Pips in V/S pips out

says Spin and more spin.
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I have been thinking about something related to this thread for a while. Sorry to wake the issue back up, but I do think this has been a good discussion worth engaging in. So in the Hard Bat era there was this phenomenon that people realized that if you were a defensive player and mainly chopped the ball, you could chop and chop and wait for the other person to make a mistake and then win based on just getting the ball on the table consistently. The result of this is that there was a period in the sport where play was dominated by defensive players. This caused the creation of the expedite rule: http://tabletennis.about.com/od/thelawsoftabletennis/a/expedite.htm

Now, without deceptive rubber, in the hard bat era, where everyone was using pretty much the same equipment, defensive play was still hard to deal with. There is this one place I play at where where most of the players are sort of low level defensive players. Most of them are using recreational rackets that cost somewhere between $3.00 and $10.00. Some of them have something like what you would get from ZeroPong: http://zeropong.com/home.php?cat=249 which would be a step up from the Hard Bats and the Halex rackets the rest use. Most of these players are defensive players. Most of the offensive players who think they are good are unable to consistently return the underspin and the changes of spin that the defensive players are dealing. They do not know how to loop underspin yet or they do not do it well enough. Many people who start playing offensively there, end up switching to a defensive style of play because they learn that they cannot win against the "better" players by playing offensively and see that most of the "better" players there are simply cutting the ball over and over again. When a solid looper shows up and knows how to attack those underspin shots well enough, the "better" players at this place usually lose but there are not that many decent club type players that would want to play at this venue for many reasons, from lighting to lack of competition, to the fact that, if you play there, if you play someone who can get some of your shots back they are always going to be a defensive style player.

What is the point of what I am saying? It has been said that Pips Out and Anti Spin make it so that someone can win more games against higher level and better trained players without the player actually developing their game more. And what I am saying is that defensive play that is at your level is always hard to deal with because it is deceptive and you have to work hard for points and since the spin that is coming at you from a defensive player is probably changing consistently, you have to keep on your toes regardless of what kind of setup the opponent has. Unless you are at a higher level then the defensive player you are playing, defensive play presents a challenge.

However, at the highest levels of play, it is very very hard for a defensive player to get up to the level of the top offensive players. But Still Joo Se Hyuk and Chen Weixing still get matches ever so often from players in the top 10. I saw a match some time last year where Timo Boll lost to Chen Weixing. So defensive play is a real challenge to deal with but that does not say anything about the skill level of a defensive player. A defensive player who is ranked #38 in the world is a player who is ranked #38 in the world. A defensive player with a USATT rating of 1850 is a player with an 1850 rating they earned that with the techniques that they use.

And I for one, and always happy to play against defensive players because, to me it is fun, and it presents a challenge that I like that is different than just playing another offensive player. And because I can see that when I play a defensive player, my skills as an offensive player improve.
 
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Wow..expedite system huh. Thanx Carl, I didn't even know that existed. I thought they only have that in squash. Great find buddy!! There you go..just when you know everything that needs to know about TT ahahahaha

I can't believe you didn't know it exists! Just the World Team TTC few months ago, the Japan vs Korea women match did go into the expedite system lol... but thats also when I know the existence. But if you imagine everyone still play defensive way like the old old days... 24hrs TT?
 
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And I for one, and always happy to play against defensive players because, to me it is fun, and it presents a challenge that I like that is different than just playing another offensive player. And because I can see that when I play a defensive player, my skills as an offensive player improve.

And it is also a challenge to play attacking players for defenders like me: the high rhytm and the spin variation that come at you.
Your last sentence is absolutely true: I train regularly with a guy who came to our club last year. This guy has developed a killer attacking game within one year. He reads spin so well and attacks accordingly. Part of his development is his talent and the training he enjoyed in his other club, but part of his development I attribute to the training he had/has with me. I myself enjoy playing against defenders: it's hard work and your attacking game need to be first class to beat those guys.
 
says Spin and more spin.
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And it is also a challenge to play attacking players for defenders like me: the high rhytm and the spin variation that come at you.
Your last sentence is absolutely true: I train regularly with a guy who came to our club last year. This guy has developed a killer attacking game within one year. He reads spin so well and attacks accordingly. Part of his development is his talent and the training he enjoyed in his other club, but part of his development I attribute to the training he had/has with me. I myself enjoy playing against defenders: it's hard work and your attacking game need to be first class to beat those guys.

A perfect balance. :)
 
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Amen my brother, amen!!!

pips are deceptive in nature and slow the ball down therefore they are a defensive type of rubber. It's how you use them that defines the type of shot. Any rubber can be used for an offensive shot and a defensive shot. While i totally believe that every player should have the right to use whatever rubber they choose, i believe we need to create an organization that only allows inverted rubbers to accommodate the players who have trouble with the pips. There are already plenty of players witn pips in the current organizations and there are even sandpaper and hardbat events all over the world. What we need now is an inverted only player to just make the complaining stop.

Pips are for players who prefer athleticism and/or deception over technique and skill. You aren't skilled at tt if you're using pips because they do most of the work. For the inverted rubbers technique must be mastered meaning a required skill level must be in place to win matches.

I've personally played players that are 400-500 rated points above my skill level and won against them when i've switched to any type of pips. It's a clear advantage and in my opinion only stagnates the growth of the sport. Deceptive players and pips players tend to really lower the level of play in an area because they rarely allow players to learn technique properly. Typically a player will learn from experience rather than coaching and therefore strike up some fairly ugly techniques. Their elbows are out of place wrist takes up more action rather than the arm and shoulder and footwork becomes terrible as they would rather reach than position for the strongest stroke.

I suggest that instead of complaining about the pips a player may use, help to start up leagues or events at tournaments where pips are not allowed. Equality for all meaning if you want to learn how to beat pips you can take the time to do so, but if you want to just play inverted players there is also the option for that as well. If we were able to gain more players in events, i'm sure organizations would strike up more events across the globe.

So here's to some more tt growth.
 
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Oh not not this again. Let it be known that I never said anything about a higher level player playing a lower level pips player. What I had said was that pips in their nature can and do (actually I'm rephrasing this, but still explaining my intent rather than what was communicated prior) raise the level of a players skill. John Wetzler is a great example of this. He rarely uses an inverted backhand shot unless it's absolutely necessary to win the point (i.e. a stronger attacker playing him). He has a poor backhand in general with both pips and inverted, but the pips allow him the time to get his forehand into the game. As far as forehand and service go John is crazy good which reflects on his rating of around 2200-2400 depending on what tournaments he's playing in the U.S. He however has mentioned that without the pips he would not be able to keep up with the attackers at his rating level and above and therefore would not be able to keep up his rating at that level. He is an over 40 champion in PA and he's a great guy, but his pips help him play at higher levels where his age is restricting him in.

Pips in general are a great rubber and I think they're a fantastic creation, but to a player from the basement or to any audience member who isn't well informed on the sport, they will not understand what pips do and immediately are turned off from the sport because of that fact. While modern defenders such as Chen and Joo are exceptional at their strokes and athleticism the majority of players out there use pips in a chop block fashion that requires less skill than the former mentioned players.

These are the types of players that I was referring to that stagnate the growth of the sport. It's just not fun to watch two players standing close to the table chop blocking the ball back and forth with no movement. It's definitely not fun to watch someone with an intermediate loop get frustrated at another player chop blocking his loop to win the point and then give up the game because of it. It is however fantastic to watch players like Joo play an attacker like Timo and see him run in after a beautiful chop to loop kill the ball so that the Attacker can't return it.
 
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Oh not not this again.

That's what I thought when I read your final post, Mr. RicharD.:p Except...

It is however fantastic to watch players like Joo play an attacker like Timo and see him run in after a beautiful chop to loop kill the ball so that the Attacker can't return it.

On which we agree completely.

You're a strange man, Mr. RicharD, because IMO the things you say, are sometimes contradictory. I'm not going to open that debate again, because it will lead to nothing and we've already did that, didn't we? I wished, however, that we could meet one day. I'm pretty sure all pip isues would be cleared then.
 
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It was a bunch of miscommunication Lorre. I wasn't properly communicating in text and with so many different people with different languages barriers I didn't conduct myself properly which I take full responsibility to. I have said this before, but I personally don't have any problems with Pips. I like to use them to an extent and I enjoy playing against them because as Carl has said it helps to improve one's game. What the whole conversation was meant to be started upon was that Pips and deceptive rubbers already retain events solely to themselves such as the hardbat, sandpaper, and even LP events that I've been to or heard about from other players of other countries.

What I was tired of was the fact that inverted players that are frustrated from these rubbers choose to complain and bash upon them rather than solve the problem. And by solving the problem I recommended that an inverted only event be held in one's local tournaments. Because let's all be honest the most nastiest thing to witness at a tournament is that particular player who just complains about people and their deceptive rubbers neither giving credit nor acknowledgment at their particular skill set.

I've stated my opinion on pips players and their skill levels and also the common trait of raising one's level of play by using said rubbers. While not a generalized statement what I had meant was that simply said it does take a different type of skill to use pips, but one that I feel requires less when compared to inverted rubbers as by definition not by personal achievement. They are by definition unable to achieve certain shots such as top spin, no spin, under spin or side spin as inverted rubbers are able to do. The pips generally must sacrifice one aspect in order to maximize the other while inverted requires the skillset, but retains the ability to produce all spins.

So not to start anything else again, but yes I would have to say that we definitely need to play sometime. I'm still trying lose my college weight, but I am steadily getting back down to where I would like to be at having lost 20 pounds this year.

Happy Holidays to all and let's all grow our TT clubs this winter by inviting people more often. And to any that wish to learn of an incentive program that I'm developing to provide extra income for the club let me know via PM.
 
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It was a bunch of miscommunication Lorre. I wasn't properly communicating in text and with so many different people with different languages barriers I didn't conduct myself properly which I take full responsibility to. I have said this before, but I personally don't have any problems with Pips. I like to use them to an extent and I enjoy playing against them because as Carl has said it helps to improve one's game. What the whole conversation was meant to be started upon was that Pips and deceptive rubbers already retain events solely to themselves such as the hardbat, sandpaper, and even LP events that I've been to or heard about from other players of other countries.

What I was tired of was the fact that inverted players that are frustrated from these rubbers choose to complain and bash upon them rather than solve the problem. And by solving the problem I recommended that an inverted only event be held in one's local tournaments. Because let's all be honest the most nastiest thing to witness at a tournament is that particular player who just complains about people and their deceptive rubbers neither giving credit nor acknowledgment at their particular skill set.

I've stated my opinion on pips players and their skill levels and also the common trait of raising one's level of play by using said rubbers. While not a generalized statement what I had meant was that simply said it does take a different type of skill to use pips, but one that I feel requires less when compared to inverted rubbers as by definition not by personal achievement. They are by definition unable to achieve certain shots such as top spin, no spin, under spin or side spin as inverted rubbers are able to do. The pips generally must sacrifice one aspect in order to maximize the other while inverted requires the skillset, but retains the ability to produce all spins.

So not to start anything else again, but yes I would have to say that we definitely need to play sometime. I'm still trying lose my college weight, but I am steadily getting back down to where I would like to be at having lost 20 pounds this year.

Happy Holidays to all and let's all grow our TT clubs this winter by inviting people more often. And to any that wish to learn of an incentive program that I'm developing to provide extra income for the club let me know via PM.

I'm glad it was all a miscommunication and I agree with what you've said in this post. BTW, I'm still trying to lose weight myself...:p

Can you PM me about that incentive program? I'm quite curious about that.
 
says Spin and more spin.
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I have been thinking about something related to this thread for a while. Sorry to wake the issue back up, but I do think this has been a good discussion worth engaging in. So in the Hard Bat era there was this phenomenon that people realized that if you were a defensive player and mainly chopped the ball, you could chop and chop and wait for the other person to make a mistake and then win based on just getting the ball on the table consistently. The result of this is that there was a period in the sport where play was dominated by defensive players. This caused the creation of the expedite rule: http://tabletennis.about.com/od/thelawsoftabletennis/a/expedite.htm

Now, without deceptive rubber, in the hard bat era, where everyone was using pretty much the same equipment, defensive play was still hard to deal with. There is this one place I play at where where most of the players are sort of low level defensive players. Most of them are using recreational rackets that cost somewhere between $3.00 and $10.00. Some of them have something like what you would get from ZeroPong: http://zeropong.com/home.php?cat=249 which would be a step up from the Hard Bats and the Halex rackets the rest use. Most of these players are defensive players. Most of the offensive players who think they are good are unable to consistently return the underspin and the changes of spin that the defensive players are dealing. They do not know how to loop underspin yet or they do not do it well enough. Many people who start playing offensively there, end up switching to a defensive style of play because they learn that they cannot win against the "better" players by playing offensively and see that most of the "better" players there are simply cutting the ball over and over again. When a solid looper shows up and knows how to attack those underspin shots well enough, the "better" players at this place usually lose but there are not that many decent club type players that would want to play at this venue for many reasons, from lighting to lack of competition, to the fact that, if you play there, if you play someone who can get some of your shots back they are always going to be a defensive style player.

What is the point of what I am saying? It has been said that Pips Out and Anti Spin make it so that someone can win more games against higher level and better trained players without the player actually developing their game more. And what I am saying is that defensive play that is at your level is always hard to deal with because it is deceptive and you have to work hard for points and since the spin that is coming at you from a defensive player is probably changing consistently, you have to keep on your toes regardless of what kind of setup the opponent has. Unless you are at a higher level then the defensive player you are playing, defensive play presents a challenge.

However, at the highest levels of play, it is very very hard for a defensive player to get up to the level of the top offensive players. But Still Joo Se Hyuk and Chen Weixing still get matches ever so often from players in the top 10. I saw a match some time last year where Timo Boll lost to Chen Weixing. So defensive play is a real challenge to deal with but that does not say anything about the skill level of a defensive player. A defensive player who is ranked #38 in the world is a player who is ranked #38 in the world. A defensive player with a USATT rating of 1850 is a player with an 1850 rating they earned that with the techniques that they use.

And I for one, and always happy to play against defensive players because, to me it is fun, and it presents a challenge that I like that is different than just playing another offensive player. And because I can see that when I play a defensive player, my skills as an offensive player improve.

Since I reopened this thread with this post above, I would be interested in hearing comments on the topic that defensive play is effective regardless of what rubbers you use and a good defensive player who can slow the game down with smooth rubbers can mess up players who are offensive players without even having the need for deceptive rubbers. That, until you reach a certain level of play, defensive styles are quite effective at keeping offensive players from being able to attack effectively.
 
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Since I reopened this thread with this post above, I would be interested in hearing comments on the topic that defensive play is effective regardless of what rubbers you use and a good defensive player who can slow the game down with smooth rubbers can mess up players who are offensive players without even having the need for deceptive rubbers. That, until you reach a certain level of play, defensive styles are quite effective at keeping offensive players from being able to attack effectively.

Hm well, it is true that you not really need pips for defensive style of play. I know that because one of the member who play with us always either do a block or a chop when I loop/drive to him. Although part of the reason is he is not young anymore (90% of the player are over 35-60s lol). But the rubber he used before were donic baracuda, then now is yasaka mark V. I think he only spend about few game days then totally adapt into the feel of switching to different rubber.

At least to me, defensive play requires a very good sense of touch. Because some other player when they try to chop an incoming ball, the ball would always fly around, since they just always think about "chop with hard and hard and very very hard". I think I always has a very good time when we just practice some drill with each other. I practice my consistency of my loop from underspin ball while he practice his chopping on an incoming topspin ball. But sometimes I feel bad to him to because when the ball is coming with lots of backspin and very low trajectory, I had to loop the ball back in the way that I'm not really able to control the speed of the ball and he just could not chase up with the speed of ball
 
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i use my pips to create a more attacking play. With inverted rubber i tend to use my backhand only for chopping and blocking (some pushing). Now i have short pips. I use short pips to stay close to the table and use active blocks and i like to drive backspin balls. The best thing about the short pips is opening short servs or pushes. I try to semi spin these balls (when they are short). I dont know what to do with long balls on my backhand (i like to use my forehand instead of backhand in this situation, and i can be blocked out sometimes, this hurts :p).
 
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Since I reopened this thread with this post above, I would be interested in hearing comments on the topic that defensive play is effective regardless of what rubbers you use and a good defensive player who can slow the game down with smooth rubbers can mess up players who are offensive players without even having the need for deceptive rubbers. That, until you reach a certain level of play, defensive styles are quite effective at keeping offensive players from being able to attack effectively.

You can play defensive with inverted, but the defensive play will be more of blocking/lobbing, based on topspin in contrary to pips play which is based on backspin. Effective chopping with inverted is really hard to do on a fast high spin ball and will never reach the backspin pips create against this kind of ball. It is also harder to slow down the game with inverted.
 
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Pipsout is it going to vanish ? or ban? and its cosequence if banned ?

Dear friends I woul like to know weather the pips out and anti rubbers will be banned or is it yet to be banned, if it is banned what will happen to the players using pips out will there be sufficient time to change over or not participate in competation any time in the coming years.

If theittfi ban the pips out & anti rubbers then what will be the status of the game . Will there be justification to ban the anti rubbers in internationsl and local tournment.
 
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Dear friends I woul like to know weather the pips out and anti rubbers will be banned or is it yet to be banned, if it is banned what will happen to the players using pips out will there be sufficient time to change over or not participate in competation any time in the coming years.

If theittfi ban the pips out & anti rubbers then what will be the status of the game . Will there be justification to ban the anti rubbers in internationsl and local tournment.

They won't be banned. Where did you hear that rumour?
 
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Lorre really good posts, excellent points of view and I really respect the time and effort you have put in to responding.

However I would say this inverted progressive players who play expansive table tennis don't need pips/anti players we can get along just fine without them.

It is the pips/anti players who need the offensive players to validate their approach to the game.
 
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Lorre really good posts, excellent points of view and I really respect the time and effort you have put in to responding.

However I would say this inverted progressive players who play expansive table tennis don't need pips/anti players we can get along just fine without them.

It is the pips/anti players who need the offensive players to validate their approach to the game.

But we don't need inverted players to validate our approach to the game. When playing pips/anti against each other you still have a match with long rallies. Besides, a modern defender has an attacking side (even two if you count twiddling) that can be used to play a defense-offense match. If any it makes the game longer and more exciting than two inverted players playing sets in which the point is already over after the third ball exchange.
 
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