Playing to Win vs Playing Your Own Game – Mental Crisis!?

[Danttgeek]

I am really wondering what everyone thinks about this and what advice you have for me.

It's a bit of a weird topic, not about technique, but game philosophy.

So I was coached by someone who wins a lot in a recent match.

My game is topspin attack and do pretty well, even against ‘much better’ players much to their dismay. However, I was playing against a teenager who is very consistent and seems to be able to return my attacks, and when he got a weaker ball was able to put the ball away very strongly – in other words, he was beating me at my own game.

The advice was, keep pushing, push short to the forehand, vary it. Sure enough, when I did this I ended up winning fairly easily. But everytime I opened up or engaged in topspin open rally, I lost.

Thing is, I kept trying to open up and attack and sure enough lost the next game. Then I played push push until I get a weak ball to kill, or a way to play a strange push like a no-spin or side-spin to force an error and I started to win again. But I really felt uncomfortable playing this – like I’m winning but hating myself – hehehe.

Of course I want to win, but it was such a different and weak way of playing, I felt a lot of resistance. In the end, I played ‘wrong’ and lost in the 5th.
I walked away feeling discombobulated because I was humbled to have to realise that more and more people are simply stronger than me in the topspin game now in the higher division, but also that I struggled to do ‘whatever it takes to win’

It feels so different winning by making others make mistakes compared to beating them.

Does anyone else struggle with this?

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

everyone struggles against stronger players.

and everyone except perhaps Ma Long or Zhang Jike has at least someone playing better than him.

i don't see your point

 

[Gozo Aruna]

I am really wondering what everyone thinks about this and what advice you have for me.

It's a bit of a weird topic, not about technique, but game philosophy.

So I was coached by someone who wins a lot in a recent match.

My game is topspin attack and do pretty well, even against ‘much better’ players much to their dismay. However, I was playing against a teenager who is very consistent and seems to be able to return my attacks, and when he got a weaker ball was able to put the ball away very strongly – in other words, he was beating me at my own game.

The advice was, keep pushing, push short to the forehand, vary it. Sure enough, when I did this I ended up winning fairly easily. But everytime I opened up or engaged in topspin open rally, I lost.

Thing is, I kept trying to open up and attack and sure enough lost the next game. Then I played push push until I get a weak ball to kill, or a way to play a strange push like a no-spin or side-spin to force an error and I started to win again. But I really felt uncomfortable playing this – like I’m winning but hating myself – hehehe.

Of course I want to win, but it was such a different and weak way of playing, I felt a lot of resistance. In the end, I played ‘wrong’ and lost in the 5th.
I walked away feeling discombobulated because I was humbled to have to realise that more and more people are simply stronger than me in the topspin game now in the higher division, but also that I struggled to do ‘whatever it takes to win’

It feels so different winning by making others make mistakes compared to beating them.

Does anyone else struggle with this?

You think too much unnecessary stuff...

TT is a designed game. Game exploit the weakness of opponent all the time within the framework of a set of rules. That is all to it. Nothing more, nothing less.

What you are confused with is athleticism: faster, higher & heavier.

 

[PhoenixTT]

It feels so different winning by making others make mistakes compared to beating them.

Does anyone else struggle with this?

I never win, so it's not a struggle for me.

But seriously, I totally understand what you're asking. Maybe if you accept that tactics is as much a part of the game as technique, and that pushing is as much a valid technique as attacking that would help. Practice your pushing so it's at professional level and something you are proud of. Simon Gauzy, Dmitri Original (LOL) would both rather be attacking, but they lob if they have to.

 

[pingpongpaddy]

I am really wondering what everyone thinks about this and what advice you have for me.

It's a bit of a weird topic, not about technique, but game philosophy.

So I was coached by someone who wins a lot in a recent match.

My game is topspin attack and do pretty well, even against ‘much better’ players much to their dismay. However, I was playing against a teenager who is very consistent and seems to be able to return my attacks, and when he got a weaker ball was able to put the ball away very strongly – in other words, he was beating me at my own game.

The advice was, keep pushing, push short to the forehand, vary it. Sure enough, when I did this I ended up winning fairly easily. But everytime I opened up or engaged in topspin open rally, I lost.

Thing is, I kept trying to open up and attack and sure enough lost the next game. Then I played push push until I get a weak ball to kill, or a way to play a strange push like a no-spin or side-spin to force an error and I started to win again. But I really felt uncomfortable playing this – like I’m winning but hating myself – hehehe.

Of course I want to win, but it was such a different and weak way of playing, I felt a lot of resistance. In the end, I played ‘wrong’ and lost in the 5th.
I walked away feeling discombobulated because I was humbled to have to realise that more and more people are simply stronger than me in the topspin game now in the higher division, but also that I struggled to do ‘whatever it takes to win’

It feels so different winning by making others make mistakes compared to beating them.

Does anyone else struggle with this?

hi dantt
You have to realise that the reason champions are champions is that they have the shots, the tactics, and the will to use all those tools, as necessary to win. world champ Stellan Bengtsson, was asked in an interview, what his weakness had been and his reply was that he was at least solid in all areas of the game, and that quality was essential to being a champ.
if you want to win you need to have the ordinary skills as well as the big shots
It seems that your opponent did whatever it took to win- he made you make mistakes which is the sign of a strong player. You on the other hand deserved to lose.

I. don't say this to hurt your feelings, but until you learn to take the proper. lessons from defeat you will find it difficult to improve

 

[TTFrenzy]

I am really wondering what everyone thinks about this and what advice you have for me.

It's a bit of a weird topic, not about technique, but game philosophy.

So I was coached by someone who wins a lot in a recent match.

My game is topspin attack and do pretty well, even against ‘much better’ players much to their dismay. However, I was playing against a teenager who is very consistent and seems to be able to return my attacks, and when he got a weaker ball was able to put the ball away very strongly – in other words, he was beating me at my own game.

The advice was, keep pushing, push short to the forehand, vary it. Sure enough, when I did this I ended up winning fairly easily. But everytime I opened up or engaged in topspin open rally, I lost.

Thing is, I kept trying to open up and attack and sure enough lost the next game. Then I played push push until I get a weak ball to kill, or a way to play a strange push like a no-spin or side-spin to force an error and I started to win again. But I really felt uncomfortable playing this – like I’m winning but hating myself – hehehe.

Of course I want to win, but it was such a different and weak way of playing, I felt a lot of resistance. In the end, I played ‘wrong’ and lost in the 5th.
I walked away feeling discombobulated because I was humbled to have to realise that more and more people are simply stronger than me in the topspin game now in the higher division, but also that I struggled to do ‘whatever it takes to win’

It feels so different winning by making others make mistakes compared to beating them.

Does anyone else struggle with this?

1. winning is not about delivering a fancy topspin rally, who ever gets to 11 points first, wins. simple as that

2. if you want to beat a topspin player who is better than you in topspins then be prepared to get your ego crushed. And after that you need to have the patience to do a zillion drills.

Would you get into a FH topspin rally against ma long? No.

Would you play a weak ball to the BH of FZD or zhang jike? No again. When a player is better than you even if it is 1 % better or 95 % better, he will still win the point when you play them to their strength. So why the hell are you worrying about this topspin rally when you know yourself the kid is better than you.

Improving your technique and winning are two different things most of the time.

 

[Danttgeek]

Thanks for your comments all.

Some may have not understood my point.

My point was that I had the skill to win, when I pushed consistently, varied it, and then attacked a weak ball I won pretty consistently.

However, I just found it hard to stick to this way of playing - somehow, it felt bad to play like this instead of my normal game of opening up and attacking. I struggled to find the discipline and, frankly, to find the joy of winning the points this way.

I wonder if anyone can relate.

 

[Tyce]

Yeah sure, there is always that opponent where you can only win by playing a horrible game.
Either do it and move on, or play how you want and move on. Don't linger on these games.
Go and find a partner to play some of those attack balls you love after the game, that helps you reset.
Honestly it's just a matter of choice. Do you choose points or style? (and the answer can vary from game to game)

 

[Dominikk85]

My take is ideally you want to use your strengths and play your own game, most of the time that will lead to success if you are the better player or at least at the same level.

However if you get beaten at your own game you obviously need to change something or you will lose.

So my plan A would be trying to win with my own game but if that doesn't work you need a plan B.

Of course if the opponent is clearly better nothing might work. In that case you might just as well treat it as a free practice session and just practice what you want to practice regardless of the result rather than trying to fool around to maybe change the set score from 11-4 to 11-6 at best.

 

[NextLevel]

Once you are at a level where you can play all the shots reasonably well, no one talks about winning with only attacking, some players are better attackers because they haven't built other parts of their game. If you think that you should beat someone at their own strength but you are not better at it than they are, good luck.

Recently I reviewed some of my matches, I win a lot of points on serve return errors from my opponents, I should be winning with chiquita and proper third ball, should I not? I am kidding, I just want to win, if it takes pushing and blocking because the opponent is too good at countering for me to open to them, I will do it. Maybe if they could open better, maybe their counter would suck more too, TT is about developing many ways to play opponents or to have an overwhelming way that wins no matter the opponent. Both are viable as long as you win.

 

[Amayzde]

I am really wondering what everyone thinks about this and what advice you have for me.

It's a bit of a weird topic, not about technique, but game philosophy.

So I was coached by someone who wins a lot in a recent match.

My game is topspin attack and do pretty well, even against ‘much better’ players much to their dismay. However, I was playing against a teenager who is very consistent and seems to be able to return my attacks, and when he got a weaker ball was able to put the ball away very strongly – in other words, he was beating me at my own game.

The advice was, keep pushing, push short to the forehand, vary it. Sure enough, when I did this I ended up winning fairly easily. But everytime I opened up or engaged in topspin open rally, I lost.

Thing is, I kept trying to open up and attack and sure enough lost the next game. Then I played push push until I get a weak ball to kill, or a way to play a strange push like a no-spin or side-spin to force an error and I started to win again. But I really felt uncomfortable playing this – like I’m winning but hating myself – hehehe.

Of course I want to win, but it was such a different and weak way of playing, I felt a lot of resistance. In the end, I played ‘wrong’ and lost in the 5th.
I walked away feeling discombobulated because I was humbled to have to realise that more and more people are simply stronger than me in the topspin game now in the higher division, but also that I struggled to do ‘whatever it takes to win’

It feels so different winning by making others make mistakes compared to beating them.

Does anyone else struggle with this?

This is something lots of people experience. Especially the just keep pushing and don't attack is a common go-to strategy when someone gets outplayed in their own game, and it might feel awfully boring and wrong to win like this.

I have 2 answers to this:
1. Winning is winning, it doesn't matter how.

If you really want to win most matches, you have to adjust your game according to the opponent you are playing. You can't beat every player by playing the exact same game. And remember that matches are won by making the least mistakes, not necessarily by the player who hits most forehands.

2. You need to have multiple ways of playing your game to use against different opponents.

So if you are an attacking player, you should be able to attack with different spin, different speed and placement. Knowing which ball you can attack, and which of those you should actuallt attack. Find the ones where you can still play your own game, and not get outmatched by your opponent.

Like @TTFrenzy mentioned, would you challenge Ma Long fh to fh, or Fan Zhendong bh to bh? This relates to something else I hear often: "I rather lose while playing great (often against better opponents), then winning by playing defensively (often against more equal opponents)".

Well guess what? The better player will often let you play your own game, because they will probably beat you in it. And you might get some great rallies out of it and feel like you are playing amazing, but you are not winning the match. You are playing the game that your opponent will win.

 

[yamagata]

I totally understand your feelings - even if my experience with similar thoughts and tendencies come from a totally different game. I have only one table tennis practice session under my belt.

I think you see other values in life than just winning. I believe that you like other people to find as much joy and success in life and table tennis as yourself. I guess that you wanted to test yourself and see if you could make small adjustments to overcome the opponent playing "your" topspin game. You didn't find the key this time, nothing wrong with that!

You might have done this young fellow a disservice though. Now he might feel cocky about his game, but will loose heavily to the next pusher he meets. Maybe next game will leave him in tears.

My advice is that you make up your mind BEFORE the next match you play. That way you might prevent conflicting thinking during the match.

 

[vanjr]

I totally understand and have chosen the path of ugly wins over pretty losses. But it is my choice and you may not want to go that route. I am 60 years old, moderately overweight. I will never beat a good 25 year old player by out top spinning them or playing all out offense. I MIGHT have chance by mixing up short and long, using LP, and occasionally hitting a FH winner.

 

[turbozed]

If your 'A game' is topspin attack, that's fine. But think of it as a tool instead of an identity.

Having a plan B and even a plan C is a good thing. They are all still part of 'your game.' It seems like your 'B game' of pushing was stronger than your opponent.

TT is complex. You can choose to spend all your time upgrading your 'A game' but the rest of yoru game will suffer. Maybe take this experience as a learning lesson about relying too much on one tool in the kit. You've seen how it can backfire. Someone will be able to exploit your weak points like you did to your opponent.

 

[banbekas]

If you want to play to have fun, don't care about win and lose, then play your own game. You get happiness that way and it's what matters the most.
If you enjoy the feeling and the rush of winning against tougher opponents, then you play to win. Win ugly, scrappy, etc.

Since I play to win, TT is tough but for sport purpose I think gym and martial arts are better, I don't care if I have to play ugly.

 

[Danttgeek]

If your 'A game' is topspin attack, that's fine. But think of it as a tool instead of an identity.

Having a plan B and even a plan C is a good thing. They are all still part of 'your game.' It seems like your 'B game' of pushing was stronger than your opponent.

TT is complex. You can choose to spend all your time upgrading your 'A game' but the rest of yoru game will suffer. Maybe take this experience as a learning lesson about relying too much on one tool in the kit. You've seen how it can backfire. Someone will be able to exploit your weak points like you did to your opponent.

Maybe it's more helpful to have an identity of being a multi-faceted player.

I have often wondered about a b-game - started to include some chopping which often disturbs some players, but struggling to capitlise off their weak returns (it's a new shot to approach the table quickly and smash a high push away for a winner - seem to be missing these a lot)

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Thanks for your comments all.

Some may have not understood my point.

My point was that I had the skill to win, when I pushed consistently, varied it, and then attacked a weak ball I won pretty consistently.

However, I just found it hard to stick to this way of playing - somehow, it felt bad to play like this instead of my normal game of opening up and attacking. I struggled to find the discipline and, frankly, to find the joy of winning the points this way.

I wonder if anyone can relate.

the question is, do you want to play fancy shots, or do you want to win.

there is nothing wrong playing fancy shots when the ball lands on.
but what is the use of 1 ball on, and then 3 balls off.

maybe your fancy shots isn't as strong as you think it is, else it would be 3 on and 1 off, and you would have won.

then, I would move over to, so your game is all 1 dimensional....?
higher level players are more complete.,

 

[SrSTT]

.....I wonder if anyone can relate.

I think i understand where you are coming from. For me, it boils down to playing to win or playing to have fun. And yes folks, winning is more fun for me too but I am speaking about how i approach my matches,

Decades ago, i played to win at all costs (within the rules). I was an intense competitor and frankly, something of an ass to be around. Then life happened and i was away from the game for a Lot of years, When i came back, i found that beating people, even those who were maybe a bit better than me, didnt give me the satisfaction that it used to. I found that just playing to enjoy the camaraderie, teaching/coaching(casual, not paid), exercise, and self-improvement was simply more fun than playing with a 'win no matter what' attitude. I guess i just got old.

Like you, i LOVE a good topspin aggressive game. I play that way even if i know it will cost me the match. And i rarely come away from any match with anything but a smile. (unless i played poorly, then dont sit near me).

 

[Brs]

Literally everyone goes through this same phase. Here it's usually around 1200 -1500 usatt. When you have started to loop, but your loop is weak, and/or inconsistent, or you don't have the balance and technique to string together two or three loops vs block.

During this period you lose some matches to people who don't attempt anything, only push and block. It could be because they are way better than you, and saving energy for other matches. But often it is because they know they can win a lot if they let the other guy make 11 errors every game.

The solution is to approach each match individually. Decide *beforehand* if this is a practice match or an important competition. Don't change in the middle!

If it is a practice match then you play your 'A' game no matter how it goes. Or whatever else you want to practice against this guy - could be a certain serve or receive you are working on. In the immortal words of Brian Pace "Nobody cares how many practice matches you win."

But if it is a real comp [something totally determined by you] then you play to win. Nothing else but to win. Winning is also a skill. You have to practice that too. If pushing, blocking, chopping wins you points, then you have to do that. It's an exercise in problem-solving, and you better be very quick. Focus on the opponent more than on yourself. What receives give him trouble, what serves? Where is his middle, which side is dominant, what is his go-to play at 9-9? All this stuff you have to train yourself to pick up in real time with an unknown opponent.

Your goal shouldn't always be to win, you won't develop as fast. But it can't *never* be to win either. Then you are playing the game of Perfect-O (from Inner Game of Tennis) instead of ping-pong.