Rubber properties understanding

[spinner24]

Hello experts,
I want to know the meaning of following terms regarding rubber properties.

1. Tackiness - I know it means stickiness but exactly in which strokes does tackiness helps? more tackiness means more what (speed/spin/ powerful backspin)??
2. Throw angle - I know it means the arc that ball created after hitting. Does it means that more throw angle means the ability to easily loop the backspin ball??
3. Gears - I have no idea what gears are...
4. sponge hardness/softness - In which strokes does this help? hard rubber creates more speed or spin?

I really appreciate your help.

Thank you.

 

[Airoc]

in which strokes does tackiness helps?

Basically, it helps to create spin. BUT - and there is always a BUT in table tennis - the more spin you can create, the more sensitive to incoming spin you´ll be. Defenders like tacky rubbers, but all the top Chinese players play extremely offensive and also use tacky rubbers.

Does it means that more throw angle means the ability to easily loop the backspin ball??

In theory, yes. The higher the arc, the bigger the chances your ball will fly over the net, not into it.
However, don´t be fooled by this too much - what you do with your hand has a hell of a lot more influence than any rubber characteristics.

3. Gears - I have no idea what gears are...

Basically the variety of shots you can create, technique provided. You may want a rubber that is controllable in short game but very powerful in open game, and you may want to control everything in between by little variations in your stroke.

hard rubber creates more speed or spin?

More spin if the technique is good, the timing is good, the stroke is perfect. It is easier to create spin with a soft rubber if you´re not always spot on in your timing as the rubber will allow a certain margin of error. If you have a good armstroke and timing you will benefit more from a harder rubber.

Hope this helps.

 

[spinner24]

Thank you so much. This is the easiest explanation so far. So couple of more questions for you

Basically, it helps to create spin. BUT - and there is always a BUT in table tennis - the more spin you can create, the more sensitive to incoming spin you´ll be. Defenders like tacky rubbers, but all the top Chinese players play extremely offensive and also use tacky rubbers.

With my mark V pendulum serve, opponent's returns are really heavy that I am unable to loop. So if I serve with tacky rubber on forehand and use tensor rubber on backhand to loop would solve my problem, right?

 

[Xanderngzien]

Basically, it helps to create spin. BUT - and there is always a BUT in table tennis - the more spin you can create, the more sensitive to incoming spin you´ll be. Defenders like tacky rubbers, but all the top Chinese players play extremely offensive and also use tacky rubbers.



In theory, yes. The higher the arc, the bigger the chances your ball will fly over the net, not into it.
However, don´t be fooled by this too much - what you do with your hand has a hell of a lot more influence than any rubber characteristics.



Basically the variety of shots you can create, technique provided. You may want a rubber that is controllable in short game but very powerful in open game, and you may want to control everything in between by little variations in your stroke.



More spin if the technique is good, the timing is good, the stroke is perfect. It is easier to create spin with a soft rubber if you´re not always spot on in your timing as the rubber will allow a certain margin of error. If you have a good armstroke and timing you will benefit more from a harder rubber.

Hope this helps.

1. Tackiness : But why do people say that chinese rubbers are "dead" and insensiitvie to spin?

3: also how do people even measure gears from scale of 1 to 10 in tabletennis sites like ttdb??

 

[Archosaurus]

No, tacky rubber does not generate more spin. Where the hell has this idea come from? Maybe in the hands of a very good player it has more potential, but mechanically it generates LESS spin, because more energy is used to get the ball off the bat in the first place. That is why people have recommended non-tacky rubber to me, because I will benefit more from more spin.

However you get more control at the expense of speed and spin.

 

[TableTennisTom]

I'm going to go slightly off-topic, but I found this part of your post quite interesting...

With my mark V pendulum serve, opponent's returns are really heavy that I am unable to loop. So if I serve with tacky rubber on forehand and use tensor rubber on backhand to loop would solve my problem, right?

If I was coaching you, I wouldn't be looking to solve the problem you have by changing rubbers. There are some more fundamental questions you should ask yourself first. Why can your opponent return your serve so well? Are you generating enough spin? Is you serve low over the net? Are you varying your placement? You can do all of this with Mark V rubbers. So the rubber is probably not the problem. It's more likely to be with your service technique and your service strategy.

Secondly, even if you opponent can return your serve well, why can't you play a decent 3rd ball? Is your positioning after your serve good? Are you trying to loop with the correct technique? Again, it's pretty easy to loop with Mark V rubber, so rubber is probably not the problem. You may need to look at your technique first before changing your rubber.

We have all been there. Something in our game is not working and we think a simple solution is to change rubbers. But 99 times out of 100, the issue is to do with technique, tactics, footwork etc, not with equipment.

 

[Airoc]

Maybe in the hands of a very good player it has more potential

Probably an even better way to say it. It is harder to generate spin, but if you do it you´ll benefit. I also wouldn´t want to topspin with tacky Chinese rubbers, but if the contact point is good enough eventually you will benefit.

 

[romanzdk]

On Tacky Rubbers..

https://thoughtsontabletennis.wordpress.com/2015/08/20/on-tacky-rubbers/

and Throw Angle..

https://thoughtsontabletennis.wordpress.com/2015/09/07/throw-angle/

 

[Airoc]

1. Tackiness : But why do people say that chinese rubbers are "dead" and insensiitvie to spin?

Many of them feel dead because they are so hard and lack the catapult associated to modern Japanese or German rubbers. You´ll have to really work them to generate a result.

3: also how do people even measure gears from scale of 1 to 10 in tabletennis sites like ttdb??

Guessing. Fantasizing. Taking the wrong pills ...

Definitive ratings are hard to trust. A "speed 8 of 10" rubber from 1980 will be slower than a "speed 8 of 10" rubber from 2017, but you will still find the old data in the catalogues in direct comparison. So much for things than can be measured.
Anything that can´t be measured is open to guesswork.

 

[Airoc]

On Tacky Rubbers..

https://thoughtsontabletennis.wordpress.com/2015/08/20/on-tacky-rubbers/

and Throw Angle..

https://thoughtsontabletennis.wordpress.com/2015/09/07/throw-angle/

I think all you´ll ever need to know about throw angle is what Paul Drinkhall said:
"When people talk about 'throw angle', it's really hard to rate and you should be aware of anybody that does a review and gives a definite rating for this. The reason is that it depends on your stroke, how you contact the ball, your timing point etc - these are individual things and the bat is in YOUR hand! All I can say is that I always tell people to test the rubbers themselves for this reason following on from any reccomendation. That way you can see how you like the rebound of the rubber and how it suits your style of play."

 

[fais]

Here is another important term not listed, goes somewhat in hand with "gears"

Linear - input to output power is matched. using 10% of your power in a stroke, you expect to extract 10% of power out of the rubber, 20% input yields 20% output, 30% input yields 30% output etc. non linear would be 30% input yields 50% output or something. This (linear) is a desired quality at higher levels because it gives you predictable feedback an more control.

As I said, somewhat in line with gears. Here is a hyperbolic example- say a rubber has 3 gears, theoretically this means up to 30% of your power will only yield 30% output and not less. 30-60% of your power will create fixed 60% output, not less, and anything more will max out the rubber. (Note that this is still technically linear).

Also, another thing to add about lower gears is the bottoming out effect as ball speeds and rally distancesbecome faster and longer. You feel like you are trying to play baseball with a wiffle-bat, it just can't keep up with you. (Doesn't have higher gears).

 

[NextLevel]

I think all you´ll ever need to know about throw angle is what Paul Drinkhall said:
"When people talk about 'throw angle', it's really hard to rate and you should be aware of anybody that does a review and gives a definite rating for this. The reason is that it depends on your stroke, how you contact the ball, your timing point etc - these are individual things and the bat is in YOUR hand! All I can say is that I always tell people to test the rubbers themselves for this reason following on from any reccomendation. That way you can see how you like the rebound of the rubber and how it suits your style of play."

The thoughtsontabletennis article is more illuminating than what Drinkhall said but what he said is practically correct.

 

[Airoc]

The thoughtsontabletennis article is more illuminating than what Drinkhall said but what he said is practically correct.

The point is, in the old days you´d turn to your coach and he´d say "Open/Close the racket more and you´ll land that shot".

Today you turn to bunch of people who have never seen you play - and who you have never seen play ... - and ask them for a rubber with higher/lower throw on a racket they´ve never played.

I like the idea of multiple experiences and explanations, but at the end of the day practice has to be done

 

[Jabugo]

I think all you´ll ever need to know about throw angle is what Paul Drinkhall said:
"When people talk about 'throw angle', it's really hard to rate and you should be aware of anybody that does a review and gives a definite rating for this. The reason is that it depends on your stroke, how you contact the ball, your timing point etc - these are individual things and the bat is in YOUR hand! All I can say is that I always tell people to test the rubbers themselves for this reason following on from any reccomendation. That way you can see how you like the rebound of the rubber and how it suits your style of play."

And this is why everyone should EJ to some degree. What's working for one person may not work that well for another depending upon player physique, stroke form, etc. If you have big hands, yes, you can adjust to a tiny handle. But why struggle needlessly?

 

[NextLevel]

The point is, in the old days you´d turn to your coach and he´d say "Open/Close the racket more and you´ll land that shot".

Today you turn to bunch of people who have never seen you play - and who you have never seen play ... - and ask them for a rubber with higher/lower throw on a racket they´ve never played.

I like the idea of multiple experiences and explanations, but at the end of the day practice has to be done

This is true, but misses the point, especially in an era where over the table strokes have taken on greater significance.

 

[Archosaurus]

Doesn't it matter A LOT where and how fast you contact the ball anyway? For example with a more side-on stroke you can hit into topspin with a more open angle, as opposed to when you're blocking very heavy topspin and need to close the angle a lot.

So this kind of advice might not be the big picture. I imagine at some point, you just can't simply angle the racket, but need to do something else as well

 

[NextLevel]

Doesn't it matter A LOT where and how fast you contact the ball anyway? For example with a more side-on stroke you can hit into topspin with a more open angle, as opposed to when you're blocking very heavy topspin and need to close the angle a lot.

So this kind of advice might not be the big picture. I imagine at some point, you just can't simply angle the racket, but need to do something else as well

Well, if racket head speed matters, you will see that in thoughtsontabletennis but you will only guess it without knowing it from Drinkhall's statement. And if you tested the rubber but didn't like it, you would have no clue what to change based on Drinkhall's statement but you might with the other article.

 

[brokenball]

Hello experts,
I want to know the meaning of following terms regarding rubber properties.

1. Tackiness - I know it means stickiness but exactly in which strokes does tackiness helps? more tackiness means more what (speed/spin/ powerful backspin)??

Tackiness doesn't provide more spin except in cases where one is brushing the ball so thinly that it may not grip the rubber. If you aren't to the point where you can brush loop then tackiness will not help. Someone above is right about the force it takes to separate the ball from the rubber may slow the ball down.

2. Throw angle - I know it means the arc that ball created after hitting. Does it means that more throw angle means the ability to easily loop the backspin ball??

I would heed the Drinkhall quote. It is hard to quantify given everyone has different opinions.

3. Gears - I have no idea what gears are...

Neither do I. There is no standard definition or equation for gears.
I suspect people are talking about how linear the response is.

4. sponge hardness/softness - In which strokes does this help? hard rubber creates more speed or spin?

Hardness or softness is not what determines speed or spin. The choice between hard and soft rubbers is a personal preference. Usually something that isn't too extreme will be good.

5. He forgot to mention dwell time.

 

[spinner24]

I'm going to go slightly off-topic, but I found this part of your post quite interesting...



If I was coaching you, I wouldn't be looking to solve the problem you have by changing rubbers. There are some more fundamental questions you should ask yourself first. Why can your opponent return your serve so well? Are you generating enough spin? Is you serve low over the net? Are you varying your placement? You can do all of this with Mark V rubbers. So the rubber is probably not the problem. It's more likely to be with your service technique and your service strategy.

Secondly, even if you opponent can return your serve well, why can't you play a decent 3rd ball? Is your positioning after your serve good? Are you trying to loop with the correct technique? Again, it's pretty easy to loop with Mark V rubber, so rubber is probably not the problem. You may need to look at your technique first before changing your rubber.

We have all been there. Something in our game is not working and we think a simple solution is to change rubbers. But 99 times out of 100, the issue is to do with technique, tactics, footwork etc, not with equipment.

Let me elaborate my point here, so with my mark V when I play with new players, there is rare chance that they will return my serve and even if they do its a loose ball and easy to hit. I am facing problem with whom I play everyday, they kind of have found the way to return my serve with my own spin, when I try to push the third ball....boom ... almost 45 degree deflection...still I learned to push the third ball but by this time my service has turned into push rallies.. (hope your are still with me). So I found an easier way is to put a little bit less spin in my serve hence the third ball becomes easier to hit but then opponent finds it easy to hit my serve or put the ball in a place when I can not attack the third ball.
Now coming to why I am thinking that changing the rubber could be the solution. My friend is using Mark V and Coppa, I have tried his paddle several times. With same heavy pendulum serve with Mark V, Coppa makes it easier to attack the third ball. But in the longer game, Coppa is too fast and not easy to control for me.

 

[bobpuls]

1 Tackines -it helps to do a brush loops with very small contact .... something what is very hard to achieve with only grip on smaller speeds balls . Tackines is making even smaller rebound speeds more slower. But in passive game it create more sensitivity to incoming spin and on aggressive shots it provide less sensitivity to incoming spin . Generally tacky rubbers are not men to be played passively .

3 Gears mean.. what is the scale from the slowest stroke to the full power stroke (some rubbers are so bouncy you have troubles to stay short over the net)... this can be mostly eliminated with good touch in the hand .... generally all off sticky rubbers have more gears.