Other candidates for GOAT

[greenbeanmachine]

Okay y'all so I think most people would agree that Ma Long is the GOAT of men's table tennis. He's the most decorated, and he's demonstrated an incredible ability to strategize and adapt his style of play to beat any opponent. But I think that there are solid arguments that other players are the GOAT -- there are many different dimensions and aspects of table tennis, and many incredible contributions to the game of table tennis.

Personally, I think that medals should be a factor in determining the GOAT, but not necessarily the deciding factor. For this reason, I think that Zhang Jike and Kong Linghui should not be part of the contest for GOAT. While they did each achieve a grand slam, I don't think that their other contributions to the sport were significant enough to call them GOAT.

So in the spirit of having dumb debates on the internet, I would like to propose a few other candidates for the GOAT.

1. Jan-Ove Waldner, the Mozart of table tennis. Surely he is unrivaled in style, deception, and ball placement skills. He also played table tennis at the highest level in three different decades. Grand slam winner.

2. Liu Guoliang. A traditional Chinese penholder who adapted the penhold grip to the modern game. He invented the Reverse Penhold Backhand (RPB) and kept the penhold grip alive at a competitive level. Responsible in large part for the state of the modern Chinese team. Grand-slam winner.

3. Ma Lin. A major inspiration for penhold players, with an incredibly unique and funny style. The only thing keeping him from a grand-slam were Wang Hao and Wang Liqin, extremely strong players from the same era who could also be considered the GOAT. Perfected the chop-block and loop-kill. Coach of Chinese women's team.

4. Timo Boll. The premiere tactician. All of his points are very carefully built, and I think he is definitely the GOAT in terms of strategy. Also rivals Jan-Ove Waldner for longevity in the sport. Contributed a lot to the development of the game and its equipment, as well. Best hand-switcher.

5. Xu Xin. The steeziest player of all time. Also the best doubles player of all time. Not so well-decorated in singles, but still held the #1 world ranking for 23 months. His unique style is well-suited for doubles, as well as for incredible trick shots.


What do you all think? Am I missing anyone? Are any of these players not good enough to be considered the GOAT?

Personally, I am of the opinion that Ma Lin is the GOAT. But I am biased because he is a huge inspiration to me personally.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

FAN Zhendong if he wins Paris Olympics will start to look like the real GOAT.. 2 times Olympic Champion (2 for ML), 2 times world champion (3 for ML), 4 times World Cup winner (3 for ML) , 2 times ITTF finals winner (4 for ML), 1 time WTT finals winner

If in addition, he gets the World Champ title (in 2025) plus another WTT finals title, his trophy collection will then definitely look better than MA Long. He is only 27.

IMO He does look injured and it doesn't look like he will achieve this, but I'm maybe just a hater. He is still young and still has time to repair his body if he feels he needs it.

FZD made a huge impact when he arrived on the circuit. I think we've never seen someone so athletic play at his level before.

if FZD ends up with those titles, people will debate endlessly about WHATIFs ML did play in Houston after his Olympic title ? WHATIF China had 3, not 2 players in singles at OG ?

 

[Robin0910]

FAN Zhendong if he wins Paris Olympics will start to look like the real GOAT.. 2 times Olympic Champion (2 for ML), 2 times world champion (3 for ML), 4 times World Cup winner (3 for ML) , 2 times ITTF finals winner (4 for ML), 1 time WTT finals winner

If in addition, he gets the World Champ title (in 2025) plus another WTT finals title, his trophy collection will then definitely look better than MA Long. He is only 27.

IMO He does look injured and it doesn't look like he will achieve this, but I'm maybe just a hater. He is still young and still has time to repair his body if he feels he needs it.

FZD made a huge impact when he arrived on the circuit. I think we've never seen someone so athletic play at his level before.

if FZD ends up with those titles, people will debate endlessly about WHATIFs ML did play in Houston after his Olympic title ? WHATIF China had 3, not 2 players in singles at OG ?

He’s never won the Olympics in MS, only in team

 

[Wrighty67]

Okay y'all so I think most people would agree that Ma Long is the GOAT of men's table tennis. He's the most decorated, and he's demonstrated an incredible ability to strategize and adapt his style of play to beat any opponent. But I think that there are solid arguments that other players are the GOAT -- there are many different dimensions and aspects of table tennis, and many incredible contributions to the game of table tennis.

Personally, I think that medals should be a factor in determining the GOAT, but not necessarily the deciding factor. For this reason, I think that Zhang Jike and Kong Linghui should not be part of the contest for GOAT. While they did each achieve a grand slam, I don't think that their other contributions to the sport were significant enough to call them GOAT.

So in the spirit of having dumb debates on the internet, I would like to propose a few other candidates for the GOAT.

1. Jan-Ove Waldner, the Mozart of table tennis. Surely he is unrivaled in style, deception, and ball placement skills. He also played table tennis at the highest level in three different decades. Grand slam winner.

2. Liu Guoliang. A traditional Chinese penholder who adapted the penhold grip to the modern game. He invented the Reverse Penhold Backhand (RPB) and kept the penhold grip alive at a competitive level. Responsible in large part for the state of the modern Chinese team. Grand-slam winner.

3. Ma Lin. A major inspiration for penhold players, with an incredibly unique and funny style. The only thing keeping him from a grand-slam were Wang Hao and Wang Liqin, extremely strong players from the same era who could also be considered the GOAT. Perfected the chop-block and loop-kill. Coach of Chinese women's team.

4. Timo Boll. The premiere tactician. All of his points are very carefully built, and I think he is definitely the GOAT in terms of strategy. Also rivals Jan-Ove Waldner for longevity in the sport. Contributed a lot to the development of the game and its equipment, as well. Best hand-switcher.

5. Xu Xin. The steeziest player of all time. Also the best doubles player of all time. Not so well-decorated in singles, but still held the #1 world ranking for 23 months. His unique style is well-suited for doubles, as well as for incredible trick shots.


What do you all think? Am I missing anyone? Are any of these players not good enough to be considered the GOAT?

Personally, I am of the opinion that Ma Lin is the GOAT. But I am biased because he is a huge inspiration to me personally.

Samsonov?

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

He’s never won the Olympics in MS, only in team

Oops that’s right. Well FZD is 27 and will be 31 in Atlanta. Let’s not write him off yet

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

Oops that’s right. Well FZD is 27 and will be 31 in Atlanta. Let’s not write him off yet

Atlanta -> Los Angeles

 

[NextLevel]

He’s never won the Olympics in MS, only in team

In which case then he has to win 3 Olympic Teams and 2 Olympic Singles to catch ML by that standard.

 

[\_Kairos_/]

What do you all think?

So you rule out Zhang Jike and Kong Linghui while finding "reasons" that Boll and/or Xu Xin have solid arguments for being the GOAT? That does not make much sense...

First of all, there are no objective facts that speak against Ma Long being, at this point in time, the GOAT, simply because he checks all the relevant boxes. I'm more than sure that the majority of his peers also consider him to be the GOAT - that is relevant, i. e. the opinion of former and current players.
He is, as you said, not only the most decorated (singles) player, but he is also extremely consistent against high-level competition for 15+ years now. Even when he wasn't winning a tournament (from let's say 2009-2024), he usually went very far (runner-up, 3rd place); I don't remember him having silly and unnecessary losses against completely inferior opponents unlike other players (Yes, I'm (also) talking to you Waldner ). Of course he was/is extremely reliable in team competition, too.
Ma Long has a dominating head-to-head record against his main rivals over the years. Being almost 36 years old now and still a Top5 player in the world, he also checks the box regarding longevity. All the other rivals for the GOAT title have far more "issues".

I'm not even discussing why neither Boll nor Xu Xin can be the GOAT; it's too obvious.

Liu Guoliang? For how long was he relevant as a player? 5 years? 7? What other titles did he win aside from his World Cup, OG and WC? Inventing a new technique doesn't mean, they are superior to their opponents. Jan Bokloev (accidentally) invented the now common V-style in ski jumping. Did he win a lot by using it? No. At the end of the day, Guoliangs track record as a coach is far more impressive.

Ma Lin? No. He didn't win a single WC on multiple attempts (much like Wang Hao didn't win OG on three attempts).

Now Waldner. He is my alltime favourite player (with Maze being 2nd), but he is not the GOAT. He was a lot less consistent against high-level competition compared to Ma Long. He had silly losses (Gothenburg 93, Atlanta 96, multiple World Cups, European Championships), and he doesn't have a dominating head-to head record against his main rivals over the years (Jörgen Persson, Liu Guoliang); he only really dominated Ma Wenge.
That being said, I think that Waldner is the most talented player ever, the one true genius of tt. But he, despite having had so much success, is also the biggest underachiever of tt. Given his talent he should have won so much more, but he hasn't...
In a hypothetical match between Waldner and Ma Long (both at their respective best) I would actually give Waldner the slight edge.

Ma Long checks all the boxes and his achievements are super-solid across the board; i. e. he has outperformed all relevant competitiors for the GOAT title. Even if FZD gets sort of equal with Ma Long title-wise one day, he wouldn't be the GOAT, because he has a terrible H2H record vs Ma Long, particularly in finals.

 

[NextLevel]

Okay y'all so I think most people would agree that Ma Long is the GOAT of men's table tennis. He's the most decorated, and he's demonstrated an incredible ability to strategize and adapt his style of play to beat any opponent. But I think that there are solid arguments that other players are the GOAT -- there are many different dimensions and aspects of table tennis, and many incredible contributions to the game of table tennis.

Personally, I think that medals should be a factor in determining the GOAT, but not necessarily the deciding factor. For this reason, I think that Zhang Jike and Kong Linghui should not be part of the contest for GOAT. While they did each achieve a grand slam, I don't think that their other contributions to the sport were significant enough to call them GOAT.

So in the spirit of having dumb debates on the internet, I would like to propose a few other candidates for the GOAT.

1. Jan-Ove Waldner, the Mozart of table tennis. Surely he is unrivaled in style, deception, and ball placement skills. He also played table tennis at the highest level in three different decades. Grand slam winner.

2. Liu Guoliang. A traditional Chinese penholder who adapted the penhold grip to the modern game. He invented the Reverse Penhold Backhand (RPB) and kept the penhold grip alive at a competitive level. Responsible in large part for the state of the modern Chinese team. Grand-slam winner.

3. Ma Lin. A major inspiration for penhold players, with an incredibly unique and funny style. The only thing keeping him from a grand-slam were Wang Hao and Wang Liqin, extremely strong players from the same era who could also be considered the GOAT. Perfected the chop-block and loop-kill. Coach of Chinese women's team.

4. Timo Boll. The premiere tactician. All of his points are very carefully built, and I think he is definitely the GOAT in terms of strategy. Also rivals Jan-Ove Waldner for longevity in the sport. Contributed a lot to the development of the game and its equipment, as well. Best hand-switcher.

5. Xu Xin. The steeziest player of all time. Also the best doubles player of all time. Not so well-decorated in singles, but still held the #1 world ranking for 23 months. His unique style is well-suited for doubles, as well as for incredible trick shots.


What do you all think? Am I missing anyone? Are any of these players not good enough to be considered the GOAT?

Personally, I am of the opinion that Ma Lin is the GOAT. But I am biased because he is a huge inspiration to me personally.

I find the dismissal of Kong Linghui and Zhang Jike's contributions interesting, especially when players like Timo Boll and Xu Xin are being discussed as if they had major contributions (they really don't). I think Ma Lin has a case but not quite the way you made it, and when you make it properly, it makes dismissing Kong and Zhang even more puzzling.

IT's fun to discuss TT players though. Wang Hao, Wang Liqin and Samsonov also worth discussing in different ways and for different reasons.

 

[Robin0910]

I find the dismissal of Kong Linghui and Zhang Jike's contributions interesting, especially when players like Timo Boll and Xu Xin are being discussed as if they had major contributions (they really don't). I think Ma Lin has a case but not quite the way you made it, and when you make it properly, it makes dismissing Kong and Zhang even more puzzling.

IT's fun to discuss TT players though. Wang Hao, Wang Liqin and Samsonov also worth discussing in different ways and for different reasons.

Had Wang Hao won 2 Olympics would he be the goat?

 

[NextLevel]

Had Wang Hao won 2 Olympics would he be the goat?

Not for me, but his case would obviously be stronger. First real high level RPB in TT and still not quite duplicated. But as I argued elsewhere, as a backhand player on the CNT, he was very unique and a precursor of Zhang Jike and Fan Zhendong.

 

[Aizen]

Ma long is the clear goat (greatest of all the times)

If there is a candidate, he should be from next generations, like fzd or wcq.

There is no question that ma long over thrown all his predecessor, and dominated his era.

Of course, there could be some other favorite players for “you”.

Or we can rephrase goat as the most influential or unique or fun to watch etc, but for now on he is the goat.

If wcq wins olympics 2 in a row which he can due to age, then we may have new goat.

 

[zeio]

Refer to posts #1, #2, #3 and #10 on what Harimoto and Mizutani think about ZJK, and how ML feels about losing to WH at WTTC 2009/2011/2013 and ZJK at World Cup 2014.

For Waldner, his stats for WTTC, especially against China, are impressive. He is 1 of only 4 players to have taken 2 points off of China in the team event. Keep in mind individual and team events used to be held together until 1997 and so the scheduling was hectic.

For the Olympics, unlike subsequent editions with seeding since Sydney 2000, all players had to start from the group stage at Seoul 1988, Barcelona 1992 and Atlanta 1996, so much of it came down to the draw for the knockout stage. For example, at Atlanta 1996, KLH always had trouble against KTS and they were drawn in R16, and Waldner who always had trouble against shortpips was drawn Johnny Huang in R16 and LGL in QF.

Seoul 1988 - 8 groups, 8 players each, top 2 advance to R16 with 1st in group against 2nd in group
Barcelona 1992 - 16 groups, 4 players each, top 1 advance to R16
Atlanta 1996 - 16 groups, 4 players each, top 1 advance to R16

For the World Cup, it was highly contested in the 80s and 90s. Waldner made the podium 4 times, reached the final 3 times, and won 1 time. ML's record here isn't all that impressive in face of MLin, FZD, WH and Samsonov, just slightly better than Boll. ZJK has a ridiculously high success rate here, having played 3 times only.

For comparison:
Guo Yuehua, 3, 2, 2;
Grubba 4, 3, 1;
Jiang Jialiang 5, 3, 1 (take with a grain of salt as match-fixing was common);
Chen Longcan 3, 2, 1;
Persson 1, 1, 1;
Ma Wenge 3, 3, 2;
Yoo Namkyu 1, 0, 0;
Gatien 2, 2, 1;
Primorac 6, 2, 2;
Rosskopf 3, 2, 1;
KTS 3, 3, 0;
Kreanga 2, 2, 0;
KLH 3, 3, 1;
LGL 2, 1, 1;
Samsonov 7, 4, 3;
WLQ 5, 1, 0;
MLin 5, 4, 4;
Boll 8, 6, 2;
RSM 1, 0, 0;
WH 7, 6, 3;
ZJK 3, 3, 2;
Ovtcharov 3, 1, 1;
ML 8, 5, 3;
XX 2, 2, 1;
FZD 5, 5, 4;
WCQ 1, 0, 0;
LYJ 1, 0, 0;
Harimoto 3, 1, 0.

 

[mightymouse]

2. Liu Guoliang. A traditional Chinese penholder who adapted the penhold grip to the modern game. He invented the Reverse Penhold Backhand (RPB) and kept the penhold grip alive at a competitive level. Responsible in large part for the state of the modern Chinese team. Grand-slam winner.

HEY HEY.... I AM THE INVENTOR of RPB !!!!

Back in the late 70s, when I first started to learn table tennis (LGL was still in diaper) I used penhold grip. I watched lots of matches (in video) and tried to imitate Zhuan Ze Dong (incorrect spelling?). He could do backhand smash (in traditional penhold grip). I tried hard but it just felt unnatural to me. So I put a rubber on the backhand side and tried to do "what they called RPB now".

To the horror of every other players that saw me doing backhand "RPB style" they always said that penhold grip was not meant to be played that way. After 2 years of frustration, I finally changed to shakehand grip and never look back.

BUT NOW every penhold grip players are doing RPB and since they are world class players, no one seems to object and even praise them.

But when I did that, everybody criticized me. Talking about double standard here.

The last sentence is just a joke but THE WHOLE STORY IS TRUE.

So can everybody agree now and say that I AM THE INVENTOR OF RPB????

Every penhold-grip players must pay me a royalty fee every time they do the RPB.


Additional info:
Current penhold bat has backhand rubber fully cover the wood so the 3 fingers are rested on the rubber. Back then, I put my backhand rubber lower than usual (similar to the FH side) so that my 3 fingers rested on the wood. Although I used Chinese penhold blade ( I can't remember if it's DHS PF4 or 032) but I got this idea from the Japanese penhold bat, where they had corks on the backhand side for the 3 fingers and painted the rest of the wood.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

GOAT should have a measurable parameter rather than some subjective or arbitrarily made up parameter.
GOAT is the one with the most Grand Slam under his belt.
ML has two.... who else got three?
...
...
...
Exactly. So ML remains GOAT until such time we have 3 times Grand Slam winner.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

since the blahblah guy calls me anti China, he would be surprised that I have been calling a Chinese WOMEN as the GOAT over Ma Long (mens+womens) on TTD for a long time (TTD search tells me since 2013).

Deng Yaping deserves a mention, if not the clear label of GOAT over Ma Long.

World Cup for womens came in late, else Deng would have more titles
Deng was in an era where grand slam seeking wasn't the same as that of Ma Long or ZJK era, so Deng choose to retire early. She wasn't injured or anything - just had no more competition.
She was in an era were women's didn't play long too.

She retired at age 24 (1997) with
world championships gold x 3
Olympic gold x 2
world cup gold x 1 (mens world cup had 16 years head start, Deng retired after only taking part in the first women's world cup in 1996).

if she played till 28 or 30, she could easily had a min 2 grand slam, possibly even 3.
if world cup came in early, she would likely had 3 to 4 world cup gold in the era she dominated at retirement age of 24.

For someone who is 24 years old, with such allocades, showed her dominances in history books and paved ways for Chinese Women's dominance for this 40 years period.

Ma Long was shipped into the CNT on a golden platter and was natured to be the king since his young days.
On the contary...
Deng Yaping was considered a threat to the success of Chinese table tennis and would have never been able to compete against the forigners and deemed inelidgble and/or unfit for CNT. If it wasn't her willpower to prove the leadership wrong, and if leadership still didn't allowed her to come in, she would have never been abled to compete internationally at all.

If Deng Yaping had just 10% of Ma Long's support getting into CNT in her youth, who knows what other greatness would surface from her playing career.

So if one don't consider Deng over Ma Long, then surely, she should be very close to number 2 or 3.
But she is never mentioned most of the time.

blahblah, is this pro west or anti china??

when I talk bad, then blahblah calls it anti - "put name in here"
so anti - ma long talk now? lol

Ma Long was not a winning in his younger years.
He was deemed future champion, but he didn't take over the current Chinese champions then.
If he came on and dominate since a younger age, then he would have gotten his 3 grand slams.
But if waiting for people to retire, for you to dominate... it does open some room of thoughts if he has been the greatest all his career, or only those where he was "un matched" due to other's retirement.

He did adapt to the new ball well and change his style of play to play till this age, of which Timo Boll and Chuang has adapted too. Ma Long is however special to play so long (opps, not anti-malong talk now), but it would been more special if he came on and dominated earlier and didn't allow ZJK to even have that spotlight (im more anti zjk haha).

also note, CNT mens depth has dropped. FZD was the next best and weren't many threats since then. No one threatening Ma Long when he was 30 years old, and that wasn't the case with previous leaders.
Even today, is it Ma Long's greatness or weak youngsters? I believe it is the latter.
If Ma Long was in an era where at 25, he will be threaten by a 20 year old, or 28 by 3 x 22 years old, he wouldn't been in the top 3 that long.
In the world of table tennis in the past 40 years, you need to be top 3 in China to have a chance of grand slam.

 

[zeio]

since the blahblah guy calls me anti China, he would be surprised that I have been calling a Chinese WOMEN as the GOAT over Ma Long (mens+womens) on TTD for a long time (TTD search tells me since 2013).

I don't know. CNN distinguishes anti-Israel from antisemitic comments when it fits the narrative. So it's possible for you to be anti-China without being anti-Chinese. Given your ties with team Chinese Taipei, it actually makes no sense for you to be anti-Chinese, right?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I don't know. CNN distinguishes anti-Israel from antisemitic comments when it fits the narrative. So it's possible for you to be anti-China without being anti-Chinese. Given your ties with team Chinese Taipei, it actually makes no sense for you to be anti-Chinese, right?

I don't even watch CNN, I am probably anti west too haha.

it is like, if I hate certain things in Taiwan, am I now anti Taiwan?

Taiwan is the only top TT national that don't have professional league for table tennis, and that is probably the worse thing possible in the entire table tennis structure.
Given my connections to "all parties", I tried to help tie the knot together over the past 3 years, but fractions is too much for my tiny thread to work.

So when i'm anti Chinese, is it the people, the country, the language, or the food?
I can never be anti any food.

I wonder why blah doesn't just call me anti table tennis.
I should probably change my rubbers to anti to fit his narrative

 

[NDH]

Ahhhh, the old GOAT conversation.

GOAT should have a measurable parameter rather than some subjective or arbitrarily made up parameter.

I think there should be rules on this, like Gozo said..... But if you did that, you'd only ever get one answer that couldn't be debated.

GOAT for me will never be about statistics alone.

Federer will forever be my Tennis GOAT.

Why not Djokovic? Who is the greatest player statistically?

Lots of reasons, but play style, on (and off) court conduct, and just that intangible that you can't quite explain - Watching Federer was like watching poetry. Watching Djokovic is like watching a well oiled robot (I'm sure plenty will disagree!)

It's for this reason that I could quite happily put Timo in the argument for GOAT.

His longevity, the impact he's had on European Table Tennis, his wins..... He'll never be statistically the greatest, but I'd much rather watch him play than LGL.

All of that being said, in this era, it's hard not to argue with Ma Long.

I don't see many negatives being said against him (he seems universally liked), his play style is breathtaking and he carries himself very well.

To back that up, his statistics alone put him in number 1 place.

FZD just doesn't have the same attraction (a little like Federer vs Djokovic) - He's more robotic and less pleasing on the eye for me personally.

But hey, I'm sure it's nice to be in the conversation regardless!

 

[Wrighty67]

Ahhhh, the old GOAT conversation.



I think there should be rules on this, like Gozo said..... But if you did that, you'd only ever get one answer that couldn't be debated.

GOAT for me will never be about statistics alone.

Federer will forever be my Tennis GOAT.

Why not Djokovic? Who is the greatest player statistically?

Lots of reasons, but play style, on (and off) court conduct, and just that intangible that you can't quite explain - Watching Federer was like watching poetry. Watching Djokovic is like watching a well oiled robot (I'm sure plenty will disagree!)

It's for this reason that I could quite happily put Timo in the argument for GOAT.

His longevity, the impact he's had on European Table Tennis, his wins..... He'll never be statistically the greatest, but I'd much rather watch him play than LGL.

All of that being said, in this era, it's hard not to argue with Ma Long.

I don't see many negatives being said against him (he seems universally liked), his play style is breathtaking and he carries himself very well.

To back that up, his statistics alone put him in number 1 place.

FZD just doesn't have the same attraction (a little like Federer vs Djokovic) - He's more robotic and less pleasing on the eye for me personally.

But hey, I'm sure it's nice to be in the conversation regardless!

I agree - so many variables.

ML - stats wise, pretty much undisputed.

Like you I am massive Fed fan, and before that Mac (for different reasons) so I am drawn to players who change the landscape a little like Samsonov, ZJK. They have moved the needle in various ways and achieved great things too.