Looking for > Magic 77 on steroids

[James Z]

I am looking for chopping long pips rubbers that will work halfway decent in the 40+ plastic ball era.
Currently I am using a Chinese rubber called Magic 77 from China.
It seems to the only high aspect ratio super long pips rubber with halfway decent Looper Torture Index.
Even though this is the absolute best long pips I have EVER used, there are a few problems with this rubber for away from the table chopping regarding the ability to produce at least somewhat decent enough back spin for the 40+ plastic ball era (even though the back spin & looper torture index is still far far superior to any crappy useless long pips on the ITTF LARC)
Problem 1 :- The pip tops are not rough enough for maximizing backspin
Problem 2 :- The pips are not flexible enough for maximizing backspin
Problem 3:- The material of the pips does not seem to compatible enough to maximize backspin . the material should be somewhat like P1 Curl or many Dr,Neubauer rubbers
Problem 4 :- The pip distribution density (less than ITTF allowed max 30 pips / sq.cm) is utterly useless for the plastic ball era. The pip density must be close to the previous ITTF allowed max of max 50 pips / sq.cm to maximize backspin
Problem 5 :- The base of the top sheet (on which the pips sit on) seems to be too thick. It would be nice to have a thin base like with useless ITTF LARC pips like P1 Curl & few others.
I think High Aspect Ratio Super Long Pips are currently available from Indonesia & China. I could not find any others from China. (Avalox Mo & Globe Mo wang 3 are very good close to the table blocking type High Aspect Ratio Super Long Pips & I would highly recommend them but I am looking for Magic 77 on steroids for chopping that meets at least a few more of above 5 requirements so that I can at least barely survive in the 40+ plastic ball era) .
I am NOT looking for treated pips such as those made by soaking ITTF LARC pips in chemicals like kerosine. I also do not recommend these because the pips break in like 16 minutes.
If you know of any such rubbers from Indonesia please let me know. Or if you know of any manufacturer in China or Indonesia that is willing to make a test batch I am willing to buy.

BTW if you are wondering what qualifies as High Aspect Ratio Super Long Pips, below are minimum requirements

1. The Aspect Ratio(AR) must be at least 1.5 ( Current ITTF Max is 1.1 and before the 1998 Durban Aspect Ratio Reduction Massacre the max AR allowed by ITTF was 1.3)
2. The length of the pips must be at least 2.5 mm (Current ITTF max is 2 mm)
3. The pips distribution density must be much higher than the current ITTF max of 30 pips / sq.cm (preferably approach 50 pips per sq.cm which was the max allowed before the pre 2004 Pip Density Reduction Regulation reduced it to 30)

Meeting these 3 requiremenst would somewhat level at least a little bit the severely tilted playing field favoring illegally speed-glued or illegally boosted up loopers (who control the ITTF) though a fair & level playing field is still not realistic due to the 7 rule & regulation changes since 1983 by loopercontrolled ITTF aimed to partially or fully place various limiations on pips.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I plead to ITTF to ban all pips & anti to release & set free all of ITTF's political prisoners (choppers / defenders)

 

[James Z]

I apologize for moving your post to this thread because it applies more directly to your reply
I assume you can order from Ali Express in Germany ?

If yes, please check out following links as to where you can buy Magic 77

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000092615559.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.1.7ece3ef1j7Dh8C&algo_pvid=fc8575df-0c12-4674-a237-a455cde8afca&algo_exp_id=fc8575df-0c12-4674-a237-a455cde8afca-0&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2210000000244466993%22%7D&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21USD%2118.13%2116.14%21%21%21%21%21%40211be10916714899758883718d0779%2110000000244466993%21sea&curPageLogUid=Ct1xBcqoOyXB

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000092615559.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.1.7ece3ef1j7Dh8C&algo_pvid=fc8575df-0c12-4674-a237-a455cde8afca&algo_exp_id=fc8575df-0c12-4674-a237-a455cde8afca-0&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2210000000244466993%22%7D&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21USD%2118.13%2116.14%21%21%21%21%21%40211be10916714899758883718d0779%2110000000244466993%21sea&curPageLogUid=Ct1xBcqoOyXB

There is no need to be ashamed or embarassed about using them even in Official ITTF Tournaments inside Germany.
Hundreds of players use such rubbers in Official ITTF tournaments inside China , Korea & Indonesia.at least in low level events if not at high level events

I am not saying DTTB will respect your rights while they continue to allow speed glues & boosters (illegal under common law) but you can always ask.

Even if they do not allow in Official DTTB tournaments you can at least test them in local leagues or practices.

If they won't let you use it but will continue to allow use of speed glues & boosters (illegal under common law) then you will at least know who your REAL freiends are in tabletennis.

 

[Stuart Marquis]

I am looking for chopping long pips rubbers that will work halfway decent in the 40+ plastic ball era.
Currently I am using a Chinese rubber called Magic 77 from China.
It seems to the only high aspect ratio super long pips rubber with halfway decent Looper Torture Index.
Even though this is the absolute best long pips I have EVER used, there are a few problems with this rubber for away from the table chopping regarding the ability to produce at least somewhat decent enough back spin for the 40+ plastic ball era (even though the back spin & looper torture index is still far far superior to any crappy useless long pips on the ITTF LARC)
Problem 1 :- The pip tops are not rough enough for maximizing backspin
Problem 2 :- The pips are not flexible enough for maximizing backspin
Problem 3:- The material of the pips does not seem to compatible enough to maximize backspin . the material should be somewhat like P1 Curl or many Dr,Neubauer rubbers
Problem 4 :- The pip distribution density (less than ITTF allowed max 30 pips / sq.cm) is utterly useless for the plastic ball era. The pip density must be close to the previous ITTF allowed max of max 50 pips / sq.cm to maximize backspin
Problem 5 :- The base of the top sheet (on which the pips sit on) seems to be too thick. It would be nice to have a thin base like with useless ITTF LARC pips like P1 Curl & few others.
I think High Aspect Ratio Super Long Pips are currently available from Indonesia & China. I could not find any others from China. (Avalox Mo & Globe Mo wang 3 are very good close to the table blocking type High Aspect Ratio Super Long Pips & I would highly recommend them but I looking for Magic 77 on steroids for chopping that meets at least a few more of above 5 requirements so that I can at least barely survive in the 40+ plastic ball era) .
I am not looking for treated pips such as those made by soaking ITTF LARC pips in chemicals like kerosine. I also do not recommend these because the pips break in like 16 minutes.
If you know of any such rubbers from Indonesia please let me know. Of if you know of any manufacturer in China or Indonesia that is willing to make a test batch I am willing to buy.

BTW if you are wondering what qualifies as High Aspect Ratio Super Long Pips, below are minimum requirements

1. The Aspect Ratio(AR) must be at least 1.5 ( Current ITTF Max is 1.1 and before the 1998 Durban Aspect Ratio Reduction Massacre the max AR allowed by ITTF was 1.3)
2. The length of the pips must be at least 2.5 mm (Current ITTF max is 2 mm)
3. The pips distribution density must be much higher than the current ITTF max of 30 pips / sq.cm (preferably approach 50 pips per sq.cm which was the max allowed before the pre 2004 Pip Density Reduction Regulation reduced it to 30)

Meeting these 3 requiremenst would somewhat level at least a little bit the severely tilted playing field favoring illegally speed-glued or illegally boosted up loopers (who control the ITTF) though a fair & level playing field is still not realistic due to the 7 rule & regulation changes since 1983 by loopercontrolled ITTF aimed to partially or fully place various limiations on pips.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I plead to ITTF to ban all pips & anti to release & set free all of ITTF's political prisoners (choppers / defenders)

It's just a suggestion, but have you ever tried gluing a sheet of Magic 77 on-top of another sheet of Magic 77?? I mean, if you're just going to throw the rules on racket coverings out of the window then anything goes, right? 🤣

 

[LittleSeki]

I apologize for moving your post to this thread because it applies more directly to your reply
I assume you can order from Ali Express in Germany ?

If yes, please check out following links as to where you can buy Magic 77

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000092615559.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.1.7ece3ef1j7Dh8C&algo_pvid=fc8575df-0c12-4674-a237-a455cde8afca&algo_exp_id=fc8575df-0c12-4674-a237-a455cde8afca-0&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2210000000244466993%22%7D&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21USD%2118.13%2116.14%21%21%21%21%21%40211be10916714899758883718d0779%2110000000244466993%21sea&curPageLogUid=Ct1xBcqoOyXB

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000092615559.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.1.7ece3ef1j7Dh8C&algo_pvid=fc8575df-0c12-4674-a237-a455cde8afca&algo_exp_id=fc8575df-0c12-4674-a237-a455cde8afca-0&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2210000000244466993%22%7D&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21USD%2118.13%2116.14%21%21%21%21%21%40211be10916714899758883718d0779%2110000000244466993%21sea&curPageLogUid=Ct1xBcqoOyXB

There is no need to be ashamed or embarassed about using them even in Official ITTF Tournaments inside Germany.
Hundreds of players use such rubbers in Official ITTF tournaments inside China , Korea & Indonesia.at least in low level events if not at high level events

I am not saying DTTB will respect your rights while they continue to allow speed glues & boosters (illegal under common law) but you can always ask.

Even if they do not allow in Official DTTB tournaments you can at least test them in local leagues or practices.

If they won't let you use it but will continue to allow use of speed glues & boosters (illegal under common law) then you will at least know who your REAL freiends are in tabletennis.

It is still illegal to use.
So this rubber is no use at all.
There might be a reason why i dont have a ittf logo on it. It has nothing to do with being ashamed. There are rules and if you dont want to follow them, them dont play there. And dont try to play with equipment that is not allowed

That is just stupid

 

[James Z]

It is still illegal to use.

It is NOT "illegal" (like as in speed-glues & boosters).
It is just unapproved by ITTF
But as I pointed out, it is used at low level ITTF Tournamnets in China , Kora, Indonesia etc.
But you missed my whole point about doing at least just a conparison test to understand how much ITTF has robbed you

There are rules and if you dont want to follow them, them dont play there. And dont try to play with equipment that is not allowed
That is just stupid

.You may not to want to play with ITTF unapproved rubbers because you seriously belive that the booster supremacist controlled ITTF knows what is good for choppers, while the simnple fact remains that ITTF has passed 8 rules or regualtion that directlly or indirectly limit the capabilities of hoppers.
OK keep believing that ITTF (& DTTB) knows what is good or choppers & ITTF (& DTTB) loves choppers.

Again I also clearly pointed out , you do not need ITTF's permission to use Magic 77 in
1. Tournaments that are not ITTF sanctioned.
2. Leagues in your club
3. Play with your (so called) friends.

So don't tell me players are not ashamed to use these rubbers even in such situations because most choppers are terrified of social rejection like this.
As I said earlier, you will very quickly find out who your reel friends are in table tennis if you try to use these rubbers even in casual practice while these so called friends continue to use unhealthy speed-glues & boosters,even though ITTF says they are not only ITTF unapproved but are also illegal under common law..
It is perfectly OK if you do not want to use it but don't try to justify to me or others that it is right.

 

[LittleSeki]

Dont feed the trolls, i forgot.................................................................

 

[James Z]

It's just a suggestion, but have you ever tried gluing a sheet of Magic 77 on-top of another sheet of Magic 77?? I mean, if you're just going to throw the rules on racket coverings out of the window then anything goes, right? 🤣

I have answered this about 20 times so far but you either choose to ignore it or just trolling.by posting such inane nonsense
Your above nonsense is based on the sad assumption that the looper controlled ITTF knows what is good for the choppers but I have explained the following over & over > ITTF does not want choppers & so they would love to ban all pips & anti but they know all too well that this may cause pips / anti players to start their own assocation (just like when speed-glue supremacists threatened to do in 1995 and got the initial speed-glue ban repealed immediately) & of course ITTF does not want dilution of their TOTAL control & loss of revenue
So ITTF is doing the next best thing > Keep pips / anti under their control & pass rule (or egulation) change after rule change to severely limit the capabilities of pips / anti such as the 8 changes since 1983.

 

[Stuart Marquis]

I have answered this about 20 times so far but you either choose to ignore it or just trolling.by posting such inane nonsense
Your above nonsense is based on the sad assumption that the looper controlled ITTF knows what is good for the choppers but I have explained the following over & over > ITTF does not want choppers & so they would love to ban all pips & anti but they know all too well that this may cause pips / anti players to start their own assocation (just like when speed-glue supremacists threatened to do in 1995 and got the initial speed-glue ban repealed immediately) & of course ITTF does not want dilution of their TOTAL control & loss of revenue
So ITTF is doing the next best thing > Keep pips / anti under their control & pass rule (or egulation) change after rule change to severely limit the capabilities of pips / anti such as the 8 changes since 1983.

I’m not claiming the ITTF knows what’s best for choppers. I’m claiming that the ITTF makes the rules. And those rules are the rules, regardless of whether they are well intended or not. It is a fact that it is against the rules to use an unauthorised racket covering. That’s not necessarily me giving an endorsement to the rule that has resulted in Magic 77 being unauthorised, it’s just me acknowledging the fact that such a rule exists.

 

[James Z]

I’m not claiming the ITTF knows what’s best for choppers. I’m claiming that the ITTF makes the rules. And those rules are the rules, regardless of whether they are well intended or not. It is a fact that it is against the rules to use an unauthorised racket covering. That’s not necessarily me giving an endorsement to the rule that has resulted in Magic 77 being unauthorised, it’s just me acknowledging the fact that such a rule exists.

Thanks for conveniently ignoring the simple facts as usual & going in circles
1. ITTF is not the sole supreme authority on table tennis & I do not need permission from ITTF to be able to recommend that ITTF unauthorized rubbers be used with proper prior approval by ITTF Afiliates in their events (such as US Open 2022) . In fact I could even recommend that they use them in ITTF events without ITTF permission & there is nothing illegal about it (unlike posters here recommending potentially criminal boosters)
2. ITTF makes the rules but there is no obligation for any ITTF affiliates to follow those rules. Simply because affiliates usually do in noway implies that they always will do in the future or did not deviate from them in the past. As i pointed out recently (which you chose to ignore) Marty Reisman's blue racket is a prime example from the past & I am sure there are literally 100s of examples of similar deviations with 227 or so national affiliates & local affiliates of these national affilaites

 

[Stuart Marquis]

Thanks for conveniently ignoring the simple facts as usual & going in circles
1. ITTF is not the sole supreme authority on table tennis & I do not need permission from ITTF to be able to recommend that ITTF unauthorized rubbers be used with proper prior approval by ITTF Afiliates in their events (such as US Open 2022) . In fact I could even recommend that they use them in ITTF events without ITTF permission & there is nothing illegal about it (unlike posters here recommending potentially criminal boosters)
2. ITTF makes the rules but there is no obligation for any ITTF affiliates to follow those rules. Simply because affiliates usually do in noway implies that they always will do in the future or did not deviate from them in the past. As i pointed out recently (which you chose to ignore) Marty Reisman's blue racket is a prime example from the past & I am sure there are literally 100s of examples of similar deviations with 227 or so national affiliates & local affiliates of these national affilaites

You are twisting my words. I’m not saying that you need approval from ITTF to recommend unauthorised rubbers. What I’m saying is that you should be letting people know that a rubber is not authorised by ITTF when you are recommending it to them, so that they can make a fully informed decision about whether they want to use it. If every time you recommend an unauthorised rubber you make it clear that the rubber is unauthorised, and that the player would need special permission to use it in a regulated environment, then I have no problem with you recommending unauthorised rubbers.

 

[James Z]

You are twisting my words. I’m not saying that you need approval from ITTF to recommend unauthorised rubbers. What I’m saying is that you should be letting people know that a rubber is not authorised by ITTF when you are recommending it to them, so that they can make a fully informed decision about whether they want to use it. If every time you recommend an unauthorised rubber you make it clear that the rubber is unauthorised, and that the player would need special permission to use it in a regulated environment, then I have no problem with you recommending unauthorised rubbers.

But your insistence that I should forewarn is based on your ridiculous assumption that ITTF is the sole supreme authority on tabletennis.
Again i would be happy to do so to please you if all posters here forewarn others that speed-gluing & boosting is ITTF unapproved

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

One thing that is most interesting to me.

I like table tennis. I like to play. Obviously, at some point I was obsessed with the sport and liked to talk about it too. For me, that has worn off. I read and watch what is going on in the forum for the purpose of overseeing things. But, I probably wouldn’t if I was not a moderator.

JZ has been playing for a very long time. He obviously knows the sport better than most. I also am pretty confident that he is a higher level player than at least 80% of forum members and this is very likely an overly conservative estimate.

So, what is so interesting to me is not that JZ is so interested in TT or in engaging in debate with people who, in comparison are relatively new to the game, but that, after 30 years, 40 years…..maybe even longer, he is still interested in having these discussions with people who often remember back as far as the rivalry between Ma Long and Fan Zhendong whose main concerns are what sponge hardness for H3 that they should use and whether to use the FZD SZLC or the ZJK SZLC blade.

It is just interesting to see someone so interested in convincing people who probably just don’t even understand the historical background, about stuff they have mostly never even had experience with. To me, that is fascinating.

I do really think you have a good point about many issues that you repeatedly bring up. But it seems so out of place like you are talking about accounting to someone who has been having a conversation about watering plants.

 

[Stuart Marquis]

But your insistence that I should forewarn is based on your ridiculous assumption that ITTF is the sole supreme authority on tabletennis.
Again i would be happy to do so to please you if all posters here forewarn others that speed-gluing & boosting is ITTF unapproved

How is a player supposed to know that they might need “proper prior approval” if you do not let them know that the rubber you’re recommending isn’t ITTF authorised to begin with? I accept that the ITTF isn’t the sole authority in global table tennis, but clearly they are the largest and most influential. To pretend otherwise just to validate your withholding of the fact that a rubber is not approved by ITTF is mischievous, to say the least. Also, why is the notion of being open about the fact that a rubber is not authorised conditional on other people being similarly open about the use of speed-glue and boosting? These are two separate issues, why are you trying to conflate them in this way? If someone does a foul serve in a game, then the appropriate response is to call them out on the foul serve…the appropriate response isn’t to break an entirely different rule and then claim that you’re going to keep breaking that rule until they stop breaking the rule on serving.

 

[James Z]

How is a player supposed to know that they might need “proper prior approval” if you do not let them know that the rubber you’re recommending isn’t ITTF authorised to begin with? I accept that the ITTF isn’t the sole authority in global table tennis, but clearly they are the largest and most influential. To pretend otherwise just to validate your withholding of the fact that a rubber is not approved by ITTF is mischievous, to say the least. Also, why is the notion of being open about the fact that a rubber is not authorised conditional on other people being similarly open about the use of speed-glue and boosting? These are two separate issues, why are you trying to conflate them in this way? If someone does a foul serve in a game, then the appropriate response is to call them out on the foul serve…the appropriate response isn’t to break an entirely different rule and then claim that you’re going to keep breaking that rule until they stop breaking the rule on serving.

Ok keep dreaming & keep trolling

 

[Stuart Marquis]

Ok keep dreaming & keep trolling

Trolling a troll is not trolling; it’s troll hunting! 😉

 

[Stuart Marquis]

Meeting these 3 requiremenst would somewhat level at least a little bit the severely tilted playing field favoring illegally speed-glued or illegally boosted up loopers (who control the ITTF) though a fair & level playing field is still not realistic due to the 7 rule & regulation changes since 1983 by loopercontrolled ITTF aimed to partially or fully place various limiations on pips.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I plead to ITTF to ban all pips & anti to release & set free all of ITTF's political prisoners (choppers / defenders)

Do you really still think that speed-gluing is an on-going issue in Table Tennis? I have never seen anyone speed-gluing up a bat at a tournament before a match, certainly not since this was made illegal under ITTF rules. In the UK at least, I would say that the use of speed-glue is practically non-existent. You persistently lump speed-glue and boosters together whenever you bring them up, but for all practical purposes it is only boosters that continue to be used in the sport (as a substitute for speed-glue). Boosting is against the rules - and on that basis I am opposed to it - but boosting is not the same thing as speed-gluing…and in my opinion it is not helpful for you to constantly refer to “speed-glue and boosting” as if both are still a persistent problem in the sport.

 

[Stuart Marquis]

One thing that is most interesting to me.

I like table tennis. I like to play. Obviously, at some point I was obsessed with the sport and liked to talk about it too. For me, that has worn off. I read and watch what is going on in the forum for the purpose of overseeing things. But, I probably wouldn’t if I was not a moderator.

JZ has been playing for a very long time. He obviously knows the sport better than most. I also am pretty confident that he is a higher level player than at least 80% of forum members and this is very likely an overly conservative estimate.

So, what is so interesting to me is not that JZ is so interested in TT or in engaging in debate with people who, in comparison are relatively new to the game, but that, after 30 years, 40 years…..maybe even longer, he is still interested in having these discussions with people who often remember back as far as the rivalry between Ma Long and Fan Zhendong whose main concerns are what sponge hardness for H3 that they should use and whether to use the FZD SZLC or the ZJK SZLC blade.

It is just interesting to see someone so interested in convincing people who probably just don’t even understand the historical background, about stuff they have mostly never even had experience with. To me, that is fascinating.

I do really think you have a good point about many issues that you repeatedly bring up. But it seems so out of place like you are talking about accounting to someone who has been having a conversation about watering plants.

On what basis are you confident that he is a higher level player, and better than at least 80% of other forum members? How are you able to assess playing ability simply from forum posts? Knowing about the history and politics of the sport doesn’t necessarily make you a good player…or perhaps you know this because you know the real-world identity of James Z? 🤔

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

On what basis are you confident that he is a higher level player, and better than at least 80% of other forum members? How are you able to assess playing ability simply from forum posts? Knowing about the history and politics of the sport doesn’t necessarily make you a good player…or perhaps you know this because you know the real-world identity of James Z? 🤔

Oh, it is not from forum posts. I know who he is. I remember looking at his rating and tournament experience a long time ago. I believe he stopped playing in sanctioned tournaments in 1998 (yep, notice, that is a year he mentions frequently).

He has also run table tennis clubs. I am not just guessing. And it has nothing to do with posts he makes.

If I was just commenting based on posts he makes, what I would say was, he is a bit immature, he likes getting people riled up, and he likes to get people angry and upset. He has been saying most of the stuff he posts for decades. What I am most interested in is that there are people who actually try to converse or debate with him when he is playing a very different game than a normal exchange of ideas.

He may not be as good now as he was in 1998. But he also may be even better now than he was back then. Certainly he has an extra quarter of a century of experience since his last sanctioned tournament. And again, my guess is 80% is a conservative number.

I guess, one more thing, if JZ wanted to let you know who he is, he could.

 

[Stuart Marquis]

Oh, it is not from forum posts. I know who he is. I remember looking at his rating and tournament experience a long time ago. I believe he stopped playing in sanctioned tournaments in 1998 (yep, notice, that is a year he mentions frequently).

He has also run table tennis clubs. I am not just guessing. And it has nothing to do with posts he makes.

He may not be as good now as he was in 1998. But he also may be even better now than he was back then. Certainly he has an extra quarter of a century of experience since his last sanctioned tournament. And again, my guess is 80% is a conservative number.

That’s interesting that you know who he is, as I remember in one of my exchanges with him that he wanted to keep his real identity secret…and in part that was linked to why he posts under several different usernames. I wonder if he knows that you know who he is? Perhaps we’ll find out if he contributes again to this thread!

 

[Stuart Marquis]

If I was just commenting based on posts he makes, what I would say was, he is a bit immature, he likes getting people riled up, and he likes to get people angry and upset. He has been saying most of the stuff he posts for decades. What I am most interested in is that there are people who actually try to converse or debate with him when he is playing a very different game than a normal exchange of ideas.

I can’t speak for others, but I enjoy the debate for the sake of the debate. And for me, when dealing with someone like James Z, the main purpose isn’t really to try and get him to back down or change his mind on a certain issue. What I’m really doing (with the help of James Z) is creating a dialogue around an issue that can be read and judged by other forum members. Useful info can come out of such dialogue, even when one party is not approaching things in a mature and reasonable way. And as always, it’s the audience that decides the “winner” of a debate, not the direct participants.