This why I don't complain illegal serves

[rpb23]

The above is a pic I borrowed from a forum member and it perfectly illustrates why current service rule, especially about hidden serve rule is unenforceable.

If you stand on the back of the receiving player in the pic, it's quite obvious the server's shoulder was blocking the contact point when the ball hitting the paddle, a violation of the service rule;

However, if you stand where the ref was sitting in the middle of the table on the side in the pic, the server's shoulder was not obstructing his view, so it's legal.

Guess who makes the final call on the legality of a serve? Yes, not the player who is the direct victim of the so called illegal serve but the ref who bears no impact on any type of serve, legal or illegal.

Now, you see the problem on an important rule of our sport?

For this reason, I don't complain illegal serve like other forum members do. It's all in the ref hands. If he calls it, it's an illegal serve, if he allows it, it's legal. Simple as that, you can not do anything about that. So why wasting lots of energy and emotion on things like that?

As for players who serve so called illegal serve, they shouldn't be blamed for this mess. To them, as long as ref allows, they should continue with a serve if it's effective against his opponent. Players' main objective is to try their best to win, not being a gentleman or raising high moral standard. Or you can even say trying all the means possible under the current rule to maximize the possibility to win is one form of ultimate professionalism.

My point is, if you see a player committing illegal serve in your eyes, don't blame the player. Blame the refs!

In reality, if a rule is inherently vague, unenforceable, blaming the refs is also not fair.

Then, lets blame the rule! Now you are on the point. Change or improve the rule may once for all resolve the controversy.

But, wait for a moment, blame is easy, change it is not.

Trust me, ITTF rule committee are aware of this issue ever since the new rule was made. They tried to address the issue over the years. The fact the rule hasn't really changed over the years means it's not that easy to change. Lots of factors need to be considered, game flow, financial cost, practicality, etc, etc.. At the end, the committee left the issue in refs' hands hoping most refs will make a reasonable call.

That's the sad state of the illegal serve situation.

Any idea you can make the rule a little better?

 

[NextLevel]

View attachment 32526
The above is a pic I borrowed from a forum member and it perfectly illustrates why current service rule, especially about hidden serve rule is unenforceable.

If you stand on the back of the receiving player in the pic, it's quite obvious the server's shoulder was blocking the contact point when the ball hitting the paddle, a violation of the service rule;

However, if you stand where the ref was sitting in the middle of the table on the side in the pic, the server's shoulder was not obstructing his view, so it's legal.

Guess who makes the final call on the legality of a serve? Yes, not the player who is the direct victim of the so called illegal serve but the ref who bears no impact on any type of serve, legal or illegal.

Now, you see the problem on an important rule of our sport?

For this reason, I don't complain illegal serve like other forum members do. It's all in the ref hands. If he calls it, it's an illegal serve, if he allows it, it's legal. Simple as that, you can not do anything about that. So why wasting lots of energy and emotion on things like that?

As for players who serve so called illegal serve, they shouldn't be blamed for this mess. To them, as long as ref allows, they should continue with a serve if it's effective against his opponent. Players' main objective is to try their best to win, not being a gentleman or raising high moral standard. Or you can even say trying all the means possible under the current rule to maximize the possibility to win is one form of ultimate professionalism.

My point is, if you see a player committing illegal serve in your eyes, don't blame the player. Blame the refs!

In reality, if a rule is inherently vague, unenforceable, blaming the refs is also not fair.

Then, lets blame the rule! Now you are on the point. Change or improve the rule may once for all resolve the controversy.

But, wait for a moment, blame is easy, change it is not.

Trust me, ITTF rule committee are aware of this issue ever since the new rule was made. They tried to address the issue over the years. The fact the rule hasn't really changed over the years means it's not that easy to change. Lots of factors need to be considered, game flow, financial cost, practicality, etc, etc.. At the end, the committee left the issue in refs' hands hoping most refs will make a reasonable call.

That's the sad state of the illegal serve situation.

Any idea you can the rule a little better?

Blah blah blah.

The rule is clear and enforceable, the problem is there is not enough money in the sport or interest from wealthy nations outside of Asia to care. When the computer they used in the 2019 ITTF grand finals faulted Ma Long very often, they put it in the freezer. When the GOAT is a serially illegal server. It already sets the stage for the sport.

 

[banbekas]

The rule should be clear that "every player has to serve like Samsonov's high toss serve". No hiding the ball behind your head, free hand, or body.

 

[rpb23]

Blah blah blah.

The rule is clear and enforceable, the problem is there is not enough money in the sport or interest from wealthy nations outside of Asia to care. When the computer they used in the 2019 ITTF grand finals faulted Ma Long very often, they put it in the freezer. When the GOAT is a serially illegal server. It already sets the stage for the sport.

You need to be a good reader. Did I mention financial cost is one of the main factors preventing the rule change? Game flow is another, you don't want a game frequently interrupted by refs' discussing, video reviewing... which certainly would drive audience away.

 

[banbekas]

You need to be a good reader. Did I mention financial cost is one of the main factors preventing the rule change? Game flow is another, you don't want a game frequently interrupted by refs' discussing, video reviewing... which certainly would drive audience away.

The serve already drives audience away anyway. Audience wants to see rally and what kind of rally can be done when it's all deceptive serve and third ball attack? Serve like Samsonov should be a mandatory for every player and give a harsh penalty for those who don't comply. Imagine how nice the sport will be if that ever happens.
I'm ranting btw, lol. Just got destroyed by hidden shovel serve today.

 

[turbozed]

There could be a rule like your shoulders need to be square to the table, and this would eliminate all body block illegal serves. Maybe something less severe like you just can't have your shoulders perpendicular to the table.

But in the end, OP's post is kinda pointless. He's not a pro and it doesn't affect him. There have been a ton of actual pros complaining and getting upset about these illegal serves. Not just players that are considered hotheads like Moregard and Lind. Actual legends like Timo Boll have complained about Lin Shidong's serves.

When an ATG like Timo is complaining, you know it's not a small issue.

It will affect us hobby players too as young players will emulate this type of behavior. I'm already dealing with old guy no toss serves. I don't want to deal with mini-LSD wannabe middle schooler serves as well.

 

[NextLevel]

You need to be a good reader. Did I mention financial cost is one of the main factors preventing the rule change? Game flow is another, you don't want a game frequently interrupted by refs' discussing, video reviewing... which certainly would drive audience away.

No, not financial cost. You need to read and understand better before accusing people. Part of the reason why tennis and soccer and other big sports brought in VAR is because there is lots of money tied to TV deals and fans and losing integrity ruins the sport. In table tennis, there isn't enough money in the sport from fans or gambling to care in most countries. This is not quite the same thing as the lack of money in table tennis even if it is a bit related.

And my main point is that the cheating is so rampant that even the solutions affected notable players and after that no one cared.

 

[rpb23]

The rule should be clear that "every player has to serve like Samsonov's high toss serve". No hiding the ball behind your head, free hand, or body.

How about only allowing no spin serve like practice play? How about having a robot shoot the ball?

Seriously, for many hard nosed fans, spin is one of the most attractive parts of the game. Taking that part away, table tennis is just not fun anymore.

 

[turbozed]

You need to be a good reader. Did I mention financial cost is one of the main factors preventing the rule change? Game flow is another, you don't want a game frequently interrupted by refs' discussing, video reviewing... which certainly would drive audience away.

So you'd rather have an 17-16 extra points game decided because the receiving player didn't see the serve contact like what happened in the match?

Wouldn't be more exciting if the game was decided by an exciting rally, rather than how it actually ended? Shinozuka having no idea what the serve was and guessing wrong. That's a glorified coin flip.

 

[turbozed]

How about only allowing no spin serve like practice play? How about having a robot shoot the ball?

Seriously, for many hard nosed fans, spin is one of the most attractive parts of the game. Taking that part away, table tennis is just not fun anymore.

How about not misrepresenting the guy you're responding to?

Clearly he never said anything about banning spin, but you are responding to him as if he did, bizarrely. This is the very definition of what a "strawman argument" is.

 

[banbekas]

How about only allowing no spin serve like practice play? How about having a robot shoot the ball?

Seriously, for many hard nosed fans, spin is one of the most attractive parts of the game. Taking that part away, table tennis is just not fun anymore.

You only do no spin serve in practice?

 

[rpb23]

No, not financial cost. You need to read and understand better before accusing people. Part of the reason why tennis and soccer and other big sports brought in VAR is because there is lots of money tied to TV deals and fans and losing integrity ruins the sport. In table tennis, there isn't enough money in the sport from fans or gambling to care in most countries. This is not quite the same thing as the lack of money in table tennis even if it is a bit related.

And my main point is that the cheating is so rampant that even the solutions affected notable players and after that no one cared.

The difference between you and I is although we both recognize illegal serve is a big issue, you put main blame on players and call them cheaters and I blame the rule itself for its difficulty or impossible to enforce UNDER THE CURRENT REF SETTINGS.

Fan complain, pros complain, doesn't make any difference in terms of the root cause of the issue.

You want players police each other on the serve legality? Or let the players do self-policing by their so called moral standard? What a mess!

Let me say this: there are many factors affecting the popularity of the game, but hidden serve is NOT the main one.

Compared to baseball, football, basketball etc, table tennis is relatively clean even with existing problematic service rule. Win or lose between two players is overwhelmingly decided by players' play, less influenced by refs' arbitrary call or judgemental errors.

 

[rpb23]

How about not misrepresenting the guy you're responding to?

Clearly he never said anything about banning spin, but you are responding to him as if he did, bizarrely. This is the very definition of what a "strawman argument" is.

How about... is I propose, not meant anyone else.

 

[rpb23]

You only do no spin serve in practice?

Most times, like a warm up drill.
Of course, sometime, I do serve and serve return drill.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

It will affect us hobby players too as young players will emulate this type of behavior. I'm already dealing with old guy no toss serves. I don't want to deal with mini-LSD wannabe middle schooler serves as well.

Oh but it is already happening. The academy where I am playing against U15 type school-kids, WCQ / LSD hook serve with body covering the ball are all in vogue now. There is no stopping this. I told the coach about it and I knew from his response be like: As long as they are not faulted during the match by the referee, so..... " look at feet and play with thumbs silence "...

 

[NextLevel]

The difference between you and I is although we both recognize illegal serve is a big issue, you put main blame on players and call them cheaters and I blame the rule itself for its difficulty or impossible to enforce UNDER THE CURRENT REF SETTINGS.

Fan complain, pros complain, doesn't make any difference in terms of the root cause of the issue.

You want players police each other on the serve legality? Or let the players do self-policing by their so called moral standard? What a mess!

Let me say this: there are many factors affecting the popularity of the game, but hidden serve is NOT the main one.

Compared to baseball, football, basketball etc, table tennis is relatively clean even with existing problematic service rule. Win or lose between two players is overwhelmingly decided by players' play, less influenced by refs' arbitrary call or judgemental errors.

Sure. Pretending that you know my opinion on this despite my posting here for 10 years and you just joining probably under a new name.

Give me a break. There have been a lot of discussions on serves over many years and many back and forth proposals. The players carry the bulk of the responsibility because they don't want to change the way they serve and therefore rules that actually force legal serving outlaw lots of historically prominent serves like the pendulum serve as usually used. Of course there are other issues, but that is the truth. If the players wanted to change the way they served, there would be quick agreement on an enforceable rule. The fact that there isn't money in the sport also leads to a lot of unprofessional umpiring since they are mostly per diem covered volunteers. That would never happen in a bigger sport where just about all the referees are seriously paid professionals.

 

[riemsesy]

View attachment 32526


Any idea you can make the rule a little better?

Yes..
1. ball should be placed on a flat hand, before it's thrown in the air
2. player may not give any rotation to the ball while throwing the ball in the air.
3. ball should be thrown almost completely vertically (30° exception in the bin)
4. ball has to be thrown at least 16 cm..
5. ball has to be visible for the opponent from the moment the ball is thrown in the air until contact with the racket

so far.. it's almost similar
6. The body of the player has to be behind the table while serving
7. The player's shoulders may not be turned more than 80° away from table.

 

[Nima Abadi]

The serve already drives audience away anyway. Audience wants to see rally and what kind of rally can be done when it's all deceptive serve and third ball attack? Serve like Samsonov should be a mandatory for every player and give a harsh penalty for those who don't comply. Imagine how nice the sport will be if that ever happens.
I'm ranting btw, lol. Just got destroyed by hidden shovel serve today.

The only way to increase viewership for TT is to simplify the game it for general audience and add more focus on rallies.

IMO, serves should be similar to tennis (one to each side) and the first bounce on the receiver's side should be after the middle of the table to improve the flow.

Average folks don't wanna see how well we can disguise or hide our serves so that we win the point right away or on the 3rd ball attack. They wanna see something that they understand and that's rallies.

 

[igorponger]

Revision of serve rule is already under study by ITTF. It sounds like this:
-- The ball shall be between server's body other than head and the table's end line when the ball is struck.
_____________
Be happy all

 

[RefereeNumber2]

Revision of serve rule is already under study by ITTF. It sounds like this:
-- The ball shall be between server's body other than head and the table's end line when the ball is struck.
_____________
Be happy all

Glad to hear there are high-profile proponents of this rule change. The proposed rule could be even more precisely be stated as something like "The server's body must be entirely behind the vertical plane intersecting the back of the ball at the moment of contact." The best position to judge whether this rule is being followed is from the side of the table -- exactly where the umpire sits during matches. It is also equally enforceable at all levels of play, similar to service rules in other racket sports like tennis and badminton. It doesn't require some expensive camera tech.

It would be somewhat disruptive to players because it affects the most commonly-used serves in the game, including the forehand pendulum. Basically everyone would have to do only backhand, tomahawk/reverse tomahawk, and lollipop serves.