Setup Question Long 5 + Rubbers??

[Zezima]

Hello guys,
I currently play with the Long 5 and since 1 month both sides D09c for the first time. (coming from R7 Bh and G1 FH)

I don´t know if I really make use of these Rubbers especially on the FH I am very very unsure. Even on the Bh I do very slow drives against blocks many times. I rather want to keep the ball on the table then hitting it hard and uncontrolled and lose the point. I am more aggressive in the beginning with the bh but during the rally not so much.

I want to link 3 games from two different days. One against a Player at my level and another who has less points but surprised me a lot with how good his blocks were.


I want to know if I should try https://prott.vip/Product-Details.aspx?productcode=NEOH3provincialblue this for my FH. I got no coach or any better players to train with. So from the 18 games I played so far I lost to 4 who would attack after a single push (14-4). I went 48%WR in my first season in this class 2 years ago. So in a way thats a huge improvement already, but I still feel like I have lots to improve and be more consistent. I actually don´t know how I won so many games so far. Mostly I play to win even if its dirty and from cheap points (letting them attack and miss). I also dont want to pay 160€ for Rubbers every 6month if I don´t even use their potential in real games, at the same time I do want to play with the best rubbers that fit for me. I also made the switch to these Rubbers a month ago and maybe jsut need more practise time with it because I feel it gets better and better (the previous rubbers had more catapult so I need to get used to the balls losing a lot of energy if I don´t play active strokes)

Anyways here are the games From best performing to least performing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kExjeAU1qP0

https://youtu.be/wubSiP1H6ZE

https://youtu.be/kJTF0VNnCHw

TLDR: I am overperforming (expectation wise) but still unsure about Rubbers. Maybe just need more Training and adjustment time? Thoughts?

 

[Aizen]

I don’t think H3 will be better for you.
You’ve mentioned you are not active as needed which I agree as well for your level.

H3 may hinder your you, with slower pace.

I’m using also HL5 and D09c, who used H3 for years.
This combination is perfectly fine, you can keep it. But the price is high of course.

 

[Zezima]

I don’t think H3 will be better for you.
You’ve mentioned you are not active as needed which I agree as well for your level.

H3 may hinder your you, with slower pace.

I’m using also HL5 and D09c, who used H3 for years.
This combination is perfectly fine, you can keep it. But the price is high of course.

Are you using the 200$ Long5? There seems to be different long 5s.
Also how does it feel for you in terms of engaging the sponge? Like do you "hit" more or try to contact the ball very thinly? I think the best feeling I got when I was hitting the ball more. The pace and spin just felt better. But I seem not be able to hit it like that all the time. Can´t pinpoint why.

 

[Aizen]

Are you using the 200$ Long5? There seems to be different long 5s.
Also how does it feel for you in terms of engaging the sponge? Like do you "hit" more or try to contact the ball very thinly? I think the best feeling I got when I was hitting the ball more. The pace and spin just felt better. But I seem not be able to hit it like that all the time. Can´t pinpoint why.

Yes, the standard, commercial long 5 from tt11 (when it was €130)

I haven’t changed my technique, it’s just faster and a bit gives higher arc than H3.

Thinner contact is used when needed like slow spiny openings on dropping balls etc,
otherwise all the time I just try to hit & brush to forward for looping as my coach trained.

Your problem could be related all about timing and positioning.

 

[Zezima]

Yes, the standard, commercial long 5 from tt11 (when it was €130)

I haven’t changed my technique, it’s just faster and a bit gives higher arc than H3.

Thinner contact is used when needed like slow spiny openings on dropping balls etc,
otherwise all the time I just try to hit & brush to forward for looping as my coach trained.

Your problem could be related all about timing and positioning.

Yeah I don´t have a coach. Also it feels like I am too close to the table and take the ball very early instead of letting it come to my hitting zone. I believe in the 2nd Link last Set I let the Ball drop more and that worked out great. But need to experiment a bit more. Because this thing where I am glued to the table doesn´t seem to be working for me. Need to find a good half distance once the rally starts.

 

[joshmak10]

My opinion, all DHS blades are best with H3 Neo Blue sponge FH. BH rubber can be any rubber that’s not softer than ESN 47 deg. I’ve tried a friends Long 5 with G1 and hated it. I tried another friends Long 5 with H3 Neo Blue provincial and loved it way more

 

[TackyForehand]

From the videos, you just need to keep at it.

 

[Jan_]

Great, buy w968 and hurricane 3 player edition, it'll solve all your problems.

Or you know... Just train...

And if you must change equipment, which would be a good idea if you're not a masochist, give up that stupid blade and rubbers and get a korbel with rozena. Learn how to keep attacking continuously in a point and then then after a few years upgrade. IF you need to upgrade. Most people really don't need anything better.

 

[Zezima]

I trained yesterday again. I could do insane loops with Bh (even the lunge forwards hitting the ball more when in rally) loop both sided flick with bh. Opening up with fh on halflong longish balls no problem at all.
So I kind of got my confidence back. Even after the first loop I could keep looping again and again. And for the first time in a while I really felt the control I had when looping. I would let the ball drop longer sometimes (on purpose) instead of rushing forwards.

When I was doing training matches I was down 1-2 and then went like ok now you play serious (without showing all my good services since we gonna play in league in 1,5weeks) next 2 sets he got 3 points alltogether (11-0,11-3). And I feel bad for saying this but I was like: I played a bit more serious now, we can play again but you have no chance now. And he laughed and said yeah nice joke. We played again was a quick 3-0. Felt like I even had time to think about placement speed spin of the ball against heavy push and fast blocks of his.

Also I found like I perform better with the bh when I do mini hopping after hitting the shot. Hard to explain and I will keep working on it and see if I can do it more (instead of standing still on the same place).

So I will ditch the idea of H3 neo for now and just train train train. Probably another session just focusing on feeling the ball again focusing on hitting it with a good arc/placement and not just full power mode.

Maybe I can find the time to film my sessions 1-2mins of a Drill and show you guys my progress. I really want to end top 5 in the winter season. Summer Season will Start end of January.

 

[Sims]

Hello guys,
I currently play with the Long 5 and since 1 month both sides D09c for the first time. (coming from R7 Bh and G1 FH)

I don´t know if I really make use of these Rubbers especially on the FH I am very very unsure. Even on the Bh I do very slow drives against blocks many times. I rather want to keep the ball on the table then hitting it hard and uncontrolled and lose the point. I am more aggressive in the beginning with the bh but during the rally not so much.

I want to link 3 games from two different days. One against a Player at my level and another who has less points but surprised me a lot with how good his blocks were.


I want to know if I should try https://prott.vip/Product-Details.aspx?productcode=NEOH3provincialblue this for my FH. I got no coach or any better players to train with. So from the 18 games I played so far I lost to 4 who would attack after a single push (14-4). I went 48%WR in my first season in this class 2 years ago. So in a way thats a huge improvement already, but I still feel like I have lots to improve and be more consistent. I actually don´t know how I won so many games so far. Mostly I play to win even if its dirty and from cheap points (letting them attack and miss). I also dont want to pay 160€ for Rubbers every 6month if I don´t even use their potential in real games, at the same time I do want to play with the best rubbers that fit for me. I also made the switch to these Rubbers a month ago and maybe jsut need more practise time with it because I feel it gets better and better (the previous rubbers had more catapult so I need to get used to the balls losing a lot of energy if I don´t play active strokes)

Anyways here are the games From best performing to least performing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kExjeAU1qP0&

https://youtu.be/wubSiP1H6ZE

https://youtu.be/kJTF0VNnCHw

TLDR: I am overperforming (expectation wise) but still unsure about Rubbers. Maybe just need more Training and adjustment time? Thoughts?

Everything is too fast, too advanced.
Long 5 and Dignics 09c are tools for professionals and advanced players with solid technique and great touch.
Imo you should go back to good rubbers that you can control and a blade that you can use to the full in the short game. Rakza 7, Fastarc etc should all be plenty for your current level really.
The 14-4 results doesn't really mean anything because its impossible to know where your opponents are at really. And regardless of a few victories it's more important to feel strong and confident in your technique and equipment because that's what's going to facilitate your improvement. Landing soft shots on the tabke and watching your opponent miss isn't going to work for very long at all and you'll get hammered at the next level of opponent because you won't be able to force the same errors from the, rather they will be forcing them from you.
You need to focus on what's going to give you real sustainable long term improvement and NOT on ratings.
So imo your strategy is flawed by using ratings to judge your improvement rather than measurable improvements in your consistency at all of the important shots.

And I'd be absolutely certain you cannot be more consistent at these shots using that equipment.

I see a guy at our club suffering similarly because he bought a FZD ALC, T05 and D09C but he's trying to run before he can walk and it's not working because every good player is finding holes in his short game and inconsistency in his attacks so he has actually gone a step backwards, even though he hasn't realised it himself yet. Sunken cost fallacy and all that, he's not gonna admit that he wasted €350 on equipment he's not able to use properly so he's gonna stick with it and waste a year.
I beat him 2 wks ago and he was so frustrated he didn't even shake my hand afterwards 🤷‍♂️
Anyway, unless you have the technique and touch of a very advanced player D09C is only going to hold you back and frustrate you.
I would sell them while they might still have value and put Fastarc G1 on FH and R7 on BH and get at least 1 or 2 coaching sessions.
Or try Rakza Z on FH. Sticky, great control in short game, great spin in looping and not too fast (as in no need to hold back for fear of losing control) as with 09c ?

 

[Zezima]

Everything is too fast, too advanced.
Long 5 and Dignics 09c are tools for professionals and advanced players with solid technique and great touch.
Imo you should go back to good rubbers that you can control and a blade that you can use to the full in the short game. Rakza 7, Fastarc etc should all be plenty for your current level really.
The 14-4 results doesn't really mean anything because its impossible to know where your opponents are at really. And regardless of a few victories it's more important to feel strong and confident in your technique and equipment because that's what's going to facilitate your improvement. Landing soft shots on the tabke and watching your opponent miss isn't going to work for very long at all and you'll get hammered at the next level of opponent because you won't be able to force the same errors from the, rather they will be forcing them from you.
You need to focus on what's going to give you real sustainable long term improvement and NOT on ratings.
So imo your strategy is flawed by using ratings to judge your improvement rather than measurable improvements in your consistency at all of the important shots.

And I'd be absolutely certain you cannot be more consistent at these shots using that equipment.

I see a guy at our club suffering similarly because he bought a FZD ALC, T05 and D09C but he's trying to run before he can walk and it's not working because every good player is finding holes in his short game and inconsistency in his attacks so he has actually gone a step backwards, even though he hasn't realised it himself yet. Sunken cost fallacy and all that, he's not gonna admit that he wasted €350 on equipment he's not able to use properly so he's gonna stick with it and waste a year.
I beat him 2 wks ago and he was so frustrated he didn't even shake my hand afterwards 🤷‍♂️
Anyway, unless you have the technique and touch of a very advanced player D09C is only going to hold you back and frustrate you.
I would sell them while they might still have value and put Fastarc G1 on FH and R7 on BH and get at least 1 or 2 coaching sessions.
Or try Rakza Z on FH. Sticky, great control in short game, great spin in looping and not too fast (as in no need to hold back for fear of losing control) as with 09c ?

Those 2 Blades are very different. And I don´t think the Setup is my problem. When doing Drills or in trainingmatches I feel confident if you read what I wrote. No Racket combination is gonna make me a better player if I don´t move and use the correct shot in matchplay.

I do think matchplay (win/loss) is a good indicator how good you are performing. As I said last time in this League I was ~49% Winrate at the end of the season (started with like 30% winrate). And now I am 3rd Place after the 6th Round, with the same Racket and only 1month D09c usage. Previously I had R7 BH and G1 on FH. R7 was good on my bh, but I prefered blocking and driving more because I would not be able to overpower my opponents with the generated spin.I needed much more energy atleast. When I tried out D09c I finally could. Maybe I need something inbetween those who knows. I for myself don´t want to buy this Rubber if 95% of the time I dont use my backhand Topspin.
You say short game and tell me to go back to my g1 where my short game was even worse due to this rubber. With the d09c I can keep any short serve short. I only struggle to keep half long balls short but that would be the case with the g1 aswell.

Rakza Z I didn´t try out would you say its something between G1 and D09c? and in which mm do you play it?

All I can say is I play much better than my previous Rubber. It shows in Rating and from the feedback I get from my opponents and trainingpartners. My biggest problem is I need better training partners. Its hard to see improvements if I just beat the same players and have noone that can beat me (only in League games).

You are also correct in that I can´t rely on opponents making mistakes all the time. But show me a recent game of mine where I am just playing passive and still win or even lost? I always try. And hope its visible in my games.

I think my question was more like if H3neo would be a better fit for how I play my FH shots. And I think I got my answer that it would be not the case.

Also there is my teammate who plays with Rossi Blade and g1 on both sides 2,00 and 1,9? we were on the same level 2 years ago and now after my switch I am performing much better than him. He is 10-5 9th place. Something to note is because how we set it up he gets to play against their worst player. While I have to beat their top 3 players each week.

I just don´t see the point to go back to catapulty rubbers that make my short game even worse. Finding ways to still get better while playing with worse players than me would be good aswell.

 

[jk1980]

Rakza Z I didn´t try out would you say its something between G1 and D09c? and in which mm do you play it?

Rakza Z is way easier to play than dignics 09c, while you will not miss out on much if you are not a semi-pro.
In short Rakza Z is softer (50°) and more sticky which will make it easier to play shots slightly out of position (compared to dig 09c). Rakza Z has an easier short game than Dignics 09c, because in passive shots its even slow/less bouncy.
There are even two more interessting rubbers in Yasaka's lineup which could be used if one wanted a little more control than Rakza Z even, which is the Rising Dragon II which is also 50° but not that sticky (but still good spin and short game) and an even more error forgiving Shining Dragon II which is 47,5° again a little sticky, but not that much like Rakza Z.

 

[Tyce]

I don't necessarily disagree with @Sims but there are opposing views to this, and both sides have working examples as well as failing ones.

HL5 is a quality blade. Its inner fiber structure should provide an easily accessible touch game, so this blade could support you for years and years. The carbon support might take some time to get used to, especially coming from allwood, but I don't think there's a problem here.

D09c is honestly a very well positioned rubber. It's perfect for those who find D05 too springy, and H3N too hard to work. But it's also very costly. The main question is though, what do you want to play with?
You are a developing player, even if you already have a certain level. You're learning, adapting, evolving, and what comes with that is that whatever you play with, you adapt to. Some adaptations take a long time, some are pretty quick, but in the end if you want to make H3N work, you can. And if you want to make Dignics work, you can too.

 

[Sims]

Those 2 Blades are very different.

What 2 blades? I only saw mention of the Long 5.

And I don´t think the Setup is my problem. When doing Drills or in trainingmatches I feel confident if you read what I wrote.

Drills and training matches, ok.
But you said you're holding back in actual matches because you don't have the confidence and fear your shots on both sides will go long.

I do think matchplay (win/loss) is a good indicator how good you are performing.

Ok, but I do disagree. It's just an indication of who you've beaten. Only you really know how good they are.
But you said you beat them through their mistakes rather than you bringing a strong and confident game to them. This isn't good

You say short game and tell me to go back to my g1 where my short game was even worse due to this rubber. With the d09c I can keep any short serve short. I only struggle to keep half long balls short but that would be the case with the g1 aswell.

Then you have an issue with your short game that you need to really work on butb D09c is not the answer. It is more catapulty than Fastarc, for me anyway. I think fix your short game with a controllable rubber, that you can use to the max in line and short. Again, not 09c imo.

Rakza Z I didn´t try out would you say its something between G1 and D09c? and in which mm do you play it?

Yes, it's something inbetween them.
Sticky like 09c but slower catapult/sponge.
I play max sponge on it

All I can say is I play much better than my previous Rubber.

I think your improvement is from your 2nd season and an organic improvement from a years experience.

You are also correct in that I can´t rely on opponents making mistakes all the time. But show me a recent game of mine where I am just playing passive and still win or even lost? I always try. And hope its visible in my games.

I just believe that if you have to hold back I think the equipment is wrong.

I just don´t see the point to go back to catapulty rubbers that make my short game even worse.

But 09c is catapulty, right?

I'm just writing to help you flesh this out and hopefully arrive at the sensible conclusion you need.
Obviously I can't say what equipment you should use but I am pretty sure about what you maybe shouldn't use.
But I hear you, Fastarc isn't for everyone but it's easier for most that 09c.
I'm sure good recommendations of rubbers for your situation will come from others.
Wish ya best of luck !

 

[Sims]

I don't necessarily disagree with @Sims but there are opposing views to this, and both sides have working examples as well as failing ones.

HL5 is a quality blade. Its inner fiber structure should provide an easily accessible touch game, so this blade could support you for years and years. The carbon support might take some time to get used to, especially coming from allwood, but I don't think there's a problem here.

D09c is honestly a very well positioned rubber. It's perfect for those who find D05 too springy, and H3N too hard to work. But it's also very costly. The main question is though, what do you want to play with?
You are a developing player, even if you already have a certain level. You're learning, adapting, evolving, and what comes with that is that whatever you play with, you adapt to. Some adaptations take a long time, some are pretty quick, but in the end if you want to make H3N work, you can. And if you want to make Dignics work, you can too.

I agree with everything except making D09c work. You have to attack almost everything with this beast which demands damn good technique with no questions over form or holding back. And the touch of Waldner to make it work under pressure and in the short game. 😂

 

[Tyce]

I agree with everything except making D09c work. You have to attack almost everything with this beast which demands damn good technique with no questions over form or holding back. And the touch of Waldner to make it work under pressure and in the short game. 😂

I didn't say it would be easy (for everyone) and yeah I agree that if you move up a level, the holes will reveal themselves pretty brutally... But that being said, if this is what you want to play and master, then go for it

 

[Sims]

I didn't say it would be easy (for everyone) and yeah I agree that if you move up a level, the holes will reveal themselves pretty brutally... But that being said, if this is what you want to play and master, then go for it

Sure
But he has no coach and no better training partners so I can't see any way to recommend pushing ahead with D09c when he is struggling with it.
How do you recommend a development strategy for his current setup?
I think that's the question here

 

[Zezima]

Rakza Z is way easier to play than dignics 09c, while you will not miss out on much if you are not a semi-pro.
In short Rakza Z is softer (50°) and more sticky which will make it easier to play shots slightly out of position (compared to dig 09c). Rakza Z has an easier short game than Dignics 09c, because in passive shots its even slow/less bouncy.
There are even two more interessting rubbers in Yasaka's lineup which could be used if one wanted a little more control than Rakza Z even, which is the Rising Dragon II which is also 50° but not that sticky (but still good spin and short game) and an even more error forgiving Shining Dragon II which is 47,5° again a little sticky, but not that much like Rakza Z.

Have you played with both? What do you mean will make it easier to play shots slightly out of position?
Because right now I can also do "weak" drives back to the table when I am out of position.
I also dont quite understand how a slower setup is more forgiving when topspinning for example if you can generate less Topspin overall and more topspin == safety over the net. The ball wont fly out faster with a slower setup == enemy has more time to finish the point.
I don´t lose my game because of my short game. My opponents actually never serve short. Its his topspin opening (my blocking abilities) vs my topspin and his blocking abilities.
Why did I feel such an upgrade from R7 to D09c in my bh game? -> Fh I only felt the advantage in the short game I assume because of the stickiness. In the Topspin game I didnt feel too much of a difference between d09c vs G1(G1 would fly out more)

 

[Zezima]

What 2 blades? I only saw mention of the Long 5.

Drills and training matches, ok.
But you said you're holding back in actual matches because you don't have the confidence and fear your shots on both sides will go long.

Ok, but I do disagree. It's just an indication of who you've beaten. Only you really know how good they are.
But you said you beat them through their mistakes rather than you bringing a strong and confident game to them. This isn't good

Then you have an issue with your short game that you need to really work on butb D09c is not the answer. It is more catapulty than Fastarc, for me anyway. I think fix your short game with a controllable rubber, that you can use to the max in line and short. Again, not 09c imo.

Yes, it's something inbetween them.
Sticky like 09c but slower catapult/sponge.
I play max sponge on it

I think your improvement is from your 2nd season and an organic improvement from a years experience.

I just believe that if you have to hold back I think the equipment is wrong.

But 09c is catapulty, right?

I'm just writing to help you flesh this out and hopefully arrive at the sensible conclusion you need.
Obviously I can't say what equipment you should use but I am pretty sure about what you maybe shouldn't use.
But I hear you, Fastarc isn't for everyone but it's easier for most that 09c.
I'm sure good recommendations of rubbers for your situation will come from others.
Wish ya best of luck !

1) you mentioned fzd alc thats what I meant
2) I am not holding back because of no confidence but because I was not forced to do a "more active" stroke to win the game. I do go for more proactive shots when I feel like my "safe" playstyle is not good enough to win the game
3) well I would say both. Their mistakes + enough aggression from my side to win the game
4) Yes but if I lost to that player last year and I win this year its a good indicator. Or just overall if I was 1200 last year and I beat 1500 Players now thats an improvement. My 3 out of the 4 losses were against the first place 1700 2nd place 1500 and 6th place 1500. Going without a loss would have been too good.
5) As I mentioned earlier short game is not needed. I can loop long fast or just loop these half longs myself. So far it was this one game against the lefty. But to be honest his opening loops were crazy for a 1300 player. After 2 edges 1 let he kept going for more and more having insane self confidence afterwards. Happens gotta move on.
And again G1 is bad for shortgame much worse than D09c. I don´t think I will ever go back to G1 again. Rather something like Rakza Z IF I want to give another rubber a shot because D09c is expensive.

I just believe that if you have to hold back I think the equipment is wrong.

We all hold back yes even you in an actual match. It´s just another atmosphere. You are more nervous and more stiff. Lose confidence fast after a missed shot and so on...
I would say equipment is bad if you cant open up properly or you get no good feedback on your strokes (you cant tell what went wrong with the shot) Mostly with very fast carbon blades...

But 09c is catapulty, right?

Nope its not. Its very slow when you just hold the racket and very fast if your stroke is fast. G1 for example I could just hold the racket and bring the ball back to the table. With D09c I still need to drive the ball forwards otherwise it goes into the net. You never played with that rubber? Because you are super against it and dont even know its not catapulty at all.

But I hear you, Fastarc isn't for everyone but it's easier for most that 09c.

I played with both. And I feel like D09c is teaching me more to do active strokes no matter what. While G1 for example makes you go for bad strokes and just holding your racket to bring the ball back to the table.
So longterm I dont think I benefit from that rubber at all. Because I am very tall and it makes me just reach for the ball.

As I said jumping to this rubber was already a big change and forces me to do active strokes so I guess H3neo is not for me if that is even slower.

 

[Zezima]

I didn't say it would be easy (for everyone) and yeah I agree that if you move up a level, the holes will reveal themselves pretty brutally... But that being said, if this is what you want to play and master, then go for it

Yeah my current "holes" are 1) if my opponent opens up spinny I seem to have big problems (you can see that clearly against the lefty player I lost to in the video)
Hard to train with players 200 ratings and below who have no spinny topspin....

2) Attacking long serves in a way that I get in favorable position. <- This one gets better in each training. I just need to work on my footwork a bit more so that after the first loop I go back a bit (half distance) so I can keep topspinning the next ball

3) Once my first Topspin gets blocked I stop playing aggressively (only happens in matchplay) I rather focus on keeping the ball on the table and wait for a better ball to attack.

4) Distance to the table. <-- Already mentioned above. I stand sometimes too close to the table not realizing I should go further back to have more time. Sucks even more if the next ball comes into my elbow. As a tall Person thats the entire middle table. So it hurts even more when I am too close.

5) Dealing with slow high topspins/blocks. Also getting better at this but yeah needs to be more consistent with this.