Ma Long's backhand.

[Gozo Aruna]

Yes, you see it correctly, I am starting a thread to talk about Ma Long's backhand. His FH is done to death, so no, I am not gonna talk about his FH.

My question being why Ma Long does what he does with his backhand?

Here are my guesses. Feel free to contradict me or add your own observation to it.

1. He throws or flail his non playing hand outwards in an expansive way.
2. I tried this and found that it creates more stable form.
3. I speculate perhaps he uses a non-tensor rubber for his BH, that is, H37, and that is why he needs to expand his both arms outward so much to make the ball go.
4. This flailing of arms is actually pretty comfortable and stable and makes it so much easier to transition to his FH; his main weapon.
5. we all know his main weapon is his FH and his BH is mainly as a support role, that is, not used as a point grabbing stroke.
6. Point Nos. 4 is the main advantage I see with Ma Long's BH style.
7. Try it, you will know for yourself.

 

[Leno]

In my opinion extending the non-playing hand forward stablelizes your shoulder.

We sometimes overrotate the playing hand with our wind up motion (due to fast balls, spin or angle).
By having the other shoulder rigid, you can stablelize your form and compress the power due to opposite forces (like a spring).

Same with transitioning FH and BH. You are using both shoulder to transition instead of one.
The extended arm helps to keep your upper body and shoulder more in place.

 

[Amayzde]

I would say the most special thing about Ma Longs backhand is his use of the right hip, instead of the left hip.

Traditionally when transferring weight on your backhand you transfer it from your left leg to your right leg. But Ma long transfers is from his right leg his left, like a boxing punch. He practiced boxing to get a feel for this.

This didn’t necessarily make his backhand more powerful. But it did make him more comfortable in those backhand to backhand rallies close to the table together with better transitioning from backhand to forehand and vice versa. Because both strokes now are initiated with the same hip movement.

You can see the difference here in 2011:

And here in 2016:

 

[Sims]

I would say the most special thing about Ma Longs backhand is his use of the right hip, instead of the left hip.

Traditionally when transferring weight on your backhand you transfer it from your left leg to your right leg. But Ma long transfers is from his right leg his left, like a boxing punch. He practiced boxing to get a feel for this.

This didn’t necessarily make his backhand more powerful. But it did make him more comfortable in those backhand to backhand rallies close to the table together with better transitioning from backhand to forehand and vice versa. Because both strokes now are initiated with the same hip movement.

You can see the difference here in 2011:

And here in 2016:

Looking at shots in the first video in some cases it shows his left foot moving back and his right hip moving fwd. I can't see that this is a transfer of weight to the left leg.

In the second video also you can see his left foot come up, away from the floor as his right hip moves fwd, this also (to me anyway) indicates a transfer of weight to his right foot.

Am I really seeing this incorrectly?

 

[Attitude]

The only thing i would put into question is the difference between mls bh and others in terms of strenght.

As you can see in many training videos of ml like this one:

Is that mls bh isnt weaker than fzd bh per se.

Imo their technique overall differs in several other departments that ml usually steps around to hit with his fh than others.

For example fzd has an overall more horizontal position to the table mid rallye than ml. Even if it comes to a fh stroke fzd usually doesnt bend himself fh that much. His strokes usually end the moment his right shoulder gets to the horizontal position.

Ml on the other throws himself way more into the ball.
In matches i would assume a tremendous difference in terms of speed, spin and arc between his bh and fh shots.


Some years ago i made the equipment responsible for his more controlled bh approach. But now when i see wcq hitting with his bh like fzd/lin shidong im quite sure that he most certainly has other reasons^^

But having a "weaker" bh is most certainly not one of the reason

 

[Leno]

His BH is such a strong setup game. Even though you knew it back in the day, you couldn't handle it. The means to an end was just artistic.

Traditionally when transferring weight on your backhand you transfer it from your left leg to your right leg. But Ma long transfers is from his right leg his left, like a boxing punch. He practiced boxing to get a feel for this.

If you put it into boxing terms like the post earlier, you can say that his BH was the jab until he hit you with the big gun his FH. (same as Gozo point 5.)

I revisited a few of 2015 & 2016 games and sadly, his BH back than was way peppier and sharper than these day.

Honestly I'm still way more intrigued by how he stops himself from overextending with his form. If you watch him play you realize he does every move minimalistic. While on the other hand other players you can clearly see if they put the power in the wrist or arm if they want to perform a certain shot. If there was a variantion in shots with the same form it would have been so banger.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Tomorrow is my next practice session & I am going to try it again and see how it feels to play ML's BH style. I had a good session with some lower skill players on Sunday, I will try again against some higher level player tomorrow and see how it goes. Stay tuned.

What I really like or what this impresses me at first is how comfortable the stroke is and how comfortable and stable is when transitioning from BH to FH. The non-playing hand is up and in-front prevents one from over rotating the torso as well as preventing the over doing the backswing which will mess with the timing against fast return ball.

 

[Amayzde]

Looking at shots in the first video in some cases it shows his left foot moving back and his right hip moving fwd. I can't see that this is a transfer of weight to the left leg.

In the second video also you can see his left foot come up, away from the floor as his right hip moves fwd, this also (to me anyway) indicates a transfer of weight to his right foot.

Am I really seeing this incorrectly?

Yes its hard to spot the difference only looking at the body movement. But whats more obvious is that in the first video from 2011 the starting point of his stroke is more thowards his left hip. This means his strength mainly comes from the left leg.

And in the second video from 2016 his starting point is more thowards his right hip.

 

[ejprinz]

Ti Long discussed this in his YT video. Fang Bo has the "opposite" backhand move (supposedly the one Ma Long used in the 2010's). For me Ma Long's move works better because the hip has a similar movement for FH and BH so I don't have to guess correctly what stroke to do. Also starting open works better for me than closed. I think the most useful tutorial was the PechPong one, although I'll stay with Ma Long's move for the hip. Knowing how chip tech works, I am fascinated that I can watch all the greats in great detail, lots of things have to function for this to work.

 

[Giangt]

There are a lot of video analysis of ML's BH by pingpangwang, from when he transitioned to his new technique. Here are a couple of videos. If you want to search for more videos try to go 6 years back.

 

[Giangt]

 

[SleepyMaster]

Do we trying to critique Ma Long backhand? His backhand is better than 99,3393% of players that are paying this sport so there is a lot to learn for us from him. How he using his hips and why? at what point he is playing a ball and how? were he placed it? etc.. Obviously his backhand has evolved from his early days till tomorrow.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Do we trying to critique Ma Long backhand? His backhand is better than 99,3393% of players that are paying this sport so there is a lot to learn for us from him. How he using his hips and why? at what point he is playing a ball and how? were he placed it? etc.. Obviously his backhand has evolved from his early days till tomorrow.

You say we critique ML's BH? In all the post above, the way I understand it is, all the responders have nothing negative to say w.r.t. ML's BH, instead we are all admirer of ML's BH. So far, all of us ML's BH. Maybe I misunderstand your post?

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Ti Long discussed this in his YT video. Fang Bo has the "opposite" backhand move (supposedly the one Ma Long used in the 2010's). For me Ma Long's move works better because the hip has a similar movement for FH and BH so I don't have to guess correctly what stroke to do. Also starting open works better for me than closed. I think the most useful tutorial was the PechPong one, although I'll stay with Ma Long's move for the hip. Knowing how chip tech works, I am fascinated that I can watch all the greats in great detail, lots of things have to function for this to work.

Yes! Yes! Yes! The Ti Long's video is the one where Ti Long showed the BH from a Martial Art Perspective. Once I glanced through this video and totally forgotten about it.

 

[NextLevel]

Yes its hard to spot the difference only looking at the body movement. But whats more obvious is that in the first video from 2011 the starting point of his stroke is more thowards his left hip. This means his strength mainly comes from the left leg.

And in the second video from 2016 his starting point is more thowards his right hip.

You are not the first person I know to bring up something like this. One person I know who argued the same thing says it comes from how the penhold backhand is played. Another said it is just another way of using the body to power the backhand. Of course in the search for technique that is personal and usable, I wish those who look at Ma Long for technical inspiration good luck.

 

[SleepyMaster]

You say we critique ML's BH? In all the post above, the way I understand it is, all the responders have nothing negative to say w.r.t. ML's BH, instead we are all admirer of ML's BH. So far, all of us ML's BH. Maybe I misunderstand your post?

Ah, cool than. Because many people talking about how week his backhand and forgetting or just simply ignoring that he evolved from old school forehand oriented player to real treat and n1 to all modern generation of backhand oriented players. I was just scrolling before sleep maybe I was misunderstood something, sorry 😋

 

[dingyibvs]

I would say the most special thing about Ma Longs backhand is his use of the right hip, instead of the left hip.

Traditionally when transferring weight on your backhand you transfer it from your left leg to your right leg. But Ma long transfers is from his right leg his left, like a boxing punch. He practiced boxing to get a feel for this.

This didn’t necessarily make his backhand more powerful. But it did make him more comfortable in those backhand to backhand rallies close to the table together with better transitioning from backhand to forehand and vice versa. Because both strokes now are initiated with the same hip movement.

You can see the difference here in 2011:

And here in 2016:

No, for the BH there isn't left to right weight transfer for the vast majority of the time. QSB's teaching videos also mentioned that. The weight stays on the right foot. That BH stroke is a more purely rotational stroke compared to the FH, and when you're rotating around one point the center of gravity doesn't shift significantly.

 

[Sims]

You are not the first person I know to bring up something like this. One person I know who argued the same thing says it comes from how the penhold backhand is played. Another said it is just another way of using the body to power the backhand. Of course in the search for technique that is personal and usable, I wish those who look at Ma Long for technical inspiration good luck.

Indeed! 😂
That is one backhand that I cannot imagine myself ever trying to imitate. I can't even read it properly when watching it in slow motion!
Watching again I don't know what to think as regards Amayzdes reading of it cos my eyes keep seeing something else....
Nope, I'll just keep plodding on in my attempts to relearn my BH (and unlearn old bad habits) which is going pretty ok. Not there yet but consistency is definitely up, especially in looping V backspin but that's another thing.

What I admire about Ma Longs BH is the control. He almost never hits outright winners with it but of course he is not trying to. It always seems so controlled.

I dunno what other people's take on it is but especially his WC final game V Lin Gaoyuan where at 0-3 he switched tactics, mixed in more BH serves and stopped trying to hit through LGY and instead played counter, slowing things down, moving him around and his BH played a huge part (bigger than usual I thought) in winning him the match.

 

[_ak]

Imagine if Ma Long were a chopper (9:37)

 

[Amayzde]

No, for the BH there isn't left to right weight transfer for the vast majority of the time. QSB's teaching videos also mentioned that. The weight stays on the right foot. That BH stroke is a more purely rotational stroke compared to the FH, and when you're rotating around one point the center of gravity doesn't shift significantly.

You are right, not significantly. But the center of gravity still does shift. Try hitting a proper backhand away from the table without using your left foot pressing on the ground. You will lack strength.