Limba, Hinoki, Ayous or Koto?

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But wouldn't you say that on hard topspin loops that Inner is faster than Outer?
To me that doesn’t make any sense. They would, at the very least, be equal to each other given that they both have carbon structures, and the very most outer is faster. In my opinion outer carbon is faster than inner carbon from all ends of the spectrum. It just makes sense when you think about it.

I think it was Dima who said something along the lines of switching to inner structure for safety and that he was following ma long’s thought process.




 
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I think in terms of just a flat hit, your thought would be right. That the outer carbon would always be faster.

But because the stroke is not a direct stroke and also involves spin and angles, the inner carbon is faster and spinnier on the heavy strokes.
 
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I think in terms of just a flat hit, your thought would be right. That the outer carbon would always be faster.

But because the stroke is not a direct stroke and also involves spin and angles, the inner carbon is faster and spinnier on the heavy strokes.

still no.

I'm imagining a CNT type of loop where they are hitting and still spinning. However you look at it, outer is still faster. More spin on inner- maybe? Maybe if you are fully going for spin, AND only spin, inner would produce more because it has more dwell. But on hard hitting shots, they are about the same- if not, the outer is faster.

However you strike the ball, it still goes through Top ply and then carbon, as opposed to top-wood-carbon...

Dima argument still stands...

How can you be so sure that inner carbon is faster than outer carbon? In any iteration of inner and outer- outer is the faster.

 
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With carbon type fleeces, and there are a few different types of fibres, combinations of fibres and weave patterns!! Different resins and adhesives, combined with the multitude of wood types and veneer thicknesses and weave orientation to to grain of the wood !!! It’s possible for skilled blade manufacturers and makers to make an inner play faster than an outer layer blade.
Almost endless combinations!!
Generally, it is usually considered by manufacturers that for a blade of the same composition, ie sequence and type of veneers, using the same fleece, resins / glue, orientation of fleece etc that an inner is slower than outer.
However I’m no expert!!
 
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still no.

I'm imagining a CNT type of loop where they are hitting and still spinning. However you look at it, outer is still faster. More spin on inner- maybe? Maybe if you are fully going for spin, AND only spin, inner would produce more because it has more dwell. But on hard hitting shots, they are about the same- if not, the outer is faster.

However you strike the ball, it still goes through Top ply and then carbon, as opposed to top-wood-carbon...

Dima argument still stands...

How can you be so sure that inner carbon is faster than outer carbon? In any iteration of inner and outer- outer is the faster.

Actually I really dont know. I think i got this idea from people saying that the top end speed of inner is faster than outer.

And when i hit with viscaria vs hl5, the hl5 seemed faster on the top end. But maybe its more of a placebo effect.

 
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One more thing about hinoki: you will find different thoughts about the Hinoki-feeling in the net. Some players write that hinoki is a hard wood, some others write, that it is really soft.

I have also tested different kinds of hinoki blades over the years.
- you will definitely get the purest hinoki feeling with a 1-ply like Darker Speed 90, but this is a really special thing: fast, stiff, soft.
- all-hinoki blades feel similar, but the more plies the blade has, the more it feels "normal" and loses the special hinoki feeling.
- a thick hinoki outer ply feels softer than a thin ply. For example the Nittaku Septear Carbon has a thin outer and feels hard.

Koto has a more direct, but also more bouncy feeling compared with limba. Especially backhand players like FZD or players with short arm-movement will like it. On the other side forehand-players (especially with a long arm movement) will prefer limba-inner-carbon-blades because the ball stays longer on the blade.

If I see it right, there are not much players who play with limba outer and the composite-layer directly under the top. Instead of this they mostly use the fibre over the core (inner-layer). In opposite of this those players who prefer koto as top ply mostly use the fibre directly under the koto top (outer layer).
 
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Inner is more like an all wood blade with more speed potential on the top end. Noticeable speed boost when you get the carbon to activate.

Outer is a lot more fun to use in my opinion. Since the
carbon layer is right next to the top ply it’s easier to activate and use carbon’s benefit.

outer carbon is naturally faster. To me, I feel that it’s easier to use, but has less dwell. It’s more direct, and it’s an easier access to the top end. The hand feel is solid and it feels good. I feel like with outer (viscaria) I didn’t have to try super hard to spin or send the ball quickly.

inner carbon is more like a 5-ply, with more control and more arc. Once you activate the carbon, the speed is about the same as an outer carbon. Activating the carbon usually requires a hard swing. Hand feel can feel strange because of the carbon layer is muted.

if you want an all wood feeling, get inner carbon.
If you want a typical carbon experience get outer.

Do you think it also depends on the style of play each individual players have? I mean the type of carbon they choose either outer alc or inner alc. IMO, it does greater or lesser to an extent. For instance, FZD is more of a two-wing looper whereas ma long is a FH dominant player (does not mean his BH is weak, it isn't indeed and his defensive bh is insane and his bh's so safe litetally)

I've used BTY SK Carbob blade which is the TAMCA 5000 carbon type and i find it a little bit of too fast, vibrates alot and not that stable personally for me and it's also an outer layer carbon so I'm considering to try inner carbon blade this time and that's one of the reasons why I'm very curious and eager looking forward the new TMXi blade from Xiom. Actually other inner carbon blades as well. I want a carbon blade which is fast but not overly fast (but still fast enough), good control, stable, safe and quite forgiving, I'm not a very offensive game type player, not too active more of a passive player and I'm also looking forward to improve my fh since I believe it's alot weaker compare to my bh; my bh is pretty stable and at last, I’m an amateur. Though I've never tried before, usually inner carbon blades are known to have good control possessing great stableness, fast and able to generate spinny shots at the same time have to exert a proper loop to do so. But of course somehow I should ask more experience players than I am in order for me to understand things well. That's what I'm here for🙌 With much curiosities, willingness to gain knowledge and respect to everyone. Longing for more answers here and there. Cheers !!

 
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One more thing about hinoki: you will find different thoughts about the Hinoki-feeling in the net. Some players write that hinoki is a hard wood, some others write, that it is really soft.

I have also tested different kinds of hinoki blades over the years.
- you will definitely get the purest hinoki feeling with a 1-ply like Darker Speed 90, but this is a really special thing: fast, stiff, soft.
- all-hinoki blades feel similar, but the more plies the blade has, the more it feels "normal" and loses the special hinoki feeling.
- a thick hinoki outer ply feels softer than a thin ply. For example the Nittaku Septear Carbon has a thin outer and feels hard.

Koto has a more direct, but also more bouncy feeling compared with limba. Especially backhand players like FZD or players with short arm-movement will like it. On the other side forehand-players (especially with a long arm movement) will prefer limba-inner-carbon-blades because the ball stays longer on the blade.

If I see it right, there are not much players who play with limba outer and the composite-layer directly under the top. Instead of this they mostly use the fibre over the core (inner-layer). In opposite of this those players who prefer koto as top ply mostly use the fibre directly under the koto top (outer layer).

Yes, I agree with most of this. I found with koto top ply you need to have more of an upward swing motion since the koto just shoots the ball forward and doesn't lift so much, while with limba during your stroke you need to push the ball forward, otherwise your shot will be too slow/soft, since limba holds the ball quite a lot.

Actually to my surprise there are quite a few who use or used outer limba blades. Mizutani blades and Victas blades are quite popular, Victas more in Japan tho for some reason, Mima Ito carbon, or Nittaku Accoustic carbon. Stiga Carbonado was used by a few pros too.

 
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Do you think it also depends on the style of play each individual players have? I mean the type of carbon they choose either outer alc or inner alc. IMO, it does greater or lesser to an extent. For instance, FZD is more of a two-wing looper whereas ma long is a FH dominant player (does not mean his BH is weak, it isn't indeed and his defensive bh is insane and his bh's so safe litetally)

Does it depend on playstyle? Maybe… But to me more so preference. Ma Long used Timo Boll Spirit and Timo ALC for a bit in his career until he switched to W968. Was that to say he was a two winged looper at the time? Not really, if anything more forehand dominant in his earlier years.

At the same time many players express the ease of use of the viscaria over w968. Many people on Chinese forums also think that it’s easier to backhand on viscaria… So part of it is somewhat playstyle… But preference more than anything.

with inner, in my experience, it forces you to have good footwork, and good positioning- avery active playstyle.

i feel like with any off rated outer, you can get away with being lazier on your feet.

 
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Does it depend on playstyle? Maybe… But to me more so preference. Ma Long used Timo Boll Spirit and Timo ALC for a bit in his career until he switched to W968. Was that to say he was a two winged looper at the time? Not really, if anything more forehand dominant in his earlier years.

At the same time many players express the ease of use of the viscaria over w968. Many people on Chinese forums also think that it’s easier to backhand on viscaria… So part of it is somewhat playstyle… But preference more than anything.

with inner, in my experience, it forces you to have good footwork, and good positioning- avery active playstyle.

i feel like with any off rated outer, you can get away with being lazier on your feet.

I see. Once gain thanks and much appreciated for sharing your point of view

 
One more thing about hinoki: you will find different thoughts about the Hinoki-feeling in the net. Some players write that hinoki is a hard wood, some others write, that it is really soft.

I have also tested different kinds of hinoki blades over the years.
- you will definitely get the purest hinoki feeling with a 1-ply like Darker Speed 90, but this is a really special thing: fast, stiff, soft.
- all-hinoki blades feel similar, but the more plies the blade has, the more it feels "normal" and loses the special hinoki feeling.
- a thick hinoki outer ply feels softer than a thin ply. For example the Nittaku Septear Carbon has a thin outer and feels hard.

Koto has a more direct, but also more bouncy feeling compared with limba. Especially backhand players like FZD or players with short arm-movement will like it. On the other side forehand-players (especially with a long arm movement) will prefer limba-inner-carbon-blades because the ball stays longer on the blade.

If I see it right, there are not much players who play with limba outer and the composite-layer directly under the top. Instead of this they mostly use the fibre over the core (inner-layer). In opposite of this those players who prefer koto as top ply mostly use the fibre directly under the koto top (outer layer).
Thxxx! You really explain it well

 
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To me that doesn’t make any sense. They would, at the very least, be equal to each other given that they both have carbon structures, and the very most outer is faster. In my opinion outer carbon is faster than inner carbon from all ends of the spectrum. It just makes sense when you think about it.

I think it was Dima who said something along the lines of switching to inner structure for safety and that he was following ma long’s thought process.
I wasn't going to say anything on that comment but I 1000% agree and it has not been my experience when playing with both.

Michael, you are comparing two totally different blades. If DHS made a blade that was exactly the same components and gluing process and just switched where the outer ply was--took sheets of wood large enough to make 2 blades and made 2 blades and they are from the same pieces of wood, and used the same blade construction methods, so the blades were exactly the same except the composite layer was next to the top ply in one and next to the core in the other, the OUTER CARBON would be faster in all aspects.

I was actually going to ask you what made you think that. But I did realize you are likely comparing Butterfly Outer Carbon blades to DHS ML5 which, if I am not mistaken, is notably faster than most Butterfly Inner Carbon offerings.

So, it is just that you are making comparisons that don't hold up. If I compared the speed of a Clipper, say, a Clipper that played faster than average (the 97 gram Clipper I had was a beautiful beast) and compared it to a slower carbon blade you could come up with the idea that All Wood 7 Ply is faster than Carbon. But the test group is not representative so the study would be flawed.
 
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One more thing about hinoki: you will find different thoughts about the Hinoki-feeling in the net. Some players write that hinoki is a hard wood, some others write, that it is really soft.

I have also tested different kinds of hinoki blades over the years.
- you will definitely get the purest hinoki feeling with a 1-ply like Darker Speed 90, but this is a really special thing: fast, stiff, soft.
- all-hinoki blades feel similar, but the more plies the blade has, the more it feels "normal" and loses the special hinoki feeling.
- a thick hinoki outer ply feels softer than a thin ply. For example the Nittaku Septear Carbon has a thin outer and feels hard.

Koto has a more direct, but also more bouncy feeling compared with limba. Especially backhand players like FZD or players with short arm-movement will like it. On the other side forehand-players (especially with a long arm movement) will prefer limba-inner-carbon-blades because the ball stays longer on the blade.

If I see it right, there are not much players who play with limba outer and the composite-layer directly under the top. Instead of this they mostly use the fibre over the core (inner-layer). In opposite of this those players who prefer koto as top ply mostly use the fibre directly under the koto top (outer layer).
Excellent post. More people should be hitting the like button on this.

 
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One more thing about hinoki: you will find different thoughts about the Hinoki-feeling in the net. Some players write that hinoki is a hard wood, some others write, that it is really soft.

I have also tested different kinds of hinoki blades over the years.
- you will definitely get the purest hinoki feeling with a 1-ply like Darker Speed 90, but this is a really special thing: fast, stiff, soft.
- all-hinoki blades feel similar, but the more plies the blade has, the more it feels "normal" and loses the special hinoki feeling.
- a thick hinoki outer ply feels softer than a thin ply. For example the Nittaku Septear Carbon has a thin outer and feels hard.

Koto has a more direct, but also more bouncy feeling compared with limba. Especially backhand players like FZD or players with short arm-movement will like it. On the other side forehand-players (especially with a long arm movement) will prefer limba-inner-carbon-blades because the ball stays longer on the blade.

If I see it right, there are not much players who play with limba outer and the composite-layer directly under the top. Instead of this they mostly use the fibre over the core (inner-layer). In opposite of this those players who prefer koto as top ply mostly use the fibre directly under the koto top (outer layer).

Hi, following the thread of the publication which kind of blade is better for a flat Hitting style player:

Limba (outer or inner), Hinoki, Ayous or Koto

 
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For glatt hitting Hinoki 1-ply or Koto outer with fiber directly under the Koto outer would be my choice

 
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Hi, following the thread of the publication which kind of blade is better for a flat Hitting style player:

Limba (outer or inner), Hinoki, Ayous or Koto

Hi, in this thread what's largely ignored is the material of the core. From my (I must admit) very little experience with this style, the best racket for flat hitting is thick balsa core with short pips. Whatever the outer plies there usually are. I guess it's balsa/carbon/hinoki.

 
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megimr1976, The spam filters are going crazy on your link in your signature and your link on your profile page. Can you explain them to me and any relevance to Table Tennis that they may have?
 
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Can anyone tell me these things?
Which one is stiffer or flexier? (That is how well the ball ‘sinks’ in to the blade.)
Which one is harder? (Just which one is harder, NOT the same as stiffness.)
Speed level of these wood types compared.
Control level of these wood types compared.
Spin/Ease to get spin level of these wood types.

And finally, which of these types would be best for SPINNY (not speedy) loop style.
You can write for example: An all limba blade etc, or like 2 hinoki plies, then ayous. Or something like that.

Highly appreciated!

Maybe this helps ?

https://www.sdcttblades.com/materials


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I plead to ITTF to ban all pips & anti to release & set free all of ITTF's political prisoners (choppers / defenders)

 
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