USA Olympic selection process change

This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
8,010
7,245
17,701
Read 3 reviews
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
8,010
7,245
17,701
Read 3 reviews
They could maybe get away with the number one ranked male and female automatically qualify and the rest are through the trials. But one through trial and two hand picked is just not justified. Does any other country do it that way?

As I said earlier, I could not find any other country inside championship and 1st division (based on WTTTC) other than North Korea

Funny if Trump was to be told that they are no different to North Korea lol
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Dec 2014
22
43
68
Funny enough, I can't find who is on the HPC off USATT website.
I found the board or directors:
I found national team coaches:
Here you will see who is the HPD, but no where can I find HPC
Some where it says HPC consist of HPD, national coache/es, athlete representative

The USATT High Performance Committee is listed in the USATT Committee listing, toward the end. It's under the USATT heading. (I tried posting the link, but got this message: "An error has occurred larrytt! You must have 5 posts in order to post links. Your current post count is 1.")
-Larry Hodges
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
8,010
7,245
17,701
Read 3 reviews
The USATT High Performance Committee is listed in the USATT Committee listing, toward the end. It's under the USATT heading. (I tried posting the link, but got this message: "An error has occurred larrytt! You must have 5 posts in order to post links. Your current post count is 1."
-Larry Hodges

Hi Larry
Good to see you here too, you must post more

here is the link https://www.teamusa.org/usa-table-tennis/usatt/committees

High Performance Committee
Chair: Carl Danner
Stellan Bengtsson
Wen Hsu
Sean O'Neill
Erica Wu
Athlete Rep: Tahl Leibovitz
Athlete Rep: Tara Profitt


 
  • Like
Reactions: mart1nandersson
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
May 2017
112
92
221
I wonder who ultimately made the decision to change things. Based on some of the names on the HPC, I can't imagine them going along with this decision. I also wonder why this decision was made.

Perhaps someone is worried the "wrong" people make the team through the trials?

 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
Nov 2015
546
820
1,989
I wonder who ultimately made the decision to change things. Based on some of the names on the HPC, I can't imagine them going along with this decision. I also wonder why this decision was made.

Perhaps someone is worried the "wrong" people make the team through the trials?


I would speculate that USATT might strongly prefer a homegrown talent to be heavily represented on the team. Somewhat plausible logic is that it is better for long term development of the sport in the US. Just a guess, I'm not even sure this reasoning is true.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NextLevel
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
8,010
7,245
17,701
Read 3 reviews
I wonder who ultimately made the decision to change things. Based on some of the names on the HPC, I can't imagine them going along with this decision. I also wonder why this decision was made.

Perhaps someone is worried the "wrong" people make the team through the trials?


I would speculate that USATT might strongly prefer a homegrown talent to be heavily represented on the team. Somewhat plausible logic is that it is better for long term development of the sport in the US. Just a guess, I'm not even sure this reasoning is true.

"Wrong" - who has the rights to determine who is right and who is wrong?
I guess this is the shocking part of having this happening in America

Homegrown talent - that is a good possibility, but then again under USA law, is a foreign grown but neutralized American not American enough?
I guess no matter what angle they look at this, they need to have a solid legal counseling

But some how Wang Chen from what I read, she is targeting more towards the HPD
She made some personal attacks on HPD by quoting of his past in the German team
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
Nov 2015
546
820
1,989
...
I guess no matter what angle they look at this, they need to have a solid legal counseling

...

I am not a lawyer (IANAL), but I'm not sure USATT is in any legal jeopardy. If you read posts of Larry Hodges about discussions at the board meeting at his blog (see also earlier posts he references there):

http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/node/3033

He says it right there that it is HPD's responsibility to define selection criteria. He disagrees with it strongly, but still. They said 1(trial)+2(committee choice), others would've preferred 2-1 or even 3-0 scheme. What's for courts to decide?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: NextLevel
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
May 2017
112
92
221
I am not a lawyer (IANAL), but I'm not sure USATT is in any legal jeopardy. If you read posts of Larry Hodges about discussions at the board meeting at his blog, he says it right there that it is HPD's responsibility to define selection criteria. He disagrees with it strongly, but still. They said 1(trial)+2(committee choice), others would've preferred 2-1 or even 3-0 scheme. What's for courts to decide?

I wonder if she could prove that the rule changes were specifically made to target her. On the one hand, certain people think the older players are probably playing the best they can and they have no chance to medal. Therefore they want to give some of the younger players experience with the hope that they one day improve and get better. I disagree with this procedure but I can understand where they are coming from. With Wang Chen being an older player, and her still being the favorite to win against almost all of the younger players, this is one way to lower her chances of making the team. She basically has to be the best player to make the team.

It is also clear that she is a polarizing figure and some people really do not like her. I think she gets faulted way more unfairly than some of the more popular players. I hope the rule changes weren't made to target her or perhaps the overseas players who moved to the USA and became citizens. I don't know. I think the team should be composed of the best eligible players regardless of age or place of birth. Ric Flair once said "If you want to be the man, you have to beat the man" and I agree. You can't really be the man if you are appointed by committee.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tony's Table Tennis
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
8,010
7,245
17,701
Read 3 reviews
I am not a lawyer (IANAL), but I'm not sure USATT is in any legal jeopardy. If you read posts of Larry Hodges about discussions at the board meeting at his blog (see also earlier posts he references there):

http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/node/3033

He says it right there that it is HPD's responsibility to define selection criteria. He disagrees with it strongly, but still. They said 1(trial)+2(committee choice), others would've preferred 2-1 or even 3-0 scheme. What's for courts to decide?

if you have read my post earlier, someone on Wang Chen's corner has already commented and I feel it makes perfect sense.

Here is someone with a law degree from Harvard and Columbia commenting:

== Gail Kendalls comments ==
My comments below come directly from the Act of Congress establishing and funding the United States Olympic Committee.
The Act clearly requires that national governing bodies like the USATT must send the players who are currently our very best to represent our nation in each and every Pan Am and Olympic Game.

All our athletes must have an equal opportunity to participate in competition without discrimination. No sports organization like the USATT will continue to be recognized as a national governing body if it fails to comply with this requirement.
The customary open Trials clearly comply with US law; discretionary selection, by its nature, can never be proven to be compliant. I recommend that the USATT continue to use the customary open Trials in order to avoid disruptive controversy and possible injury to its standing as a national governing body.
Relevant excerpts from the law regarding the purpose of, and requirements for, the USOC and its national governing bodies follow:
36 U.S.C. Section 374(4):
“obtain for the United States, either directly or by delegation to the appropriate national governing body, the most competent amateur representation possible in each competition and event of the Olympic Games and of the Pan-American Games;”
36 U.S.C. Section 391(b):
"No amateur sports organization...is eligible to continue to be recognized as a national governing body unless it…provides an equal opportunity to amateur athletes…to participate in…competition…without discrimination on the basis of…age…or national origin….”
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
8,010
7,245
17,701
Read 3 reviews
I wonder if she could prove that the rule changes were specifically made to target her. On the one hand, certain people think the older players are probably playing the best they can and they have no chance to medal. Therefore they want to give some of the younger players experience with the hope that they one day improve and get better. I disagree with this procedure but I can understand where they are coming from. With Wang Chen being an older player, and her still being the favorite to win against almost all of the younger players, this is one way to lower her chances of making the team. She basically has to be the best player to make the team.

It is also clear that she is a polarizing figure and some people really do not like her. I think she gets faulted way more unfairly than some of the more popular players. I hope the rule changes weren't made to target her or perhaps the overseas players who moved to the USA and became citizens. I don't know. I think the team should be composed of the best eligible players regardless of age or place of birth. Ric Flair once said "If you want to be the man, you have to beat the man" and I agree. You can't really be the man if you are appointed by committee.

Is Wang Chen still good enough to win the trials?
I would imagine Lily Zhang is still top with Wang Chen there?
Wu Yue should make the team

so possible Wang Chen, Wu Yue and Lily?

you know, the nonsense 2 player rules, then you have the people saying "we want to give the future a chance". Well this applies for all countries.
Ie China, Ma Long and Zhang Jike, or you want the future, ML and FZD, or FZD and another future?

Tthe future must go take part in WTTC/WTTTC where you have more spots open for the country, for the Olympic 2 player spot, you must give your best players. Whats the point of sending weaker players to the Olympics?
With WTTTC, you can have your main 3 players and 2 future players
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
Nov 2015
546
820
1,989
...
Relevant excerpts from the law regarding the purpose of, and requirements for, the USOC and its national governing bodies follow:
36 U.S.C. Section 374(4):
“obtain for the United States, either directly or by delegation to the appropriate national governing body, the most competent amateur representation possible in each competition and event of the Olympic Games and of the Pan-American Games;”
36 U.S.C. Section 391(b):
"No amateur sports organization...is eligible to continue to be recognized as a national governing body unless it…provides an equal opportunity to amateur athletes…to participate in…competition…without discrimination on the basis of…age…or national origin….”

I did read it (and by the way, is Gail Kendall claiming to have TWO law degrees? Both from Harvard and Columbia? that's rather unusual...).

First citation says nothing about direct trials being the only way and appears to support USATT's right as a 'national governing body' to select athletes, responsibility USOC likely delegated to it. Second one: everyone still has an opportunity to qualify through trials, albeit to a single spot. If entire team was picked by committee - perhaps it would be relevant.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like current proposal. I just don't buy "this is illegal" argument yet.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NextLevel
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
May 2017
112
92
221
In my opinion, if the referees do not fault her into oblivion, a match with Lily could be anyone's game. I think Wang Chen can beat Wu Yue. I think if Zheng Jiaqi decides to play it would be a tough match for Wang Chen. As you know certain players just seem to give other players trouble for various reasons. Amy Wang is playing well and improving but even though Wang Chen lost the last time they played, I think Wang Chen would still be the favorite. There are also other players who are in the mix and during the trials unknown players decide to come out of the woodwork and do well.

But these are just my opinions. What I think really doesn't matter and I could be completely wrong. That is why there should be a tournament to see who is the best on that day and who gets to go to the Olympics or World Championships.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tony's Table Tennis
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
8,010
7,245
17,701
Read 3 reviews
I did read it (and by the way, is Gail Kendall claiming to have TWO law degrees? Both from Harvard and Columbia? that's rather unusual...).

First citation says nothing about direct trials being the only way and appears to support USATT's right as a 'national governing body' to select athletes, responsibility USOC likely delegated to it. Second one: everyone still has an opportunity to qualify through trials, albeit to a single spot. If entire team was picked by committee - perhaps it would be relevant.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like current proposal. I just don't buy "this is illegal" argument yet.

Well, Gail sure knows more than me of US law, I haven't even set foot in USA before, so what do I know.

But say, she does have 2 law degrees (and yes that is how I read it with Bruce introduced her to the facebook group/pages). Maybe its undergrad + postgrad etc, who knows,

But how I read it or if Gail was my legal advisor, I would make sure discretionary selection is not more than 50% of the team. 51% of discretionary selecting the team could lead to
"by its nature, can never be proven to be compliant" in the court.

I would make sure 51% or more is based on "The customary open Trials (clearly comply with US law)"
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
8,010
7,245
17,701
Read 3 reviews
In my opinion, if the referees do not fault her into oblivion, a match with Lily could be anyone's game. I think Wang Chen can beat Wu Yue. I think if Zheng Jiaqi decides to play it would be a tough match for Wang Chen. As you know certain players just seem to give other players trouble for various reasons. Amy Wang is playing well and improving but even though Wang Chen lost the last time they played, I think Wang Chen would still be the favorite. There are also other players who are in the mix and during the trials unknown players decide to come out of the woodwork and do well.

But these are just my opinions. What I think really doesn't matter and I could be completely wrong. That is why there should be a tournament to see who is the best on that day and who gets to go to the Olympics or World Championships.

I actually should of ask Jiaqi why she stopped playing.
Maybe 1 olympics was enough, and now she is living her dream job, being the coach/training partner of Cheng I Ching
 
Top