Opinions regarding flexible/stiff - hard/soft blades for a beginner

[doppelganger_LT]

Hi, I’m looking for opinions regarding flexible/stiff - hard/soft blades for learning techniques. I’m a newbie, hungry for information about the equipment and techniques. I’ve been playing (actually, more training than playing) for about 4 months now. In these 4 months I tried 4 blades – first, a very soft blade Donic New Impuls 6.5. With Xiom Intro it feels like soft mushy cardboard, hated it, so I upgraded to New Impuls 7 (pine/kiri). It is noticeably harder, but still feels rather muddy. The I tried Stiga Allround Nostalgic (wenge outer ply), it feels like hitting the ball with a sheet of thin ice or a piece of tinplate, but I love it Then I have a Nittaku Violin, which feels like something in-between, but I hate the handle, which supposed to be flared but is more like a straight one.
I’ve read multiple posts on how using a carbon blade can hinder learning of proper techniques, how the beginners should use flexible blades with more dwell, etc. So my question is – in your opinion, for further learning should I use the Stiga Nostalgic ALL with a hard outer ply (which I like) or should I switch back to a soft blade (which I hate). Of course there is a third option to use any equipment I like to play with and not to give a toss about nobody’s opinions But it would be very interesting to hear some opinions. And I'm still curious how a carbon balde would feel like
Usually when something similar is posted, there are requests to post a video, so here’s my last video of a training session in forehand topspin. Please don’t kick my ass too hard and consider that I started my TT journey in November 2019, learning from Table Tennis Daily Academy subscription videos (and free Youtube videos, of course), and I’m 48 years old so my knees don’t like proper weight transfers and staying low... but I’m improving, my videos from two months ago look horrible
https://youtu.be/aAUwIZH41YI

 

[WingTT]

If you like the Stiga Nostalgic ALL, then stick with it. Important thing is that it gives you the feel to learn and execute all the strokes you need in a game. You can also use grip tape on the Violin to customize the grip to your liking. If you are curious about carbon blades, join a TT club, get to know people and ask to try their carbon blades. I've "downgraded" from carbon blades to a Yasaka Sweden Extra and I've probably gained more than I lost. If you afford it, getting a good (and I mean good) coach will be a great shortcut to improving.

 

[Kuba Hajto]

Use whatever blade you like. Wil changing equipment often hinder your learning? I think yes. Should you use different gear than one you are using know if you don't like current setup and you have the money to change it? Go for it! Would that money be technically better spent on coaching? There is high chance it would.

My advice is to get to know few players locally and try their setups and let them have a go with yours. From my experience any setup is valid if your are willing to work hard to tame it and don't get bothered in losing games because of unforced errors. Every beast can be tamed it's just matter of persistence and hard work. There is no perfect, thus you will never find it. It's matter of either finding a setup whose shortcommings you can cope with or learning to play with any gear. (either of those will come with experience)

When it comes to the video, I think opening up the wrist doing a fade. If you want to make normal top spin then I think your wrist, bat and arm should be in line (if you crook wrist inwards you get hook side-top spin (in case of right handed players ball will drift left), if you do it outwards you will get fade side-top spin (ball will drift right)). Although those techniques are useful I think getting hang of bare top spin is important too. They have more power and raw spin than their side counterparts.

PS: That's only my take on the subject and it might not be absulutely single best answer. Keep that in mind.

 

[garwor]

use what allows you better match play, not practice session. In practice couch gives you balls such that you can hit at top of bounce, so you can start thinking fast stiff is ok for you, while in real match you will be often out of position and late, in these situation something with dwell and control helps. Personally, having several blades with various prices and materials and using at least twenty in past, I feel most safe with my flexy slow no name blade.

 

[yogi_bear]

Use the Nostalgic All and then pair it with a Xiom Vega Asia DF or Vega Europe DF both of which are soft rubbers.

 

[doppelganger_LT]

Thanks everybody for the insights! I will try both nostalgic all and a softer blade in real matches and see how much difference it will make. Regarding coaching - I realize that would have a huge impact on the training curve, but at the moment I cannot find one
Regarding different rubbers - I tried Vega Europe on both blades, Nostalgic All still feels real hard.

 

[ttarc]

Thanks everybody for the insights! I will try both nostalgic all and a softer blade in real matches and see how much difference it will make. Regarding coaching - I realize that would have a huge impact on the training curve, but at the moment I cannot find one
Regarding different rubbers - I tried Vega Europe on both blades, Nostalgic All still feels real hard.

If you want to try something in between Wenge and Limba (and neither to flexible nor to stiff) I can recommend the Yasaka Sweden Extra (not to slow ALL+ to OFF- blade) with an Anegre outer ply or the classic Donic Persson Powerplay (Koto, paper foil, 3x Ayous, paper foil, Koto). Don't get the Senso variants from Donic with hollow handles because they imo shift the weight balance with heavier, modern rubbers to much to the head unless you want to make a beast mod (i.e. fill the hollow handle with "stuff" to get a more solid feeling and less head heaviness)

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

The video shows you are working on the right things and progressing well. Also nice you have gotten to work with the guys on TTD Academy. They will know how to help you.

I think, for the level you are at, probably the most important thing to have in place is that the blade you use enables you to feel the ball well. So, all wood is usually preferable for that.

More flex or more stiff: to some extent this is a personal preference. But more flex does tend to help you learn how to hold the ball on the blade face (rubber) for a tiny bit longer to get more spin. Whereas, stiffer blades will reward more direct contact and, so, they will be good for driving and drive looping. A high level player with good precision contact will be able to loop, drive loop or drive with any blade including the stiffest of blades. But, someone learning the precision of touching the ball delicately while making moderately deep contact and having powerful impact on that delicate touch, would have an easier time learning the precision of higher level contact with a blade that has a little more flex.

Hard, soft, or somewhere in between. I would also say this is a personal choice. Some players have a better feeling with harder woods and some with softer woods. Harder top plies also do make you need to be more precise. And softer woods are a tiny bit more forgiving when a player is developing touch. At higher levels you will get much more bang out of a harder top ply with the 40+ Poly ball. And with the 40+ Poly ball, players learning the touch of contact for spin still may be fine with a harder top ply than would have been the case with the old, smaller 40mm celluloid balls. So, in the end, if one really feels better, it really should be fine to go with that because of the nature of the 40+ ball.

However, there is a possibility that, part of what feels better with the harder top plies is that you are making more direct contact. And with that, harder top plies will feel crisper and like they have more snap. Liking that, being rewarded by that, could make it take longer to develop higher level spin contact. Because, that would be you liking the reward of direct contact instead of feeling the distortion of the topsheet and compression of the sponge of spin contact (without bottoming out and hitting into the wood).

From my perspective, one of the things that keeps mid-level players (and lower) from improving faster is that, higher level technique all revolves around developing the touch and feel to make spin contact: tangential contact where you barely touch the edge of the ball and get the ball to sink into the sponge so that the topsheet wraps around the edge of the ball and really grabs it, but the ball does not go deep enough to bottom out (bang against the wood of the top ply).

It is interesting: to do this well, you do have to have significant racket speed, you do need to have power on your impact, but you also need to have A DELICATE TOUCH. This is the thing that takes so long to develop for adult learners.

Some of the exercises in this video, show the amount of control a high level player can have on how the rubber touches the ball:

The first exercise, if you practice that against a wall (it is really hard on the edge of the table until you can do it really well against a wall) it will actually really help your touch. It seems funny, but if you can do it, you will be much better at touching the ball delicately. That will also help with short game skills like pushing short.

The second exercise, the backspin catcher, if you look closely, he is touching the ball so delicately that, as it is spinning so fast, he is touching so lightly that the rubber does not stop the spin and the ball makes, literally, hundreds of contacts as he softens the spin of the ball to till it slows and he can just hold the ball on the blade face.

And all of the exercises in the video show how Marcos Freitas has so much control of the blade face, how delicately he can touch the ball and how precise he can be with how he touches the ball.

Practicing and trying to develop that kind of ability to touch the ball delicately with control is what will help you improve. And any blade that can help you in that, will be a good blade to use as you develop your skills.

 

[doppelganger_LT]

Wow, I got more info I than could hope for, though I admit I was looking forward to your reply, @UpSideDownCarl Thanks so much, it's all crystal clear now. Will work on the ball touch instead of reading equipment forums

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Wow, I got more info I than could hope for, though I admit I was looking forward to your reply, @UpSideDownCarl Thanks so much, it's all crystal clear now. Will work on the ball touch instead of reading equipment forums

I actually really wanted to reply days ago but was too busy. You are in good hands with Dan and Tom though. But, hopefully that video gives you an idea of some stuff you can practice on your own.

This one has more realistic suggestions. But I have to say, practicing that one he is doing on the edge of the table was a game changer in terms of developing touch for me.

These exercises are simple. But they will also help. I remember thinking that the one where you brush over the ball and get the ball to roll was silly before I understood it. But it also helps with how you touch the ball and is actually specific to how you touch the ball for topspin.

 

[Kuba Hajto]

These exercises are simple. But they will also help. I remember thinking that the one where you brush over the ball and get the ball to roll was silly before I understood it. But it also helps with how you touch the ball and is actually specific to how you touch the ball for topspin.

Not all of them are easy. I personally have issues with caching the ball with no bounces (it still bounces ones or twice). It's a great boredom killer though.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Not all of them are easy. I personally have issues with caching the ball with no bounces (it still bounces ones or twice). It's a great boredom killer though.

Yeah. I did not say they were easy. They are simple; what I mean by that is that they are not so complicated to practice; so, much easier to practice than the more complicated exercises in the Marcos Freitas video.

But these exercises lead to increased skill in how precisely you can touch the ball. So, these exercises would help lead towards the skills that allow you to do the exercises in the Freitas video.

However, with a wall, the first exercise in the M Freitas video is well worth practicing because it really helps your precision. It is much harder doing it against the side of the table. But you can learn to do it with a wall and over time become skilled enough with it to do it on the edge of the table.

So, not easy, but simple, as in, not too complicated to practice on your own.

 

[doppelganger_LT]

Speaking of touch and precision exercises, what do you guys think of the return boards? Just tried one today, it's so much harder than just hitting the balls from a robot:
https://youtu.be/XrWsR7Q96UY

 

[Kuba Hajto]

Speaking of touch and precision exercises, what do you guys think of the return boards?

They are fun, looking forward to building one. Trying to figure out what material to make surface from though.

 

[doppelganger_LT]

I bought a small one and used the parts to build a larger one. For extending the surface I bought some cheapest chinese rubbers from tt11. Works fine, but it's so hard - if I try to hit without sufficient spin it simply does not return the ball, and if I spin a bit too much, the ball flies back over the table

 

[Kuba Hajto]

I bought a small one and used the parts to build a larger one. For extending the surface I bought some cheapest chinese rubbers from tt11. Works fine, but it's so hard - if I try to hit without sufficient spin it simply does not return the ball, and if I spin a bit too much, the ball flies back over the table

So it punishes you for lack of consistency, that might not be the worst case scenario.

 

[doppelganger_LT]

Exactly, that's why I asked if you guys consider it to be a good touch and precision exercise It's just that it forces you to play very soft and that might be not very good for a compettition?

 

[Kuba Hajto]

Exactly, that's why I asked if you guys consider it to be a good touch and precision exercise It's just that it forces you to play very soft and that might be not very good for a compettition?

Why soft? Set up an angle for powerful shots and start by looping from the hand (hold the ball in one hand and hit the ball while it drops) and continue laying on it.