does not mean you can bring it over into a random scenario like match play where the one specific shot comes at you after something quite different. So, if you are thinking the set pattern of doing it over and over will cause you to be able to do the skill when it pops up randomly after a completely different shot, that is your problem in a nutshell.

AutomaticBackhand's bot gave a pretty decent answer whether you understand it or not.
Right, but in my specific example, there is a lot less variation. In fact it almost always plays out exactly like I expect.
1) I serve dead ball to LP backhand
2) LP kinda pushes/blocks back a dead ball
3) I go to loop it with either my fh or bh

Of course, there is depth, height, spin, many variables. But relatively speaking, I feel this is a fairly predictable pattern. It's more like my hand doesn't remember the hitting feeling and the exact angle needed.

If I practiced 30 of these shots before the match and got into the "got it" zone, I think I would be able to do it in the game much better. But do other people also experience this "reset" experience that I am describing?
Assuming I keep practicing for for 3 months, will I experience less of that "reset" experience?

I even have this reset on my own serve (no randomness, completely in my own control). On one day I might get in the "got it" zone and get great feeling for spin and length and speed. Then the next day, I have the reset and my hand doesn't have the feeling. The Bot's answer was good and gives good insight, but I don't think it describes exactly what I'm talking about either. Because the serve has no randomness at all, it's just my own toss but I still experience the reset.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2022
4,968
2,477
7,818
Sounds like you dont fully understand how to do the shot and there is something wrong in the execution.

Fang Bo said it best: dont rely on feeling, make sure to get the technique down. With the right technique you dont need feeling.
That could be true. There are some shots that i always feel like i can do: bh punch, fh loop.

Some shots i need to get the feeling before i can do: push, serve, bh loop, loop on dead ball.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
Jan 2024
532
670
1,656
This is just about ingraining stuff into your subconsciousness. Even the service has a toss, timing, stroke, height, posture, speed, body, arm, wrist, grip... So many elements. Even the level of agitation will influence the result here.

Practice, and lots of it, helps move some of the elements to be automated, subconscious elements. And the more that gets automated, the fewer variables can distort the result.

When you get in the zone in practice, this is basically a short term memory action. Short term will get pruned and processed to be stored in long term memory. What you are experiencing is the human ability to adaptively replicate a pattern in your working memory. What you want to achieve is being able to replicate the pattern from long term memory AND influence your decision making so this is the shot your working memory will pick.

Really, this is only a simple version of events. There's a lot more at work than just what you see at the surface
 
Top