Transfer robot practice

[tabletennismaniac]

For quite some time now I’m working on changing my forehand technique.
To speed the process up I have decided to invest in a robot to isolate the element.
I have already see quite big improvement while practicing with the robot on various speed, placements… but as soon as I hit the table with real opponent, it seems that very quickly I revert to old habits and can’t really replicate what I do with the robot. I start to feel that it might also be mental issues.

Anyone here had similar experience?
Any tips and tricks to overcome this?

I have decided that while changing, I will not stop practicing with people, as I thought it’s beneficial to test what I learn frequently with real people. But now start to think that this might be the cause I get my old habits re-appearing and slow down the process of change?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

a robot is not a coach
if self learning is possible (to that level), then why even the likes of world champions need a coach to help on techniques?

It is obvious that robots do not hit the ball like players, so you are not used to an opponent give you the ball - which is very inconsistent compared to that of a robot.

other than that, they could be many mistakes in your techniques when hitting against the robot too, and that has just surfaced enough for you to realize.

 

[tabletennismaniac]

a robot is not a coach
if self learning is possible (to that level), then why even the likes of world champions need a coach to help on techniques?

It is obvious that robots do not hit the ball like players, so you are not used to an opponent give you the ball - which is very inconsistent compared to that of a robot.

other than that, they could be many mistakes in your techniques when hitting against the robot too, and that has just surfaced enough for you to realize.

Thanks and I agree with you except for doesn’t matter how good the coach is - you still need a lot repetition to cancel bad habits - don’t you agree?
Just to add some extra details is that I have worked with the coach to set basic technique and I always record robot practice to see what I am actually doing and seek feedback. People are actually very surprised on how different my technique is compared to robot and “real life”.
And I also agree that its very likely due to robot being much more consistent.
So the purpose of this post was to seek any other advice from what I can get around me.

 

[Aizen]

It is normal that everyone plays better against to robot than a person.

Like everyone plays better in training than match, so on.

I’m just guessing, maybe you are out of position and wrong with timing against a player.

That could be another thing. You can record in games too and compare with robot but there could be a flaw in robot and gets bigger in real etc.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Thanks and I agree with you except for doesn’t matter how good the coach is - you still need a lot repetition to cancel bad habits - don’t you agree?

this part, I am referring to, you need others eyes on you, and not your own eyes.

with no eyes on you, how do you know if your repetition (without the coach) is correct?

 

[HankSquib]

At least if it is a simple 2 wheel robot, it’s possible that you are getting attuned to the rate of fire instead of practicing good habits. It’s possible that the quality of the stroke lowers as result of the repetition instead of increasing due to the regularity. That’s why I think rebound boards are sometimes better for refining technique and robots are better for putting it into practice. If you record yourself against other players, you might find the deeper result why you revert to habits especially if the mistakes fall into the way too big motion, over pronation, or footwork. Good luck.

 

[Tony Funk My Racket]

If you have no coach to help, the next best thing is to video yourself training with the robot (camera & tripod). Do side view, back and front alternatively. Do short 2-3 minutes sessions of FH repetition then check what it looks like on the video. You will see many things youhad no idea was happening. I have done this succesfully in TT and golf when there is was no other choice.

And yes, a robot is not the same as training partner becasue with a partner you never get two times the same ball but the robot will help put motor skills in place that will become automatic in time. It can also be useful for developping footwork system, speed and endurance (cardio). For some it is hard to find a training partner who can play well enough to give consistent balls to work on specifics so the robot is great alternative.

Good luck!

 

[Tyce]

First reaction: integrating practice into match play takes time. It's completely normal for your habits to reappear, and as long as you are aware of it, you can make corrections. Over time, the old habits will mostly disappear.

 

[Amayzde]

I have a bit of experience with this.

Of course a robot can be a great tool to build a decent foundation. When practicing you will get used to getting the ball in the exact same spot with the exact same speed every time. This will make it easier for you to learn new strokes you previously couldn't execute or executed poorly. But there is also a few cons about training with a robot:

1. You are not training micro adjusments. Since the ball comes into the exact same spot every time. You dont have to move your feet the slightest bit.
When playing against a real person, depending on how good your opponent is the placement of a ball can vary 10, 20 or even more centimeters.

2. You will get used to the rythm in which the robot feeds you the balls. This rythm might hide your timing issues if you are having any. So when playing against a real opponent, and the pace of the ball changes, you will have trouble changing the speed of your swing according to the balls speed.

3. You wont train the most important thing in table tennis: anticipation by looking at your opponent. Its very important to look at your opponent and see what hes doing. If you dont get this right, you will basicly always be too late for every ball. Because you only react to the ball once it bounces on your side, which is just way to late to anticipate the ball.

So a robot is a great tool to learn the basics of a stroke. But once you can execute a stroke its more important to play with real opponents.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I have a bit of experience with this.

Of course a robot can be a great tool to build a decent foundation. When practicing you will get used to getting the ball in the exact same spot with the exact same speed every time. This will make it easier for you to learn new strokes you previously couldn't execute or executed poorly. But there is also a few cons about training with a robot:

1. You are not training micro adjusments. Since the ball comes into the exact same spot every time. You dont have to move your feet the slightest bit.
When playing against a real person, depending on how good your opponent is the placement of a ball can vary 10, 20 or even more centimeters.

2. You will get used to the rythm in which the robot feeds you the balls. This rythm might hide your timing issues if you are having any. So when playing against a real opponent, and the pace of the ball changes, you will have trouble changing the speed of your swing according to the balls speed.

3. You wont train the most important thing in table tennis: anticipation by looking at your opponent. Its very important to look at your opponent and see what hes doing. If you dont get this right, you will basicly always be too late for every ball. Because you only react to the ball once it bounces on your side, which is just way to late to anticipate the ball.

So a robot is a great tool to learn the basics of a stroke. But once you can execute a stroke its more important to play with real opponents.

and that is the reason why pros don't train with robot, but using human multiball feeding, as the placement, speed, arc, frequency per each feed is unique.
there is also a visual and audio aspect than just the ball shooting to you and you need to remember the spin that you set the drill to, and not learn to read how the ball gets contact.

 

[latej]

Some robots can set random-level for each ball. If your robot can't do that, then you can play different balls, like BH, FH. The transition should at least partially break the stereotype/rhytm. Cheers.

Edit: Working with the couch maybe 2x better than playing with partner, and playing with partner maybe 10x better than playing with robot. But playing with robot is 1000'000x better than not playing at all. So, continue fighting...

 

[Tyce]

Yeah sticking your feet to the ground receiving the same ball on the same position is the biggest killer to translate to matches. Making it difficult for yourself is good here

 

[Dr Evil]

...as soon as I hit the table with real opponent, it seems that very quickly I revert to old habits and can’t really replicate what I do with the robot...

Anyone here had similar experience?
Any tips and tricks to overcome this?

Yes, similar experience. I'd even say that training with a robot can be actively bad for developing technique. You ideally need someone watching what you're doing while you're doing it. If you don't have a coach, making videos of your drills and immediately reviewing them is better than nothing, but I'd strongly recommend using a video delay app instead which gives almost real time visual feedback. I also agree that you shouldn't do robot drills where you're standing still because that's not how it works with a real player. Robots let you create habits/muscle memory very quickly, and the habit of standing still and expecting the ball to come right where you want it will hurt your game.

 

[pingpongpaddy]

Yes, similar experience. I'd even say that training with a robot can be actively bad for developing technique. You ideally need someone watching what you're doing while you're doing it. If you don't have a coach, making videos of your drills and immediately reviewing them is better than nothing, but I'd strongly recommend using a video delay app instead which gives almost real time visual feedback. I also agree that you shouldn't do robot drills where you're standing still because that's not how it works with a real player. Robots let you create habits/muscle memory very quickly, and the habit of standing still and expecting the ball to come right where you want it will hurt your game.

Very good point. I have a robot, and I found it better when waiting for the 1st ball of a drill to stand a step away from where the 1st ball comes so that I have to step into the shot as I would in a real rally. Like wise when I give human multifeed, if 1st ball is to fh corner I make pupils stand in bh corner so as to use the correct footwork to move into the shot. Otherwise the exercise is unrealistic

 

[dingyibvs]

A robot is a tool, like your racket is a tool. How effective a tool is depends on how you use the tool, so don't listen to the people telling you a robot is useless. It has limitations like any other tool, you just need to find out what it's good for and how to compensate for its weaknesses. I started off my training with a table and a wall, and I managed for it to work for me in reaching 1800 in a year.

Tell me what kind of robot you have, maybe I can give you some tips on how to make it work for you.

 

[tabletennismaniac]

Thanks everyone for constructive feedback - much appreciated.

@dingyibvs - I have Tibhar Robopro Junior - quite basic, but can send ball to diffirent locations, backspin/topspin, but lacks random drills… would appreciate ant tips you have.

 

[Sims]

Good thread here dude, great Question.
Are you going to the table with a training partner and the intention of training your technique or are you trying to implement it in knock ups and club games?
Using a training partner as the first step to bringing your robot practice to the table is the best way to go. Your attempts to replicate the Robot drills with the variation in shots you will receive from another player will help a lot but you need a partner sympathetic to what you are trying to do.

 

[dingyibvs]

Thanks everyone for constructive feedback - much appreciated.

@dingyibvs - I have Tibhar Robopro Junior - quite basic, but can send ball to diffirent locations, backspin/topspin, but lacks random drills… would appreciate ant tips you have.

I see, so it can vary left and right between shots, but can't vary the length, speed, or spin, right?

Some have already made good suggestions, specifically incorporating movement before each shot. Let me give you something more specific. First, set your robot's pace to be half of what you'd like to practice at. For example, if you're intending to practice at a pace of ~80 balls/min, set it to ~40 balls/min or whatever setting your robot has the closest to. In between each shot, you would move to a different location and hit a shot against air, before moving back to hit the next shot against an actual ball fed by your robot. This can be done against different spins.

For example, let's say you're practicing the FH loop from your FH corner. Hit a FH shot against your robot's ball, then move to your left and hit a BH shot against air, then move back to your FH side to hit a FH loop. Now let's say you're practicing hitting a FH loop from your BH side. Hit a FH shot from your BH corner, then step to cover your wide FH against air, then move back to your BH corner to hit a FH shot from your BH corner. Another example, say you're practicing a BH loop. You can first step in to do a short push from your FH side against air, then quickly step back to your BH corner to do a BH loop against backspin.

The important part of this type of drill is not to just go through the motions with the shot against air. You need to treat it like an actual ball coming at you and do your absolute best to perform that shot, even when it's against air, with a full motion including the proper footwork and weight transfer. It seems like you can record yourself, so watch your own recordings to make sure you're not slacking. You can make this drill harder by having the robot rotate, and don't watch the robot when you're doing the shot against air so you won't know when the real shot will be going to.

 

[tabletennismaniac]

I see, so it can vary left and right between shots, but can't vary the length, speed, or spin, right?

Some have already made good suggestions, specifically incorporating movement before each shot. Let me give you something more specific. First, set your robot's pace to be half of what you'd like to practice at. For example, if you're intending to practice at a pace of ~80 balls/min, set it to ~40 balls/min or whatever setting your robot has the closest to. In between each shot, you would move to a different location and hit a shot against air, before moving back to hit the next shot against an actual ball fed by your robot. This can be done against different spins.

For example, let's say you're practicing the FH loop from your FH corner. Hit a FH shot against your robot's ball, then move to your left and hit a BH shot against air, then move back to your FH side to hit a FH loop. Now let's say you're practicing hitting a FH loop from your BH side. Hit a FH shot from your BH corner, then step to cover your wide FH against air, then move back to your BH corner to hit a FH shot from your BH corner. Another example, say you're practicing a BH loop. You can first step in to do a short push from your FH side against air, then quickly step back to your BH corner to do a BH loop against backspin.

The important part of this type of drill is not to just go through the motions with the shot against air. You need to treat it like an actual ball coming at you and do your absolute best to perform that shot, even when it's against air, with a full motion including the proper footwork and weight transfer. It seems like you can record yourself, so watch your own recordings to make sure you're not slacking. You can make this drill harder by having the robot rotate, and don't watch the robot when you're doing the shot against air so you won't know when the real shot will be going to.

Thanks so much for suggestion!
Yes, you are correct that it can only move from side to side.
I tend to avoid using it with static head so even if I only practice FH from FH side, I still set it to place the ball to the forehand and next to the middle of the forehand. Also, to physically change position of robot in between drills at least a bit.

 

[tabletennismaniac]

Good thread here dude, great Question.
Are you going to the table with a training partner and the intention of training your technique or are you trying to implement it in knock ups and club games?
Using a training partner as the first step to bringing your robot practice to the table is the best way to go. Your attempts to replicate the Robot drills with the variation in shots you will receive from another player will help a lot but you need a partner sympathetic to what you are trying to do.

I’m doing the latter - do drills with partner. I don’t expect it show up in matches and competitions yet, because in there there is no time to think about technique… but I still see difference between drillimg with robot and partner. It might be that I need more time and also consider/implement all the good suggestions I received from you guys.