Is there a necessity to switch from BTY Primorac or just EJing?

[StehTischtennis]

Hi there,

in the last few months I made great progress and even reached a German rating of over 1500, which is a personal best for me.



This was quickly followed by a dip, which I even expected, because I personally would not estimate myself with that rating with my current skill set.

Unfortunately this personal best and also the drop in ratings led me to believe that I can and even should try a different more "advanced" (read: fast, stiffer) setup.

My equipment with which I reached my personal best was:

Butterfly Primorac
2 x XIOM Vega Pro max

A recent video with this setup:

I then bought the same rubbers and glued them on a Butterfly Korbel, which, I thought, should have the same properties as the Primorac. Just a little bit faster and stiffer, because of the same wood composition except the thicker layers in the Korbel.

I'm also partially blaming the newly glued on rubbers, but I felt this setup to fast and too much catapult effect, which in combination with my bad technique of using too much power and arm/shoulder led to many unforced errors:

A few lost matches led me to switch my setup completely just for the heck of it:

Butterfly Viscaria
FH: DHS Hurricane 3 NEO
BH: Butterfly Tenergy 05 max

As you can see way too much unforced errors and I always push high and long with my back hand. So no real control. In the second set I can see that when I fearlessly attack and flip with my back hand I can generate good spin and made great points.


So now to the actual question:

Is there even a point where it is detrimental for further advancement to stick to a relatively flexible blade like the Butterfly Primorac?

In situations where I could attack and aggressively block I liked the stiffness of the Viscaria way more then the softer feeling Korbel.
Unfortunately I also lost a lot of control in the push game or when I'm generally under pressure and nervous.


A friend of mine gave me his Butterfly Innerforce ZLF to try, but I hadn't had the time to test it.
Another user in a different forum also suggested the TSP Swat, which I'm also currently evaluating.

Another simple answer would be that I should just stop EJing and stick with my old setup until I can thoroughly test a different blade with the same rubbers, that is not that extreme different than say the Viscaria from the Primorac.


Goon squad credit:

 

[MDP]

I didn't watch all your clips, but I didn't have the feeling that the primorac+vega pro set up is too slow for you.
The viscaria set up is too different of what you are used to. A new blade and 2 new rubbers is probably too many changes to adapt to instantly. Something you can try straight away without spending $$ is putting your vega pro rubbers on the viscaria, and see how that goes. (and try tenergy 05 and H3 on your primorac).

I use vega pro on backhand aswell and I can imagine that i'd have a hard time when I swap it with tenergy 05. Too spin sensitive and high throw for my backhand.

We've all had these moments where we think we need pro equipment to get better or because we got better, but tbh all we need to do is stick to our gear and practice more. (this is currently working for me, using all+/off- blade and tenergy80 + vega pro)

 

[Shifu]

From what I could see:
The problem is not your hand/arm technique nor your equipment, it's your legs!
You don't move a lot when playing and you stand on your entire foot. You are often too late when playing the shot and that's where you do many errors. I would even say that maybe the Primo with the H3 Neo would be the best choice.
With that setup you must move and generate power yourself but you will improve a lot. Furthermore I'm absolutely sure your short game will improve with tacky rubbers. Maybe you are like me and don't need/like catapult effect a lot.

 

[chintanmashroo]

Hey there, you play decent at your level thats the good thing;
If we speak about being an EJ or not is a different story, let us focus on improving the game first.

Tip 1 - You anticipate the ball in advance which leads you in making the so called “unforced error”

Tip 2 - try to take a step away from the table after you serve, which will give you enough time to select your shots (attack/defense)

Tip 3 - Always try to dominate your opponent. How to do it?
- make him move from left to right (ball placement)
- never do the same serve twice/learn a variety of service along with spin variations/deceptive servicel



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[UpSideDownCarl]

Goon squad credit:
View attachment 14496

Who is that handsome guy you are at SPiN with. Hahahahaha.


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[UpSideDownCarl]

Alright, now for information.

I only watched short segments of each video. But I think I have enough info.

1) If you are going to change to a new setup, there are a few things that you may need to consider:

a) With a new setup, you should train with it, do everything you do in training—counterhitting, loop vs block, loop while moving, footwork drills, third ball attack drills, serve and receive drills, game simulation without counting points—for a minimum of 3-4 training sessions, so you get a feel for the setup before you start to judge things like your control and accuracy with the new setup.

b) If you are serious about wanting to play with the new setup, you should play with it for several weeks before you begin to assess whether the new setup is working for you.

c) You need to do your best to think out what a good place to start would be. I think you did this with the Korbel. I also think the Viscaria or the InnerForce ZLF that you were thinking about. ANY OF THEM COULD BE FINE.

2) To actually assess how good a setup is for you, you would need to be using the setup exclusively for 2-6 months before you really could judge.

3) By jumping from Primorac to Korbel, when you found that the similar blade, just one step up in speed class was hard to control, what on earth made you decide to try and jump 1-3 steps more in speed from Korbel to Viscaria? Did the H3 compensate for the extra speed and hardness of the top ply on the Viscaria?

Anyway, as I see it any of the setups you have could be fine if you train with them and give yourself enough time to get used to the one you choose.

But here is what I would do:

1) Go back to the Primorac and try upgrading or changing rubbers. Like T05 or H3 or MXP etc.

or

2) Use the Korbel and give yourself a few months to really get used to it. Play with only that. Do more training for a week or so. And either don’t play matches, or don’t judge how you play with the new racket in matches until you have done at least 3-4 2 hour+ training sessions with the new racket.

3) Use the Korbel with H3 T05 if you like those rubbers and follow the rest of the rules about training till you are more or less used to the new setup. And still, don’t judge whether you should continue with that setup for at least 2-6 months of solid play with it.

LAST THING: there are pros who use that Primorac blade and there are pros who use the Korbel blade. Why would you think you “needed” a “more advanced” blade than one that several European pros actually use?

The good news is, all the setups you chose are excellent. The real issue, I think, is taking the time to get used to the ONE you choose to try out first.




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[UpSideDownCarl]

And whichever you try out first, you could always try something else out 2-4 months down the line.


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[Ilia Minkin]

StehTischtennis, I wouldn't be worried about EJing and searching for a new setup. I think you have very good technique, I like your serves (especially the reverse!) and you play very well. It looks like you have invested a lot of effort and it has paid off. I think that if you keep doing what you were doing you will improve further. Drops in ratings are OK, especially short-terms. Everybody have performance swings, it is almost impossible to improve without a drop of performance for some time. Swings may last for months, but then you get a big boost. It is possible to be on a downswing for six months: train harder and harder and play only worse and worse. But it is OK.

Do you have a coach?

 

[rrepp]

You're a big fella and swing hard. But your control is not what it should be. I think you'd benefit most from trying something like MX-S but with 2.0 sponge, NOT max. this is not so sensitive to spin which will help you keep you services returns lower, as presently you pop too many returns up! Control will be your friend so try not MAX sponges. I do think Omega series has better control than Vega if you go Xiom rubber. I use Donic Acuda blue P-1 Turbo on my fh, and the way you swing it would be plenty fast, but will better control.

 

[shinhyun]

What I can notice in all your videos (I watch all of them) : you have to work your legs, your footwork, deplacement, try to flex them. You usually watch your racket : your racket is fine, no hole, no bubble,... you have to trust on your racket, it is mainly your fault if you miss the ball !
Some people advise you to take something faster like t05 but by my experience, the vega pro is fast enough (almost like t05) or maybe it is too fast for you if you don't change your footwork because these fast rubber don't forgive you !
So I think primorac with vega pro is good enough for your level (I see people with sriver in your level so...) the main thing is to focus on the technique, footwork, move quicker and use the power of your legs !

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I do agree that you don’t need a faster setup than the Primorac.

But I get how people want to try stuff like that.

The biggest indicator that the Primorac is something you should stick with is that the Korbel, which is very similar and not much faster, felt too fast and was harder to control.

But I do know that, if you played with it or the Viscaria, at a certain point you would get used to them and adjust your technique so you were able to use them well enough.

But there is no question that the blade that would be most useful for your technique improving would be the Primorac.

So many mid-level amateurs use blades that are too fast for them. And the equipment that will be most effective for helping you improve your technique and increase your level of spin is usually not too hard, not too fast and has decent flex. Just like your Primorac.

Whereas, to really, fully utilize a blade like the Viscaria, you would need excellent touch on contact because the Koto top ply is pretty hard.

Someone who is really intent on improving their technique, at your level will simply use a 5 ply all wood blade with decent flex in the Off- speed class. You do already have that.

And it is worth noting, several players in the European Championships used that blade.

And if a pro in the top 300 in the world can use it, it is not really like you can outgrow that blade even if you want to try faster equipment.


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[Forte]

I agree with what most people have already said: It is not your material, it is (mostly) your legs. You and I play the same in that way - we do not move enough or in the right way. I have a slightly slower blade, Stiga Energy Wood WRB, but faster rubbers, Tenergy 80 (FH) and T64 (BH).

I did notice that you sometimes fail to lift low backspin balls and that made me think of something Dan mentioned in his review of the Genesis rubbers: The soft version was really helpful for lifting balls when he was out-of-place. So maybe - but just maybe - a spinnier, gripper rubber like e.g. Genesis S could help up the situation a bit. But in general your setup should be fine for performing those shots so it is a matter of technique.

 

[qvoliszz]

EJ-ing is only good for your suppliers!

I was my self an EJ, but all I can tell you, nearly all of the modern tensors and rubbers have the same properties (some variations). So If you like one, try to stick with it, or in your case Xiom has a nice variety in sponge hardness, but I see you use the PRO, which is the fastest. So there are faster rubbers, but I don't see any reason to change those. The Primorac is a solid OFF- looping blade, quite a standard blade that can be recommended in it's category. So I would say your racket has sufficient power for the game.
One thing that I don't know, that you are playing with celluloid balls? Because as far as I know from this season 2017/2018 poly ball is only mandatory in the Oberleague and/or Regional league. For old celluloid ball your setup is fine. For poly you can stiffen your setup a bit. BUT!!!!
Don't change equipment drastically, always change 1 thing and use it for an extended period. Getting used to a setup can take 6 months! And do training drills all the time with it! You make the equipment play, not contrawise! It is a thing to have confidence in your equipment, but not hope, that it will make you a table-tennis God!
From your videos I can tell you, that your footwork is lazy and sloppy, you should speed up your game with fixed drills, than random drills. Your attacking moves are out of position most of the time, because you misread the opponent. You don't play your hits in an aggressive manner, you simply give your opponent an opportunity to attack with your returns.

So Stick with your blade for a time and practice:
- service return/attack from FH and BH, opponent serves long or short randomly only on one side
- 2 FH -2 BH loops
- 1 BH - 1 pivot FH and 2 FH loops
- 1 or 2 BH loop, 1 or 2 FH loop
- 1 FH loop from middle and 1 random loop from FH or BH
- 1 FH flick (to short underspin serve), 1 FH loop, 1 BH loop (wide), 1 FH finishing shot,
- 1 BH flick (-II-), 1 BH loop, 1 FH loop (wide), BH finishing shot (to a not high lobbed ball)

Probably these excerscizes will get your heartrate up and make you move a bit and your game will improve a lot.

 

[langel]

I agree that for now your current setup is good enough.
May be a spinnier and gripper rubber will give you improvement /I agree about the lifting problem Forte has mentioned/.
As you are already familiar with Xiom Vega Pro, I would recommend Vega Asia DF. Not the regular Asia, but the Dynamic Friction one. It is softer than the regular one and is about the same hardness as Pro, but is a little bit faster, spinnier and with better control.
I would not recommend Omega rubbers on your Primorac. They are excellent rubbers, but its better to switch to them when you are ready for a much faster setup. They play best with composite blades.

 

[NextLevel]

Your backhand is really good and can support a faster blade on offensive shots. Your forehand and short game, not so much. To use faster equipment, you have to trust your spin acceleration even on touch shots. When you do then faster equipment is usable. OTherwise, just stick to slower equipment. The time to try faster equipment is when you think you are very consistent but are unable to put the ball past your opponents consistently or you want to adjust your usual rally distance to the table. In any case, think about your strengths and weaknesses and how equipment supports it.

 

[StehTischtennis]

3) By jumping from Primorac to Korbel, when you found that the similar blade, just one step up in speed class was hard to control, what on earth made you decide to try and jump 1-3 steps more in speed from Korbel to Viscaria? Did the H3 compensate for the extra speed and hardness of the top ply on the Viscaria?

My thinking was: if any change in my setup does hurt (even going from Primo to Korbel) then why not do an even bigger jump to something even more extreme.

LAST THING: there are pros who use that Primorac blade and there are pros who use the Korbel blade. Why would you think you “needed” a “more advanced” blade than one that several European pros actually use?

Honestly I thought that a change to a stiffer more "advance" equipment goes hand in hand with a skill increase.
Like youngsters, who change their equipment accordingly. Maybe I just don't want to end up as the old guy who still uses his slow all wood blade for decades

 

[StehTischtennis]

Do you have a coach?

We do have a coach, but he is mostly just overseeing and explaining the training exercises once a week and gives me short hints and comment like "Do this lower, faster, more hip movement". Not really a 1-on-1 training situation with multi ball drill and individual training.

 

[qvoliszz]

We do have a coach, but he is mostly just overseeing and explaining the training exercises once a week and gives me short hints and comment like "Do this lower, faster, more hip movement". Not really a 1-on-1 training situation with multi ball drill and individual training.

Do you have some permanent friends/partners to do 1-on-1 excerscizes? I know that is not always possible.

 

[StehTischtennis]

Thank you all for your comments!

I'll stick with my current setup, like I said to myself I would before this season started

I already know that my biggest weakness is my footwork, that's why my Youtube channel and this account is called "Steh Tischtennis", which translates to "Standing Table Tennis"

Investing more time into footwork drills instead of adjusting to new equipment seems to be the better way to improve. I just needed to hear that again from someone.

Thoroughly testing a new blade should only happen off season, which for me and my team will not be possible until next summer.
Which is something that I need to accept..

Is there a general agreement on what would be the most sensible step up from the Primorac? Is it really still only the Korbel?

 

[StehTischtennis]

Do you have some permanent friends/partners to do 1-on-1 excerscizes? I know that is not always possible.

Yes, I do have a buddy on my team who's also crazy into table tennis and we are often doing ~3 hours training sessions with different exercises.
We are almost the same level, which also means that we are having difficulties doing really complex and demanding exercises.

This is something, I think, where multi ball exercises would be better. We plan on doing that with just the two of us though.