Run-in between Chuang Chih-Yuan and CTTTA?

says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
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This never gets old. Yet another demonstration that the statement "all other countries are all independent" is naive.

太扯了吧.....桌協到底在幹嘛 ? 擅自剝奪葉伊恬的大滿貫資格只為了逼她打亞青 ???? (This is too much..... What on earth is the [Chinese Taipei] TTA doing? They arbitrarily deprived Yeh Yi-Tian of her [US] Smash qualification just to force her to play in the Asian Youth Championships????)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIagom1v5gQ

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCH...unity?lb=Ugkx2Y1zdlFEOdn3rNJcsbxHipWoEifcgAlJ
💢💢💢這真的太扯了😨😨😡😡
17歲就拿到國手資格
世界排名高居87
台灣新生代最受期待的女子選手之一的葉伊恬
最近捲入了退賽風波
葉伊恬今年的目標是前40名
所以莊智淵與伊恬在6月份規劃了三站成人賽
並且因體力因素跳過6月底的亞青
直接打7月3號開始的美國大滿貫
但是桌協葉秘書長拒絕
理由是黃金計畫法規限制葉伊恬有義務參加亞青
5月22晚,葉秘書長同意了葉伊恬不打亞青
但是也不能打美國大滿貫
莊智淵馬上同意打亞青,想要保住美國大滿貫的資格
但是葉秘書長直接聯絡WTT幫葉伊恬回絕了大滿貫賽的邀請
並由另一位台灣選手遞補葉伊恬的資格
同時發出官方聲明指出
亞青與美國大滿貫時間過於接近
打完亞青趕不上美國開賽
所以建議葉伊恬以亞青為重
莊智淵等教練/家屬團質疑:
1️⃣為什麼桌協能擅自決定葉伊恬的大滿貫資格?桌協可以以法規義務為由強制選手參加亞青,但無權擅自決定選手參加其他比賽的資格。
2️⃣為什麼桌協沒有幫忙跟WTT爭取延後賽程?莊智淵指出他以前有爭取成功過,桌協不以選手參賽利益為主幫忙爭取,還擅自幫忙拒絕參賽,不尊重選手
目前雙方各執一詞,莊智淵已經公開向體育署陳情
還不清楚後續會如何發展
但是桌協啊…..你要為自己的立場辯駁可以,但至少把葉伊恬的名字打對吧😑😑😑
💢💢💢This is really too much😨😨😡😡
She qualified as a national player at the age of 17
Ranked 87th in the world
One of the most anticipated female players of the new generation in Taiwan, Yeh Yi-Tian
Recently, she was involved in a withdrawal dispute
Yeh Yi-Tian's goal this year is to be in the top 40
So Chuang Chih-Yuan and Yi-Tian planned three senior tournaments in June
And due to stamina reasons, they were to skip the Asian Youth Championship at the end of June
And to play the US Smash starting on July 3rd
But Secretary-General Yeh of the [Chinese Taipei] TTA rejected it
The reason was that the Golden Plan regulations stipulated Yeh Yi-Tian's obligation to participate in the Asian Youth Championship
On the evening of May 22, Secretary-General Yeh agreed Yeh Yi-Tian will not play in the Asian Youth Championships
But she cannot play in the US Smash either
Chuang Chih-Yuan immediately agreed to play in the Asian Youth Championships in order to keep her qualification for the US Smash
But Secretary-General Ye contacted WTT directly to reject Ye Yi-Tian's invitation to the Grand Smash
And replaced Ye Yi-Tian’s quota with another Taiwanese player
At the same time, an official statement was issued stating that the Asian Youth Championships and the US Smash were too close in time
She would not be able to catch up with the US Smash after playing in the Asian Youth Championships
So Ye Yi-Tian was advised to focus on the Asian Youth Championships
Chuang Chih-Yuan and other coaches/family members questioned:
1️⃣Why can the [Chinese Taipei] TTA decide Ye Yi-Tian’s Grand Smash qualification without her consent? The [Chinese Taipei] TTA can force players to participate in the Asian Youth Games on the grounds of legal obligations, but it has no right to arbitrarily determine the eligibility of players to participate in other competitions.
2️⃣ Why didn't the [Chinese Taipei] TTA help to fight with WTT to postpone the schedule? Chuang Chih-Yuan pointed out that he had successfully fought for it before. The [Chinese Taipei] TTA did not help fight for the interests of the players, but also helped to refuse to participate without consent, which was disrespectful to the players
Currently, both parties have their own opinions. Chuang Chih-Yuan has publicly reported to the Sports Administration
It is not clear how the follow-up will develop.
But the [Chinese Taipei] TTA.....you can defend your position, but at least get Ye Yi-Tian's name right😑😑😑
 
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"all other countries are all independent" is naive.
so you telling me that chuang and yeh trains in the national training center and are allocated national team coaches as coaches?
they operate independently so they are two candidates that supports my claim on "running independent". In fact, they are the best candidates within Taiwan to help justify my point - so thanks for doing that, haha

now run ins with national federation happens all the time. There is politics every where.
that doesn't mean my statement is wrong
good luck in trying to spin it, but seriously, you know so little yet you try to act like you know a lot. You could trick the unknown, but with the known, it isn't working on TTD when I am around.
 
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Discussion over at PTT.

[新聞] 莊智淵怒了!子弟兵葉伊恬受委屈 痛陳桌
https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/tabletennis/M.1748767361.A.063.html
Re: [新聞] 莊智淵怒了!子弟兵葉伊恬受委屈 痛陳桌
https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/tabletennis/M.1748783719.A.107.html
Re: [新聞] 莊智淵怒了!子弟兵葉伊恬受委屈 痛陳桌
https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/tabletennis/M.1748785248.A.594.html
Re: [新聞] 莊智淵怒了!子弟兵葉伊恬受委屈 痛陳桌
https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/tabletennis/M.1748776033.A.FE3.html

[問題] 桌球協會最新回應
https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/tabletennis/M.1748796811.A.802.html
Re: [問題] 桌球協會最新回應
https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/tabletennis/M.1748801439.A.958.html

Re: [問題] 桌球協會最新回應
https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/tabletennis/M.1748848130.A.236.html

Re: [問題] 桌球協會最新回應
https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/tabletennis/M.1748867914.A.A92.html

[新聞] 6/3桌協最新聲明
https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/tabletennis/M.1748931689.A.79E.html
 
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says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
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so you telling me that chuang and yeh trains in the national training center and are allocated national team coaches as coaches?
they operate independently so they are two candidates that supports my claim on "running independent". In fact, they are the best candidates within Taiwan to help justify my point - so thanks for doing that, haha

now run ins with national federation happens all the time. There is politics every where.
that doesn't mean my statement is wrong
good luck in trying to spin it, but seriously, you know so little yet you try to act like you know a lot. You could trick the unknown, but with the known, it isn't working on TTD when I am around.
Doesn't matter how you spin it now. As I pointed out at the end of 2024, no one is truly independent when you can't sign up for international competitions all on your own, without the association acting as the man in the middle. The mechanism is simply not there, not even JTTA or HKTTA with their participation in international competitions at your own expense, as you're still representing your association and not yourself.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...es-retirement-from-wtt-ittf.36209/post-500623
Getting your players on the same page doesn't mean controlling them, because the players and their affiliated teams have to get things done through the association. There is clearly a lack of communication among CTTTA and their players, and WTT. U for unprofessional.
 
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https://documents.ittf.sport/sites/default/files/public/2025-02/2025_ITTF_Statutes_clean_version.pdf
3 REGULATIONS FOR
INTERNATIONAL COMPETITIONS

...
3.7 ORGANISATION OF COMPETITIONS
3.7.1 Authority

...
3.7.1.2 Except for Masters events, players from affiliated ITTF member
Associations, when competing internationally, can only participate in ITTF
events, ITTF approved events and ITTF registered events entered through
their Member Association
, as well as in ITTF recognised events entered
through their National Olympic Committee or National Paralympic
Committee respectively. Participation in any other type of event can only be
allowed with the express written permission of the Member Association of
the player or the ITTF
; permission to players will be considered given unless
a specific or general notification is made by the national Association of the
player or the ITTF withholding the permission to participate in an event or
series of events.

3.7.1.3 A player or team may not take part in an international competition if he or
she or it is suspended by his or her or its Association or Continental
Federation.
 
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CTTTA's official statement makes it dead clear that the interests of the association take precedence and Yeh Yi-Tian signed the agreement that clearly stipulated her obligations.

https://www.cttta.org.tw/news_detail.asp?nid=3637
有關取消葉伊恬選手參加美國大滿貫桌球賽乙事,本會聲明如下: 2025/05/31


有關取消葉伊恬選手參加美國大滿貫桌球賽乙事,本會聲明如下:

一、葉伊恬選手目前是「114年度備戰奧林匹克運動會黃金計畫」選手,同時也是「114年19歲組青少年國家代表隊」選手,依國家運動訓練中心訂定之「黃金計畫選手規約同意書」及「黃金計畫選手進/退場與級別調整具體規定」中有凡入選黃金計畫選手有義務代表國家參加世界錦標賽、亞洲錦標賽、世界青少年錦標賽及亞洲青少年錦標賽等4項賽事之規定。另本會所訂之「中華民國桌球協會参加各級國際賽事報名原則」,也有規定:入選綜合性運動賽會或國際單項錦標賽之國家代表隊選手有義務代表國家出賽。

二、2025年亞洲青少年桌球錦標賽(下稱亞青)將於114年6月2 6 日至7月2日在烏茲別克舉行,美國大滿貫桌球比賽(下稱大滿貫)也將於7月3日至7月13日在美國拉斯維加斯舉行,因7月2日亞青結束後時間上已無法趕往美國參加大滿貫賽事,故不得不建議具有参加大滿貫資格之張佑安、郭冠宏、葉伊恬等選手,以代表國家參加亞青為重,捨棄参加大滿貫賽。

三、張佑安、郭冠宏兩位選手之前已接受建議捨棄大滿貫選擇参加亞青,葉伊恬選手則於報名截止日當天才決定参加亞青,協會基於與上述兩位參賽選手之同步考量,最終決定通知大會葉伊恬選手不參加大滿貫賽事,後來由大會遞補我國選手李昱諄参加。

四、因兩項比賽撞期,以國家榮譽優先考量,取消選手参加大滿貫是不得已之決定。本會將吸取本次經驗,邀請專家、學者共商研議謀求對策,透過集思廣益讓選手報名參賽可以再優化。
Regarding the cancellation of Yeh Yi-Tian's participation in the US Smash tournament, the Association makes the following statement: 2025/05/31

Regarding the cancellation of Yeh Yi-Tian's participation in the US Smash tournament, the Association makes the following statement:

1. Yeh Yi-Tian is currently a player of the "115th Annual Olympic Preparation Gold Plan" and is also a player of the "115th U19 Youth National Team". According to the "Gold Plan Player Agreement" and "Gold Plan Player Entry/Exit and Level Adjustment Specific Regulations" formulated by the National Sports Training Center, all players selected for the Gold Plan are obliged to represent the country in 4 events: the World Championships, the Asian Championships, the World Youth Championships and the Asian Youth Championships. In addition, the "Registration Principles for the Chinese Taipei Table Tennis Association to Participate in International Competitions at All Levels" established by the Association also stipulates that players selected for the national team in comprehensive sports competitions or international individual championships are obliged to represent the country in the competition.

2. The 2025 Asian Youth Table Tennis Championships (hereinafter referred to as AY) will be held in Uzbekistan from June 26 to July 2, 2025. The US Smash Table Tennis Competition (hereinafter referred to as the GS) will also be held in Las Vegas, the United States from July 3 to July 13. Since it will be too late to travel to the United States to participate in the GS after the end of the AY on July 2, we had to suggest that players who were eligible to participate in the GS, such as Chang Yu-An, Kuo Guan-Hong, and Yeh Yi-Tian, should give priority to representing the country in the AY and give up participating in the GS.

3. Chang Yu-An and Kuo Guan-Hong had previously accepted the suggestion to give up the GS and choose to participate in the AY, while Yeh Yi-Tian decided to participate in the AY on the day of the entry deadline. Based on the simultaneous considerations of the above two players, the association finally decided to notify the Event Organizer that Yeh Yi-Tian would not participate in the GS. Later, the Event Organizer replaced her with our player Li Yu-Jhun.

4. Due to the conflicting dates of the two competitions, the decision to cancel the players’ participation in the GS was a last resort, with national honor being the priority. The Association will learn from this experience and invite experts and scholars to discuss and seek measures, so that the player entries can be further optimized through brainstorming.
 
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Entering through MA is the regulation, or you want ITTF and WTT to deal directly with the general public too?

have you even been involved with any organization to even suggest that? Haha

Now CTTTA is far from perfect and Chuang is not a saint either.

End of the day, Chuang does his own things and not part of “national group and decision making”. So he is very independent.
And if registration is what you are holding up, then seriously, you are trying to use that ti hold up what CNT is as a team unit that lives together with that of individual units with “together only by registration”, your attempt to link it like that is too funny.

All I can say is CTTTA had been very civil and had not gone to the media of spilling Chuang’s unpopular behavior over the years. Im not getting involved with politics, but you only know half the story and eager to make judgments and stirring directions.
 
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CTTTA's official statement makes it dead clear that the interests of the association take precedence
Taiwan have funding for Olympic and with that continental tournaments. Any individual’s tournament is also supported.
If you use that funding, it does take priority. This is very fair - many countries don’t even have this kind of national funding.

If you dont want to play in youth, then be like Miwa, don’t take up the spot and stopping others by having a chance.

In regards to history, there was once a player who was pretending to be injured during teams event and couldn’t play. And then was training hardcore in the training hall and not resting. And then was all of a sudden uninjured for the individual event that followed the teams event.
People were not happy, but most Taiwanese people wont fight it or stir a fight - we not all wanting to sue or go to the press.

Teams event is national team obligation while individual is your own. And if you take gov funding, there are only few days in a year of participation requirements of teams. This is unlike CNT or event NK where they live together full time, including the non tournament members.

Fact is good to be shared, so we don’t get stuck with half news.

Taiwan have a lot of youth that self fund too, and they are not required or forced to play in teams.
 
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What a bunch of imbeciles.

After a few days of (empty) threats by the 體育署/Sports Administration, these folks have finally realized there is nothing they can do about the Chinese Taipei TTA, which is the only official governing body recognized by the ITTF and hence has the final say. If they decide to disband it, they'd risk shutting the door to the international stage on themselves because no one would recognize a new association given their international status at this point.

It sounds even more funny coming from 三立/Sanlih Entertainment Television, which is pro-DPP.

24小時期限到! 桌協無視體育署"堅不道歉" 不甩署長道歉令! 桌球教練嘆:國際僅認"桌協" "黃金計畫"成枷鎖 唐嘉鴻昔轟獨立性在哪|三立新聞網 SETN.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSEXfqtoLgU
 
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The tide is turning. The whole thing has been escalated to political struggle.

In the latest statement, CTTTA lists 7 reasons behind their decision and action.

桌球/桌協理事提取消葉伊恬參賽7理由 稱遭體育署霸凌
https://udn.com/news/story/7005/8781736
聲明如下:

取消葉伊恬選手參加美國大滿貫賽的理由如下

一、依黃金計畫等相關規定,選手接受政府補助,本來就有代表國家出賽的義務。

二、亞青和美國大滿貫比賽日期撞期,只能選擇一項參加,亞青是代表國家之比賽,大滿貫是個人職業賽,雖有個人積分及獎金,但一位黃金計畫選手受國家栽培,理應以國家榮譽優先代表國家出賽亞青。

三、同樣情形還有其他選手如郭冠宏、張佑安,他們接受打亞青放棄美國大滿貫,只有葉伊恬選手不同意捨棄大滿貫,協會要有一致性的做法。

四、大滿貫報名截止之前需向大會明確表示選手參加與否,如事後請假不被接受,可能發生像之前林昀儒與陳思羽選手遭WTT扣積分影響世界排名之嚴重情形,協會也是在保護選手避免受罰。

五、即時通知大會不參加,可以遞補本國另一選手參加,保障選手參賽權。

六、執行5月8日選訓委員會一致通過決議:不同意4位選手請假不參加亞青。

七、政府的黃金計畫規定的很清楚,選手接受計畫補助,有代表國家參賽的義務,本會只是依法行政,且即時取消參賽也是在保護選手避免被罰。

個人見解

一、主管機關體育署只聽莊智淵教練及選手的一面之詞,就要求桌球協會限期改善及道歉,實屬主管單位的無理要求及霸凌。

二、葉伊恬事先表明要參加美國大滿貫公開賽不參加亞洲盃青少年桌球錦標賽,這是很明確的違反黃金計劃體育署與球員的合約規定,協會才會在5月8日的選訓委員會議決議球員必須依約參加亞洲杯青少年桌球錦標賽。5月28日在協會照開的選訓委員會,莊智淵教練以專項委員列席選訓委員會,莊教練也口頭同意葉伊恬參加亞青賽的4組比賽到亞青杯結束後飛美國參加大滿貫公開賽,協會也應莊教練的要求發函ITTF請求恢復葉伊恬取消的美國大滿貫資格,其他的問題莊教練要直接與ITTF聯絡處理。協會葉國欽秘書長也口頭告知莊教練協會一定會發函請求ITTF恢復葉伊恬的美國大滿貫公開賽的參賽資格。但時間上及決定權在ITTF上能否順利達成無法100%確定,莊教練敲定此事後就離開。

三、事後莊智淵教練又到體育署陳情,一味的咬定桌球協會未經與球員溝通就取消葉伊恬美國大滿貫公開賽,忽視球員的比賽權益。造成現在不可收拾的局面。主管機關要求葉秘書道歉協會改善制度。協會一向遵守法規。為桌球界承上啟下,一方要執行體育署的業務交付的任務目標的達成。一方面要照顧到球員的訓練參賽,其他種種的要求,因此協會職員都要盡心盡力兢兢業業克盡職守。

協會在各方案的推動及執行都公開公正地在審訓委員會議後依會議決議執行葉怡恬事件中的執行也是這樣的程序開會決議執行。個人覺得協會絕無不法也無過失。

四、事件的發生及擴大有其原因

1、體育署主管在政府單位要升級為體育部的前哨獨斷、獨行展現很有魄力的決行個人認為未與協會溝通查證事實的是體育署而非桌球協會。請勿用政治手段處理體育事項。

2、媒體未能平衡報導只單方面採納體育署的新聞稿而未訪問協會的相關人員就自行判定協會的不是,但公理自在人心,作為媒體人應有良心不能隨風轉向。

3、幾位國會議員也一起來撐流量代表你很關心球員的權益,增加你自個聲量,以備時間到來升官發財,請賴政府看看現在的國民黨,水能載舟亦能覆舟。

桌協常務理事

選訓委員 陳信諺(喜樂)謹上 114/6/2
The statement is as follows:

The reasons for canceling Yeh Yi-Tian's participation in the US Smash are as follows:

1. According to the relevant regulations of the Golden Plan, athletes who receive government subsidies have the obligation to represent the country in competitions.

2. The dates of the Asian Youth Championships and the US Smash coincide with each other, so you can only choose to participate in one. The Asian Youth Championships are a competition representing the country, while the Grand Smash is an individual professional competition. Although there are individual [world ranking] points and prize money, a Golden Plan player is nurtured by the country and should represent the country in the Asian Youth Championships with national honors first.

3. There are other players in the same situation, such as Kuo Guan-Hong and Chang Yu-An. They have accepted to play in the Asian Youth Championships and give up the US Smash. Only Yeh Yi-Tian disagrees to give up the Grand Smash. The association should have a consistent approach.

4. Before the entry deadline for the Grand Smash, players must clearly indicate to the Event Organizer whether they will participate or not. If the request for leave is not accepted afterwards, a serious situation may occur as Lin Yun-Ju and Chen Szu-Yu were deducted points by WTT, affecting their world rankings. The association is also protecting the players from being punished.

5. If a player notifies the Event Organizer immediately that he/she will not participate, another player from his/her country may be substituted to ensure the player’s right to participate.

6. Implemented the resolution unanimously adopted by the Selection and Training Committee on May 8: do not agree to the 4 players' request for leave and not participating in the Asian Youth Championships.

7. The government’s Golden Plan clearly stipulates that athletes who accept program subsidies have the obligation to represent the country in competitions. The Association is only administering in accordance with the law, and the immediate cancellation of the participation is also to protect the players from being punished.

Personal opinion

1. The Sports Administration, the supervisory organ, only listened to the one-sided statement of coach Chuang Chih-Yuan and the players and demanded that the Table Tennis Association make improvements and apologize within a certain period of time. This is an unreasonable demand and bullying by the supervisory organ.

2. Yeh Yi-Tian stated in advance that she would participate in the US Smash Open [sic] and not the Asian Cup [sic] Youth Table Tennis Championship. This was a clear violation of the Golden Plan contract between Sports Administration and the player. That is why the association decided at the Selection and Training Committee meeting on May 8 that the player must participate in the Asian Cup [sic] Youth Table Tennis Championship as agreed. On May 28, coach Chuang Chih-Yuan attended the Selection and Training Committee as a special member of the committee. Coach Chuang also verbally agreed that Yeh Yi-Tian would participate in the 4 events of the Asian Youth Championship and fly to the United States to participate in the Grand Smash Open [sic] after the Asian Youth Cup [sic]. At the request of coach Chuang, the association also sent a letter to the ITTF requesting the restoration of Yeh Yi-Tian's cancelled US Smash qualification. Coach Chuang should contact the ITTF directly for other issues. The association's Secretary-General Yeh Kuo-Chin also verbally informed coach Chuang that the association would definitely send a letter requesting the ITTF to restore Yeh Yi-Tian's eligibility to participate in the US Smash Open [sic]. However, the timing and decision-making power rest with the ITTF, whether it would be successful was not 100% certain. Coach Chuang left after finalizing the matter.

3. Afterwards, coach Chuang Chih-Yuan went to the Sports Administration to appeal, insisting that the Table Tennis Association cancelled the Yeh Yi-Tian US Smash Open [sic] without communicating with the player, ignoring the player's rights in the competition. This has led to the current unmanageable situation. The supervisory organ asked Secretary Yeh to apologize and the association to improve its system. The Association has always complied with regulations. To serve as a link between the table tennis community, one party must implement the mission objectives assigned by the Sports Bureau. On the one hand, we have to take care of the players' training and competitions, as well as various other requirements. Therefore, all association staff must do their best and perform their duties conscientiously.

The Association promotes and implements all plans openly and impartially, and executes them in accordance with the resolutions of the Selection and Training Committee after the meeting. The implementation relevant to the Yeh Yi-Tian incident also followed the same procedure of holding a meeting and executing the resolutions. Personally, I feel that the Association has done nothing illegal or at fault.

4. Reasons for the occurrence and escalation of the incident

1. On the cusp of the Sports Administration being promoted to the Sports Department in the government unit, the director is arbitrarily showing great courage in making decisions. I personally believe that it was the Sports Administration, not the Table Tennis Association, that has failed to communicate with the association to verify the facts. Please do not use political means to deal with sports matters.

2. The media have failed to report in a balanced manner and unilaterally adopted the press release of the Sports Administration without interviewing the relevant personnel of the association and made a judgment on the association. However, justice is in the hearts of the people, and as media workers, they should have a conscience and not go with the flow.

3. The fact that several congressmen also came together to support the view rate shows that you care about the rights of the players and increase your own bargaining chips so that you can get promoted and strike it rich when the time comes. I advise the Lai [Ching-Te] administration to look at the current Kuomintang. Water can carry a boat, but it can also capsize it.

Executive Director of the Table Tennis Association

Sincerely submitted by Chen Shin-Yen (Shi-Le), Selection and Training Committee Member 114/6/2
 
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says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
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The farce is coming to an end.

桌球/桌協常務理事聲明屬個人行為 體育署撤回懲處 (Table tennis / The executive director of the Table Tennis Association stated that it was a individual act and the Sports Administration withdrew the punishment)
https://udn.com/news/story/7005/8782357

【LIVE】0603桌協願向葉伊恬道歉 體育署與協會發表共同聲明 (【LIVE】0603 The Table Tennis Association is willing to apologize to Yeh Yi-Tian. The Sports Administration and the Association issued a joint statement [TL's note: The initial video caption actually reads the Association refuses to apologize, which is closer to the truth])
 
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says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
Jan 2018
10,435
11,454
24,400
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