More power/speed from LIGHTER or HEAVIER blade?

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ON a power shot vs an incoming topspin, a solid, heavy blade with the right technique will produce MASSIVE power...

OTH... a LIGHT blade (think blade face is light and overall weight is 80-82 grams... such a blade with the right whip will QUICKLY produce blade speed in a Blink on over the table shots and make such shots easier than overall heavy solid blades.
 
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It depends on what you can handle. If you can handle a heavy weight blade without losing speed in your stroke or getting a sore arm, then this is faster and more solid. I tried this by using a 105 grams blade, it works very well for me. Thicker blades are faster in general, but it also depends on the stifness and type of wood. you have thick blades that are slow and thin blades that are fast. The Primorac Carbon and Schlager Carbon are the same blades but the Schlager has a thicker inner core. The Schlager is therefore faster
 
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says Spin and more spin.
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I think some variables are missing from the question and from the analysis.

A specific Stiga Clipper may be thicker and heavier than a specific Viscaria and that Viscaria might still be faster than the Clipper in question.

If you take different compositions judging things like speed and spin based on weight, is a bit misguided.

However, if you take two blades of the same kind, like, two Viscarias, the heavier one will usually be a little faster.

Something that makes a blade faster usually makes it take more technique to generate the same spin. But in skilled hands, if the blade bites more, you can generate more spin. So, with technique, a little extra weight can help you generate the spin.

Same construction, but thicker. If you took a Viscaria and made the core ply thicker, it would be stiffer and it would be, in general, faster. Why am I qualifying that statement? Well, the regular version at 90 grams would probably still be faster than the thicker version at, say, 80 grams. But a 90 gram regular version and a 90 gram thicker version, the thicker version would likely be a touch faster. And the thicker version would be more likely to be heavier than the thinner version.

But since wood is wood, you would still have a range of weights.
 
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Old memories. This topic was once the origin of the greatest flame war in the history of table tennis forums, featuring the infamous PNachtway and one or two other people vs about everyone else. If I remember correctly, it started at MyTT, eventually spread to OOAK forum. Now PN was one strange dude, who managed to get banned from every English language TT forum on the planet including this one. However, he is also a physicist and mechanical engineer and dynamical modeling of complex systems is how he makes a very good living. And weird as he is, perhaps the phrase idiot savant fits, about mechanics and classical physics he knows his stuff profoundly, and presented proof that what matters is the racket speed and its coefficient of restitution, and that does not necessarily correlate with blade weight. I have absolutely no doubt that he is right on this. But, this guy also would say that is all there is to it, as if the blade can play the sport by itself.

Hence flame wars. Because 100% of players, including pros, will tell you that heavier blades FEEL faster and probably play faster. Nobody who has been in the sport for long can deny this. Obviously the mechanics of the racket-ball interaction is not all there is to it, a point he would deny vigorously.

I strongly suspect that a key aspect is that we need to consider the combination of the blade and the player -- blades don't play by themselves -- and the player consists of complex neural sensory systems, neural motor systems, and a set of muscles of different sizes and contractile strengths. If you use a heavier blade you use a slightly set of muscles and what neurophysiologists call motor units. And through some combination of factors, the heavier blade -- assuming it is not too heavy -- allows you to play stronger shots with a sensation of less effort. If the blade is too heavy you are forced to use much larger motor units and so you lose all fine control. But there is a optimum.

In other words, I think this is largely a physiological phenomenon but a very real one. And I believe that heavier blades do play faster for most people. Now I might be wrong too. We all see things through our own lenses, and I am a physiologist. I am also a player who has had experience with a lot of blades and I KNOW that heavier blades feel faster and this requires an explanation. And that is the only one I can come up with.
 
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says Spin and more spin.
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Old memories. This topic was once the origin of the greatest flame war in the history of table tennis forums, featuring the infamous PNachtway and one or two other people vs about everyone else. If I remember correctly, it started at MyTT, eventually spread to OOAK forum. Now PN was one strange dude, who managed to get banned from every English language TT forum on the planet including this one. However, he is also a physicist and mechanical engineer and dynamical modeling of complex systems is how he makes a very good living. And weird as he is, perhaps the phrase idiot savant fits, about mechanics and classical physics he knows his stuff profoundly, and presented proof that what matters is the racket speed and its coefficient of restitution, and that does not necessarily correlate with blade weight. I have absolutely no doubt that he is right on this. But, this guy also would say that is all there is to it, as if the blade can play the sport by itself.

Hence flame wars. Because 100% of players, including pros, will tell you that heavier blades FEEL faster and probably play faster. Nobody who has been in the sport for long can deny this. Obviously the mechanics of the racket-ball interaction is not all there is to it, a point he would deny vigorously.

I strongly suspect that a key aspect is that we need to consider the combination of the blade and the player -- blades don't play by themselves -- and the player consists of complex neural sensory systems, neural motor systems, and a set of muscles of different sizes and contractile strengths. If you use a heavier blade you use a slightly set of muscles and what neurophysiologists call motor units. And through some combination of factors, the heavier blade -- assuming it is not too heavy -- allows you to play stronger shots with a sensation of less effort. If the blade is too heavy you are forced to use much larger motor units and so you lose all fine control. But there is a optimum.

In other words, I think this is largely a physiological phenomenon but a very real one. And I believe that heavier blades do play faster for most people. Now I might be wrong too. We all see things through our own lenses, and I am a physiologist. I am also a player who has had experience with a lot of blades and I KNOW that heavier blades feel faster and this requires an explanation. And that is the only one I can come up with.

This is a great post.
 
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I think some variables are missing from the question and from the analysis.

A specific Stiga Clipper may be thicker and heavier than a specific Viscaria and that Viscaria might still be faster than the Clipper in question.

Why, of course. The statement that it is the heavier blade that packs the punch was made under the ceteris paribus condition. If you have two Viscarias, one 80g and one 90g, the 90g one can be expected to yield the larger e, m being greater, under the assumption that v is not significantly affected by the larger m (but we should pay attention to Baal's post here). Basic physics indeed.

Unless (wood being wood) strange anomalies occur, like an unusually heavy but soft slab of Kiri in the core of the heavier Viscaria.
 
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Einstein formula doesn't apply here, folks. Instead, Newton is better. I am thinking about the result when a player hit the ball, btw.

Momentum is what we need to use here which is mv. M is the mass of the whole blade/arm/body/waist in contact with the coming ball. It is not just the blade itself! V is the speed of the blade at the moment it is in contact with the incoming ball.

Unless you throw the blade at the ball without holding it, then the blade mass is insignificant.

Back to the OP, "more power/speed with heavier blade?" , I think there is a point where the blade mass will be most significant (not necessarily powerful or fastest) with an individual. One will need to experiment different blades/structures (mass, combinations of wood types, # of plies, carbon, arlylate, other materials, etc.) to find this optimum point which could last a life time of an individual. Also, combination of different types of rubbers in the equation will make the answer impossible to answer.

So your experience may not apply to me or someone else. My 2 cents!
 
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The speed of blades is not a simple mass/velocity thing. It's not linear.

Regardless of mass and velocity, every blade has a different speed for different levels of shot power because of its layered design.

A blade with carbon layers right under the thin top ply will engage the carbon more fully at lower effort hits. If the carbon is buried deeper then more effort will be required to engage it.

If the outer ply is a harder one (say, koto wood), it will take greater effort to engage the layers under it.

Hell, some blades will react differently at different angles due to the orientation of wood/carbon layers. Carbonado is a good example.

Etc.

It's the same as rubbers. Some are faster at lower effort but top out more easily, some require more effort but are very hard to top out, and so on.
 
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Well .. Newton is always right. It is perfect for such simple analogy/analysis when there are 2 masses in coming contact. E= Mc^2 is for quantum physics which doesn't have anything to do with a blade contacting a ball (c is speed of light , anyway). I guess someone was joking when he mentioned it here.

Reread my post you will see that there are more things to contribute to the feel of a blade and how an individual can use them to reach his/her optimum point.
 
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Einstein formula doesn't apply here, folks. Instead, Newton is better. I am thinking about the result when a player hit the ball, btw.

Momentum is what we need to use here which is mv. M is the mass of the whole blade/arm/body/waist in contact with the coming ball. It is not just the blade itself! V is the speed of the blade at the moment it is in contact with the incoming ball.

Unless you throw the blade at the ball without holding it, then the blade mass is insignificant.

Back to the OP, "more power/speed with heavier blade?" , I think there is a point where the blade mass will be most significant (not necessarily powerful or fastest) with an individual. One will need to experiment different blades/structures (mass, combinations of wood types, # of plies, carbon, arlylate, other materials, etc.) to find this optimum point which could last a life time of an individual. Also, combination of different types of rubbers in the equation will make the answer impossible to answer.

So your experience may not apply to me or someone else. My 2 cents!

+1 just for keeping E=mc^2 crowd in check. :)
 
Great post #8 by Baal.
And I agree with Carls' statement that some variables are missing too.

In this thread I've discussed the blade and muscle strength nonlinearity:
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...ow-down-a-blade-or-speed-up-the-rubbers/page3

So I think that it would be good to take in consideration some other factors as:
1. Does the encrease of weight affect the flex. If so, the blade may feel slower with slower hits, harder spinned hits may not feel faster due to diminished spin capabilities, flatter smashes may feel faster.
2. Deppending on the specific blade structure and the nonlinearity mentioned above, different blades will need different increase of weight to produce noticeble change of speed and that will be different for different people.
3. Style - hitters may feel more benefit from the extra weight than spinners.
4. Distance - mid and longer distance players may feel better and safier with the extra weight, closer distance and over the table may be disturbed.
 
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Some people are to serious. I was making fun. Im sure, Mr. Einstein would totally agree beeing used for joking, he is possible feeling sick beeing quoted so often.

i always felt the most comfortable with blades between 92-96g, they are giving me better feel. What is below 90g just Fels wrong for me. Baal put it into words beautifully
 
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I personally play better and hit faster shots with a lighter blade. Where a heavier blade helps for me is actually in blocking and decelerating the ball. I also think that there is a feeling of solidity and dwell that comes from using a heavier blade. But my swing speed and ball quality in matches is higher with a lighter blade. Just my experience.
 
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Ball quality is higher or more consistently higher?

I personally play better and hit faster shots with a lighter blade. Where a heavier blade helps for me is actually in blocking and decelerating the ball. I also think that there is a feeling of solidity and dwell that comes from using a heavier blade. But my swing speed and ball quality in matches is higher with a lighter blade. Just my experience.

Ball quality is higher or more consistently higher?
Just asking, as consistently higher with the lighter blade is my experience. For example, during a simple FH to FH knockup, the heavier bat (say 192-198g) composition gives off the bigger, faster, more satisfying strokes. But for winning matches, the lighter bat (say 180-188g) allows more consistently better and a wider range strokes.
 
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I personally play better and hit faster shots with a lighter blade. Where a heavier blade helps for me is actually in blocking and decelerating the ball. I also think that there is a feeling of solidity and dwell that comes from using a heavier blade. But my swing speed and ball quality in matches is higher with a lighter blade. Just my experience.

IMHO, it's because your body/arm is more relaxed/less tense during the swing with the lighter blade.
 
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